DJM, the end.

[maico]

4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

And we are just at the beginning. At this rate, the costs will top out at £100k+ and there does not seem to be anything llike enough assets in the Company to pay that - never mind any return to creditors.

Yes, but in my view that should always be The Insolvency Service, not private practitioners.

 

Who pays the liquidators fees if a limited liability company only has assets of say a computer and everything else is rented and leased ?

[royaloak]

1 hour ago, maico said:

 

Who pays the liquidators fees if a limited liability company only has assets of say a computer and everything else is rented and leased ?

It would very quickly become clear there isnt anything to liquidate so they wouldnt spend any time sorting it out.

[DavidH]

1 hour ago, maico said:

 

 

Fast cars perhaps... https://davejonesphotography.zenfolio.com/p717717743

That's DJ in the Aston Martin

 

There are a couple of impressive pictures of northern lights in Iceland in there, however.

[royaloak]

Just now, DavidH said:

 

There are a couple of impressive pictures of northern lights in Iceland in there, however.

So the bloke had a holiday, big deal!

 

As very few of the last 30 or so posts have been 'on topic' about the demise of DJM maybe its best to lock the thread because it is fast becoming rather personal again!

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

I am afraid you misunderstand the part played by the insolvency service.  Do a Google and you will find the gov.uk pages - which will help you find a private practitioner in your area.

 

Their function is to ease the process and to oversee the practice of the private companies that cover insolvency.  It is not to do the insolvency work itself.  

 

It is, if you like, the difference between Ofcom and ITV.  ITV do the broadcasting, Ofcom oversee that broadcasts meet the necessary standards and laws.

 

Andy,

I do not misunderstand at all. I nearly went to work for the Insolvency Service in the 1990s.

I know how things are. My post was about how they should be.

Since the 90s, I have been involved in a major insolvency case representing 00's on creditors. It rapidly became clear to me that:

1) The Insolvency Practitioners were not very competent;

2) So long as their fees got covered, they were not that bothered about realising maximum value for the assets.

[truffy]

12 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

1) The Insolvency Practitioners were not very competent;

2) So long as their fees got covered, they were not that bothered about realising maximum value for the assets.

Same could be said for management consultants.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

Am l right in thinking that nothing has been produced with Crowdfunders  money? 

 

Reading this and associated posts would indicate that tens if not hundreds of thousand pounds have been deposited in various projects.

 

Is this correct?

 

I have read indicators that there is nothing left in the pot for those who paid some substantial deposits and smaller amounts which add up to a great deal of cash. 

 

Nothing of substance seems to have been achieved. If this is true and not conjecture, where has the money gone, on butties at Crewe? 

 

If if this is the case, it certainly proves that there is absolutely no such thing as a free lunch. 

Apart from the Class 71 - which was delivered - some progress was made with the N gauge Class 17 until it fell into the fallout from the factory dispute and the money was refunded.

 

Where the money has gone will obviously remain an open question unless the liquidators answer it and as has already been noted they might but they might not go into great detail if they find there is nothing there to meet their complete costs.   As they are now aware there was crowdfunded money going into the company they might well try to establish how much it was and what happened to it - especially if any recent work done by factories has resulted in those factories being creditors.

 

The simple answer remains that none of this will become public until the liquidators conclude their process - if it becomes public then.   So we might never know what happened to the money although simple arithmetic based on what we can estimate as the number of crowd funders (taking the example of other projects - e.g. N gauge APT = 400 needed in total according to information posted by DJM in April this year) suggests that it could be a considerable sum.  Whatever else has happened the crowdfunders' money has gone into DJM with seemingly little to show for it beyond the company going into voluntary liquidation and it is hardly surprising that those who stumped up that money have an interest in knowing what happened to it.

 

DJM was a one man band with a sole proprietor/Director for most of its existence and it seems to me inevitable that any comments about the way in which the company was run and its repeated and numerous failures to deliver what was promised will revolve around or come back to that person in some way or another be it over ambition, over promising,  lack of competence in management, or even bad luck, or whatever else caused the company to fail.   Sorry but that can't be avoided if open debate and discussion is to take place. 

[melmoth]

9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

As they are now aware there was crowdfunded money going into the company they might well try to establish how much it was and what happened to it

 

 

DJM was a one man band with a sole proprietor/Director for most of its existence and it seems to me inevitable that any comments about the way in which the company was run and its repeated and numerous failures to deliver what was promised will revolve around or come back to that person in some way or another be it over ambition, over promising,  lack of competence in management, or even bad luck, or whatever else caused the company to fail.   Sorry but that can't be avoided if open debate and discussion is to take place. 

 

Apologies Mike for hacking your post about, but given all the ambiguities surrounding T&Cs, EOIs, bouncing emails, partial refunds etc etc, is anyone sure at the moment that monies paid actually went to DJM (The Company) rather than to Dave Jones (The Individual)?

[7013]

“The simple answer remains that none of this will become public until the liquidators conclude their process - if it becomes public then.   So we might never know what happened to the money.”

Lets face it, if the liquidators report back to Dave Jones he is not going to be breaking his neck to share any news. 

There in all probability be no money to pay those who paid deposits back. 

[dogbox321]

1 hour ago, royaloak said:

So the bloke had a holiday, big deal!

 

As very few of the last 30 or so posts have been 'on topic' about the demise of DJM maybe its best to lock the thread because it is fast becoming rather personal again!

 

Sorry, but when people loose money, and there is one person at the top that is promising the world and has regrettably delivered little, then by virtue, its going to get personal!

 

Most communication of the company was in the context of "I".  If everything had gone "well" then no doubt they would have been basking in the glory, and rightly so.  As it is, it didn't.  So whose to blame?

 

Likewise - so far every other crowdfunding venture has worked, and the businesses are being successful, and are mainly operated by people from outside the industry, so how come with years of industry experience, its not been possible to pull it off?  I feel sorry that the venture has not worked, but loyal people backed it and put trust in the entity, and have lost out through it.  There should be accountability for the resultant situation.

 

Regards,

 

C.

[Widnes Model Centre]

55 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Apart from the Class 71 - which was delivered -

 

 

Hi Mike, I have only gone a few pages into the Class 71 announcement. DJM talks about a Kickstarter Project and then I can see orders were to be placed via Kernow.( The link to Kernow ordering has now gone from their web pages.)

 

Was the Kickstarter platform used for that or did it continue with Kernow taking the orders and or payment? Or did it become a Crowdfunder not using Kickstarter?

[Steamport Southport]

12 minutes ago, dogbox321 said:

 

Sorry, but when people loose money, and there is one person at the top that is promising the world and has regrettably delivered little, then by virtue, its going to get personal!

 

Most communication of the company was in the context of "I".  If everything had gone "well" then no doubt they would have been basking in the glory, and rightly so.  As it is, it didn't.  So whose to blame?

 

Likewise - so far every other crowdfunding venture has worked, and the businesses are being successful, and are mainly operated by people from outside the industry, so how come with years of industry experience, its not been possible to pull it off?  I feel sorry that the venture has not worked, but loyal people backed it and put trust in the entity, and have lost out through it.  There should be accountability for the resultant situation.

 

Regards,

 

C.

 

Are you quite sure about that?

 

Hasn't one of the major crowdfunding organisations just gone bankrupt owing millions?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PledgeMusic

 

 

Jason

[spamcan61]

I would think dogbox was specifically referring to toy trains, there are plenty of failed crowdfunding projects out there in the wider world in many different areas.

Edited June 13, 2019 by spamcan61
.

[The Stationmaster]

27 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

Hi Mike, I have only gone a few pages into the Class 71 announcement. DJM talks about a Kickstarter Project and then I can see orders were to be placed via Kernow.( The link to Kernow ordering has now gone from their web pages.)

 

Was the Kickstarter platform used for that or did it continue with Kernow taking the orders and or payment? Or did it become a Crowdfunder not using Kickstarter?

The only way to follow it is from the thread I'm afraid.  At some time in the build up the reference to Kickstarter vanished and it was then presented as crowdfunded although quite how that was arranged I don't know offhand.

[7013]

I believe the CL 71 was ‘hailed’ as the first crowdfunded model in the UK

[darrel]

I placed an order for a class 92. I got an invoice which I paid. I never had any other communication fro DJ models not even a receipt. No updates zilch.

Now either he didnt add me to a mailing list, he forgot to send anything out.

On the other hand I have pre ordered the accruscale class 92 I got a receipt and had regular email updates. 

I find the way DJ models treated me odd to say the least.

[08-362]

9 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

With a class of over 400 locomotives,all in various liveries, makes the Hunslet 18" Austerity a very attractive proposition. If you leave out the fictitious liveries, there is/are nearly 200 identifiable bona-fide liveries to be seen. 

 

Perhaps all is not lost, after all!

 

Ian. 

 

I've been interested in an N scale Austerity pretty much since I got into this hobby back in 2015; I'm under the impression that Dave's plans to make this model surfaced shortly before.

 

Knowing the quoted statistics, it baffles me that there isn't any other version at this scale, discounting the old Graham Farish model. Especially given the rise in popularity for industrial locomotives in the last few years.

 

I'd held up hope that Dave's model would get past the planning stage, but we know that's not happening now. Hopefully somebody else might fill this rather large gap? I believe Dapol are working on/have expressed interest in an Austerity at O scale, maybe they can shrink it in much the same manner as they did their Terrier as part of the process of producing the Rails OO model?

 

Apologies for the thread drift.

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

Hi Mike, I have only gone a few pages into the Class 71 announcement. DJM talks about a Kickstarter Project and then I can see orders were to be placed via Kernow.( The link to Kernow ordering has now gone from their web pages.)

 

Was the Kickstarter platform used for that or did it continue with Kernow taking the orders and or payment? Or did it become a Crowdfunder not using Kickstarter?

 

The 71 orders and payments was handled entirely by Kernow. DJM was paid as milestones were achieved. A crowdfunder could pull out and be refunded if desired. The 74 had a similar arrangement but no milestone was ever reached and after 3 years Kernow felt correctly a moral obigation to pull the plug. This was last year just before the paypal issues and equally just after Dave stated here that it is a crowdfunding project and you cannot pull out and be refunded, something quickly proved false given the T&Cs on Kernows website. Dave said there was enough orders to get to tooling, which effectively means it was actually under subscribed (because production is a big sum too).

 

Edit: he did consider Kickstarter at first but that imposes a time constraint too short for this industry. And I had the impression at the time that he could not figure out how to use it.

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by JSpencer

[meil]

1 hour ago, dogbox321 said:

 

Sorry, but when people loose money, and there is one person at the top that is promising the world and has regrettably delivered little, then by virtue, its going to get personal!

 

Most communication of the company was in the context of "I".  If everything had gone "well" then no doubt they would have been basking in the glory, and rightly so.  As it is, it didn't.  So whose to blame?

 

Likewise - so far every other crowdfunding venture has worked, and the businesses are being successful, and are mainly operated by people from outside the industry, so how come with years of industry experience, its not been possible to pull it off?  I feel sorry that the venture has not worked, but loyal people backed it and put trust in the entity, and have lost out through it.  There should be accountability for the resultant situation.

 

Regards,

 

C.

Limited liability companies are required to show Limited after their name for good reason. It is there as a warning to all who deal with then that their liability is limited.

[Colin_McLeod]

3 hours ago, royaloak said:

So the bloke had a holiday, big deal!

 

As very few of the last 30 or so posts have been 'on topic' about the demise of DJM maybe its best to lock the thread because it is fast becoming rather personal again!

 

Here we go again.  Locking a thread is a decision for the Mods.  

[Colin_McLeod]

 

I put this on the refund thread, but in case it is useful here as some members are having problems opening the letter to creditors.

 

The e mail contains a Word and a pdf version of the same letter.

Phil (Mod) has asked that we don't publish the letter on RMweb but for your assistance I attach a one page Word document which is just the proof of debt form.

This should be filled in and sent to as soon as possible with documentary evidence that you are a creditor.  I used my order/receipt fro DJmodels as my documentary evidence

 

Stephenie Adams

CG & Co

1 Booth Street

Manchester

MC2 4DU

Proof of debt form.docx

[john new]

17 minutes ago, meil said:

Limited liability companies are required to show Limited after their name for good reason. It is there as a warning to all who deal with then that their liability is limited.

Not strictly the case. The modern CLG option has been taken by both the SLS & the YMRS and I am a Director for both. We have to display our limited liability status in several ways but not describe ourselves as Ltd. 

Edited June 13, 2019 by john new

[truffy]

25 minutes ago, meil said:

Limited liability companies are required to show Limited after their name for good reason. It is there as a warning to all who deal with then that their liability is limited.

 

8 minutes ago, john new said:

Not strictly the case. The modern CLG option has been taken by both the SLS & the YMRS and I am a Director for both. We have to display our limited liability status in several ways but not describe ourselves as Ltd. 

OK, so a limited company doesn't have to state it as part of the company name. But it can, and in the case of DJM did. So the rest of meil's post is on point?

[truffy]

1 hour ago, darrel said:

On the other hand I have pre ordered the accruscale class 92 I got a receipt and had regular email updates. 

Professional, customer-focussed.

1 hour ago, darrel said:

I placed an order for a class 92. I got an invoice which I paid. I never had any other communication fro DJ models not even a receipt. No updates zilch.

Ummm...'nuff sed.

[adb968008]

As mentioned the 71 was all via Kernow.

 

The king, 92 and APT were crowdfunded via DJ.

The 17 was crowd funded and refunded.

 

What did crowd funders get for their money..

as far as I can see...

 

Scan of a class 92

Scan of an APT

2x CADs of a class 92

2x CADs of an APT (2 cars)

1x CAD of a king

1x CAD of a 17

1x EP tooling of a class 17

A lot of registered IP designs

Presumably legal advice and fees to guide the events leading up to May 1st.

The fees of liquidators from the remains.

 

Anything else I’ve missed ?

 

Now if DJ had got access back to the J94 / 17/ 71 tooling, would it have changed the situation.. ?  without cash he’s only got access to lumps of metal that need none-crowdfunded cash to use. Now if he did have cash to use those toolings, we wouldn’t be here now surely ?

 

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by adb968008