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DJM, the end.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Apologies I wasn't pointing out the seller (who i’ve no relation) but the situation..

 

£299 is by far the most expensive Ive ever seen a DJ class 71, ever.

 

ebay shows the most expensive one sold as £126, including sound.

average sold prices...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_Complete=1&_nkw=class+71+dj+models&_sop=15

There is an identical one for sale at £120.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DJ-MODELS-HATTONS-00-GAUGE-OO71-002HAT-CLASS-71-BR-GREEN-E5015-SPECIAL-ED/283093249084?epid=23022391677&hash=item41e9ac2c3c:g:ScUAAOSwwsZbavwD

The going rate is £80.

 

Hattons still sell Class 71’s for £99

https://www.hattons.co.uk/206914/dj_models_dave_jones_oo71_002hat_class_71_e5015_in_br_southern_region_light_green_with_full_golden_arrow_headboar/stockdetail.aspx

 

if you think £299 is reasonable, then we differ in opinion, and by accounts, evidence too.

The seller can of course ask whatever price they chose.

 

I can't defend £299, but they have sold for more than £126 on ebay - you have used the completed listing view which only shows the past 60 days IIRC. Oh, and the £126 did not have sound - at that price I would have had it!

 

Roy

Edited by Roy Langridge
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18 minutes ago, Great Western said:

Could a Mod explain why my comment has been removed ? 

 

 

 

You had to ask???? :) :)

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Its a shame it all ending so badly ,i am sure Dave didnt want it this way .

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32 minutes ago, friscopete said:

Its a shame it all ending so badly ,i am sure Dave didnt want it this way .

Of course he didn't, but what is has shown is his lack of a sound business mind. He may have decent design theory (but in practice wasnt perfect or faultless) but when it comes to his business model, it has proven woefully inadequate. He just could not make it work as a one man band and try and deliver everyone's wishlist. That's what happens when you try to be everyone's mate.

 

cheers

 

Shane

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If it really is the end then the Administrators will want to liquidate as much cash from the remnants as possible. 

 

Is there any possibility that existing N gauge tooling (wagons and the Class 17 mainly) could be snapped up by one of the main manufacturers and incorporated into their existing ranges?

 

At the end of the day I am still hoping the Class 17 will see the light of day, the worse case scenario though is the moulds being scrapped which would be a tragedy. 

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6 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

If it really is the end then the Administrators will want to liquidate as much cash from the remnants as possible. 

 

Is there any possibility that existing N gauge tooling (wagons and the Class 17 mainly) could be snapped up by one of the main manufacturers and incorporated into their existing ranges?

 

At the end of the day I am still hoping the Class 17 will see the light of day, the worse case scenario though is the moulds being scrapped which would be a tragedy. 

 

Given the relationship between DJM and the commissioning factory, I suspect that whatever happens next is more likely to lead to the 17 appearing than the status quo being maintained.

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To his credit, I don't think he ever got round to asking for second payments for these projects. 

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Posted (edited)

Looking hard for a silver lining, at least it appears my quandary as to whether to cut my losses or pay a next £250 installment has been resolved. Such a shame that it has come to this.

 

Roy

Edited by Roy Langridge
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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

Looking hard for a silver lining, at least it appears my quandary as to whether to cut my losses or pay a next £250 installment has been resolved. Such a shame that it has come to this.

 

Roy

Same here. Not just the second £250, but also the third and fourth.

 

I took a decision mid May and bought three Hornby APTs which I plan to cut and shut into a 10 car set.

 

I had been looking forward to the state of the art APT-P and it is a shame if it is not going to happen.

 

I am, however, also looking forward to some modelling on my Hornby APTs.

Edited by Colin_McLeod
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Posted (edited)

Having worked at the Insolvency Service myself I am of the honest opinion that we should wait for news. There is no evidence of what exactly is happening so Let’s wait and see what turns up shall we?

Edited by Edge
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To reduce potential workloads I have locked all other DJM sub-forum topics for now, apart from one discussing credit card reclaims.

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You never know, it may be that some form of Phoenix rises from these ashes.  The money spent by forum members may have gone, but what it paid for remains, has some value and may emerge in time.

 

 

I think it was around this time last year that he lost his father; a pretty crappy 12 months by anyone's measurement.

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Many of us could be pleasantly surprised if DJM took business advice and decided to stop before it was too late. There is a slim possibility that there is a clean liquidation I.e. assets exceed liabilities. Highly unlikely. At least Dave may be ceasing before he got into really hot water and faced possible criminal allegations. This is why I’m glad he didn’t ask for more money and then still couldn’t deliver.

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Posted (edited)

shall we provide Dave with the benefit of the doubt for a moment, him moving a trading address to an accountancy firm (not the most outrageous or uncommon move it must be said) triggering a veritable landslide of speculation on here is hardly likely to improve matters for him.

 

assuming for a moment that there is a legitimate business reason for this (rather than insolvency of some kind - for which I would remind everyone there is currently no evidence at all) then some comments made here could do irreparable harm to both Dave and his business. Like it or not, he has the right to run his business in his own way and we have no right to judge him for it. Let’s wait and see what the reality of the situation is shall we?

 

Edited by Edge
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After Dave's recent visit to China, one might have expected good news on all fronts. Instead, we have had total silence. This suggests strongly to me that DJM was slowly but surely grinding to a halt, even before this latest suggestion of serious financial problems.

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Sorry to hear crowdfunders might have lost money, I do just want to flag up the lesser known consumer armour tool of 'chargeback' which covers all debit cards and payments through 3rd parties (PayPal) for any amount. One of the central claims of the scheme, jointly agreed by AMEX, Mastercard and Visa, is to recover your money if a company does into administration. I have used this against a shop which went into administration before it could deliver and my card provided settled my loss as a gesture to my continued custom with them. 

 

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/visa-mastercard-chargeback/

 

I do wonder, as DJM changed their T&Cs the other year how this effects different crowdfunders, one could imagine a possible joint small claims court pursuit after Dave Jones to recover funds, especially if he publicly/privately assured a customer that they could be refunded. I believe this has been a grey area with DJM for sometime, whether your money was returnable or not. A central reason to why I never supported, as I was just not clear with the T&Cs.

 

Also, in experiences of dealing with PayPal over irregularities, I have found the personal touch of a courteous phone conversation with them usually results in an automatic/online/robot decision being overturned and them doing a 'one off' gesture to satisfy your 'custom'. So considering calling them, rather than email or doing via their online disputes. 

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5 minutes ago, Armchair Modeller said:

After Dave's recent visit to China, one might have expected good news on all fronts. Instead, we have had total silence. This suggests strongly to me that DJM was slowly but surely grinding to a halt, even before this latest suggestion of serious financial problems.

 

(Picking on a convenient post to quote...)... 

 

Is there any evidence Dave’s been to China recently?

 

I’ve not seen where he’s said that; I’ve only seen speculation by others.

 

Please point it out if I’ve missed it.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

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China doesn't really "do" intellectual property, so the chances are that any designs will eventually pop up under a different label.  DJ could sue the distributor and get an injunction banning the sale of any stolen designs in the UK, but that takes big money for IP lawyers. 

 

As an analogy, Brompton Bicycle successfully did this when Neobike (who had access to the technical drawings) produced unauthorised clones of their product in Taiwan, but Brompton Bicycle has fairly deep pockets.  I believe the clones are still sold in overseas markets where there is little realistic prospect of suing Neobike.  There is, of course, little market for OO gauge British outline railway models outside the UK.

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Ely_South said:

 

(Picking on a convenient post to quote...)... 

 

Is there any evidence Dave’s been to China recently?

 

I’ve not seen where he’s said that; I’ve only seen speculation by others.

 

Please point it out if I’ve missed it.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

It was mentioned on the DJM website - in the news section IIRC.

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24 minutes ago, Ely_South said:

 

(Picking on a convenient post to quote...)... 

 

Is there any evidence Dave’s been to China recently?

 

I’ve not seen where he’s said that; I’ve only seen speculation by others.

 

Please point it out if I’ve missed it.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

It was actually in the blog section (correction from my last post

 

Availability (out of the office)

by djones | May 7, 2019 | Blog

Hi everyone, I'm not back in the 'office' until the 17th of May, so any news will probably come at or slightly after that date. However rest assured i am trying to get answers, results and an update together for you on the various current projects. Dave

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27 minutes ago, 159220 said:

Sorry to hear crowdfunders might have lost money, I do just want to flag up the lesser known consumer armour tool of 'chargeback' which covers all debit cards and payments through 3rd parties (PayPal) for any amount. One of the central claims of the scheme, jointly agreed by AMEX, Mastercard and Visa, is to recover your money if a company does into administration. I have used this against a shop which went into administration before it could deliver and my card provided settled my loss as a gesture to my continued custom with them. 

 

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/visa-mastercard-chargeback/

 

I do wonder, as DJM changed their T&Cs the other year how this effects different crowdfunders, one could imagine a possible joint small claims court pursuit after Dave Jones to recover funds, especially if he publicly/privately assured a customer that they could be refunded. I believe this has been a grey area with DJM for sometime, whether your money was returnable or not. A central reason to why I never supported, as I was just not clear with the T&Cs.

 

Also, in experiences of dealing with PayPal over irregularities, I have found the personal touch of a courteous phone conversation with them usually results in an automatic/online/robot decision being overturned and them doing a 'one off' gesture to satisfy your 'custom'. So considering calling them, rather than email or doing via their online disputes. 

Chargebacks are an inter bank agreement and handling process for dealing with disputes, there is no legal requirement upon the bank to refund you unlike section 75.

 

your card company may attempt a chargeback 79 for non receipt of goods but if there is no money for the merchant's (DJ Models) account for their banker to collect funds from the chargeback will likely come back.  It's still possible for your card issuer to attempt the chargeback but it is not a guaranteed refund, IIRC in my time we would attempt chargebacks and then run the clock down on the merchants bank in the hope they didn't respond  in time and could reject their representation of the charge.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Chris M said:

I think Dave tried but he just isn’t a businessman. The web site is currently open and I guess accepting payments.

 

Just for the avoidance of doubt, as I have just checked - yes the DJM website is still live and you can add things to the basket, but cannot get any further.  If you try and check out, it says 'there are no payment options available'.  So if nothing else, no money is being taken from anyone through the website - whether that is temporary or permanent remains to be seen/understood. 

 

Edited by MarshLane
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