DJM, the end.

[njee20]

Fair enough. You're just about the 3rd person to ask why Hatton's are still listing their products.

[Colin_McLeod]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

When the "consideration" (payment) is made is not material to a contract being in existence.

 

DToS made an "offer". RL "accepted"  and a "consideration" was set. Ergo - a contract.

 

There was, presumably, a similar contract between DJM and DToS.

 

DToS made an invitation to treat.

 

They said the price was TBA.  Therefore there was no agreed consideration and therefore no contract at that point. 

 

By your logic they could have come back later and announced that the price was £6,000,000. Would you consider that the aspiring owner of an APT was committed to buying?  I think not.  That's why the consideration must be agreed before there is a contract in law.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thanks for that clarification.

 

Was there a deposit paid?

[AndrewC]

Crowdfunding is a funny word really. Its legal definition is quite vague. Generally a crowdfund is handled by a third party like CrowdCube and not directly by the business trying to raise the money. If I order a model that is "crowdfunded" and expect a model when it is produced, technically it is not a crowdfunded enterprise. It is in fact a deposit on a specific material item. The phrase crowd funded just makes it appear hip & trendy and that you are buying into the business ethos. I think this is what conclusion the liquidators have come to. Each deposit is registered against a specific product. However, if DJM had said, "crowdfund my business" and you will get a ball cap, pen, and discounts on a future model(s), then you've invested in the business as a non-equity shareholder and aren't an actual creditor, even if you never get your pen. 

 

I've witnessed similar scenarios with 3 local beer related businesses. One crowdfunded the expansion of their brewery. Spent more than they needed to, ran into production/landlord issues and they are now fecked. Many people are out 10 to 20 times what has been lost on DJM. I know one person who lost over £12k. One distributor crowdfunded a specific set of equipment for a bottle shop. They overextended too fast and lost several clients in short order. The crowdfunders have argued to the liquidator that they "own" the custom fridges that the fund was specifically set up to purchase. The jury is still out on that but they are being treated as creditors as the intention was to pay back the funders eventually. The third raised funds to open a bar/taproom. Their product suffered as all the attention went into the taproom, now everyone lost out. 

 

On the other side of the coin are the nice people at Brewdog. Their idea of crowdfunding is called equity for punks. That means crowdfunders are actually buying equity in the company with registered shares. 

 

Getting back to DJM it is at least a bit of good news that hopefully all those who put down deposits will get some of their money back. 

[The Pilotman]

I ordered two Kings last year, deposit of £135 paid by credit card. I contacted CG&Co last week and they replied today; I got the same response as Karhedron above. Just spoke to my credit card company who took the details and asked for the email from CG&Co to be forwarded to them. They said I was the second person to call them regarding DJM and it sounds like the refund should be made in about a week. All very straightforward.

[Trains4U]

49 minutes ago, Littlethorpe said:

On a more prosaic level I wonder if the Mermaids & Sharks promised for November delivery will ever appear? Personally I imagine not as manufacturing is unlikely to have started yet. On this basis I have just ordered several Mermaids in Dutch Livery from Hattons. Not my era but I will repaint them in Black and/or Indian Red.

 

I think you can assume that they won't appear.

 

I have Sharks and Mermaids on order with DJM

I've had zero communication from DJM - nor do I now expect any.  Trains4U is not owed any money and has not paid any deposits, so there is no reason for the liquidators to contact us other than as a courtesy (and I don't expect that to be honest)    I expect this to be the same with all retailers concerned.

 

I'm not sure why everyone expects the retailers to know what has happened?  I found out about the insolvency here on RMWeb, and via word of mouth.
We don't get notification from the Gazette (You have to look for it) and there are lots more interesting things to be doing than monitoring the progress of a minor supplier.  So if a retailer isn't actively looking for the information, they won't be aware of it.

I'm not sure either why people seem to have their pants in a wad because Hatton's and other retailers aren't making instant changes to their websites.   In the grand scheme of things, it really isn't either urgent or important, and I'm sure they'll get around to removing the items and cancelling pre-orders in good time.

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Trains4U

[wombatofludham]

At the risk of introducing more thread drift, and reading earlier comments about the APT model and some of the choices made by Mr Jones, he has previously been described as an "enthusiast".  The failure of his business suggests to me the potential perils of an enthusiast deciding what to produce based on lots of shouty enthusiast's wishlists, at least without some hard headed business acumen and an ability to separate the enthusiasm and the business.

 

It also probably explains why companies like Bachmann and Hornby do also from time to time ignore the clarion cries for a pet freak and produce the more "mundane" and "run of the mill" usually to cries of "boring" from enthusiasts.

 

DJM's sad demise should be a salutary warning that it isn't always wise to combine enthusiasm and business unless you can separate to two things in your mind, which let's face it, we enthusiasts (clue: the word says it all) are notoriously bad at doing.  It's interesting that those smaller companies seemingly making a good fist of being an enthusiast and a business tend not to be one man bands - having a business partner even if they too are an enthusiast must add in a useful check and balance.

[royaloak]

39 minutes ago, AndrewC said:

Getting back to DJM it is at least a bit of good news that hopefully all those who put down deposits will get some of their money back. 

Probably a few pence per pound if anything at all if its from the liquidators, obviously if its through the CC company it will be a full refund.

 

Edit-

Just looked and I paid through Paypal on 05/04/18, the money coming out of my current account so no claim back for me!

Edited June 11, 2019 by royaloak

[AndrewC]

Just now, royaloak said:

Probably a few pence per pound if anything at all.

With the liquidator supporting the creditor stance and providing email backup for people to claim from their credit card, many should get back their full deposits. Those who paid by debit card or other method may be SoL for as you say, more than a few pence. It remains to be seen what PayPal will respond with. 

[Matt C]

5 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Probably a few pence per pound if anything at all.

If its refunded by the CC company then they will get a full refund, if from funds left in DJM then poss only a few pence 

[Yorkshire Square]

31 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Thanks for that clarification.

 

Was there a deposit paid?

 

16 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

I ordered an APT from DToS at a time when the website made no mention of crowdfunding, just that it was being developed in conjunction with DJM. It said to place a pre-order and if enough people are interested a deposit would be asked for. Be interesting if they tried to claim I was not a creditor.

 

Roy

 

5 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

I didn't paid any money to DToS. As I said I placed an order with them for a 14-car APT with only mention of a deposit being due later if enough orders were received. My point was that at the point of ordering (i.e. when the contract was formed) there was no mention of crowdfunding.

 

See: http://web.archive.org/web/20171201161322/http://durhamtrainsofstanley.co.uk/my_store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=371

 

Roy

 

I'm not sure.

 

RL thinks he's a creditor, but subsequently says "I didn't paid (sic) any money". 

 

Both positions cannot be correct.

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, truffy said:

One other point: the DJM filing at Companies House notes his partner as a manager for the NHS. So the household wasn't entirely dependent on DJ drawing a salary from DJM.

 

We are digging far too much into his personal life, but I doubt my partner would support me running a business with no salary (let alone a loss making one).

The last couple or three years only had crowdfunding projects bringing in money, said projects being not for profit but DJ getting just a set of tools to depreciate over time. Then there were shows selling stock items and rejects from previous projects but probably not enough in revenue (we did a lot of shows at the The Signal Box, and while it puts out the flag, you would survive from it. Indeed some were done at a loss purely just to support certain clubs and promote the shop to the area - but we still had a shop).

Unless he had another income, he was running a business on fumes.

[truffy]

5 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

We are digging far too much into his personal life,

True enough. My comment was a response to one or two posts (that I couldn't be bothered going back to) to the effect that DJ was solely dependent on crowdfunding. In reality, only he and the liquidator know the truth.

[truffy]

20 minutes ago, Yorkshire Square said:

RL thinks he's a creditor, but subsequently says "I didn't paid (sic) any money". 

 

Both positions cannot be correct.

He said he hadn't paid any money to DToS. IIRC, all financial transactions were with DJM.

 

So, both positions can be correct.

[Roy Langridge]

48 minutes ago, Yorkshire Square said:

 

 

 

I'm not sure.

 

RL thinks he's a creditor, but subsequently says "I didn't paid (sic) any money". 

 

Both positions cannot be correct.

 

As truffy said  - I posted that I paid no money to DToS, not that I paid no money.

Roy

[Yorkshire Square]

24 minutes ago, truffy said:

He said he hadn't paid any money to DToS. IIRC, all financial transactions were with DJM.

 

So, both positions can be correct.

 

But that's not what he said.

[Roy Langridge]

1 minute ago, Yorkshire Square said:

 

But that's not what he said.

 

If you read the whole thread related to my post, you will see I was replying to somebody who said that if I had paid DToS, my issue was with them - when all I had actually said was that I ordered from DToS (as was initially the requirement).

 

As you will see in other posts I have said I paid my deposit, but as Truffy said, all invoices were issued by DJ Models.

Roy

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Yorkshire Square said:

 

 

 

I'm not sure.

 

RL thinks he's a creditor, but subsequently says "I didn't paid (sic) any money". 

 

Both positions cannot be correct.

 

And he would be a creditor of DToS, not DJM.

[Roy Langridge]

7 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

And he would be a creditor of DToS, not DJM.

 

On that basis, are we all not Creditors of DToS as they took the orders?

 

The invoice was issued by DJ Models and the money owed was paid to them - as was latter clarified by DToS.

Roy

Edited June 11, 2019 by Roy Langridge

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

On that basis, are we all not Creditors of DToS as they took the orders?

 

The invoice was issued by DJ Models and the money owed was paid to them - as was latter clarified by DToS.

Roy

 

Sorry, Roy, that I had not picked up on that detail before. It makes the situation rather muddy contractually.

 

Regardless of who got the money in the end, who took the payment from you? And by what method?

[Roy Langridge]

Just now, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Sorry, Roy, that I had not picked up on that detail before. It makes the situation rather muddy contractually.

 

Regardless of who got the money in the end, who took the payment from you? And by what method? 

 

DJ Models and by PayPal. I was one of those never refunded over the "PayPal saga".

Roy

[Matt C]

Your money never went through Dtos, they would only refund you moneys paid THROUGH them

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

DJ Models and by PayPal. I was one of those never refunded over the "PayPal saga".

Roy

 

I only use Paypal myself as a seller. I don't have a good understanding of how it works from the customer end. But it seems to me that you need to reclaim again from Paypal or from your card provider if you used that to pay Paypal. Paypal will need to get themselves registered as a creditor of DJM.

[BR(S)]

2 hours ago, Western Aviator said:

I ordered two Kings last year, deposit of £135 paid by credit card. I contacted CG&Co last week and they replied today; I got the same response as Karhedron above. Just spoke to my credit card company who took the details and asked for the email from CG&Co to be forwarded to them. They said I was the second person to call them regarding DJM and it sounds like the refund should be made in about a week. All very straightforward.

 

Did you make the payment on your credit card via PayPal?  All of mine were done this way, but there was some question earlier in the thread as to whether this is covered under Section 75.

 

For the record, I have also just e-mailed CG&Co with details of my order and payments and had an instant response from them about contacting my credit card company.

[Roy Langridge]

Credit card via PayPal, yes. I have sent an email to PayPal, but no reply yet. The problem is we are well outside their claims window.

 

Roy