Crowdfunding: Reclaim via Credit Card

[chris p bacon]

24 minutes ago, brittannia said:

also PayPal representative said he was unaware of any repayment order and that DJM's account was still open,

 

How strange....

[woodenhead]

34 minutes ago, brittannia said:

I have checked with PayPal about my 2 x£30 payments made in October2016 and January 2107, both paid via my Bank account [not credit card},also PayPal representative said he was unaware of any repayment order and that DJM's account was still open, I presume having paid via the Bank account I presume this bars me from claiming via Article 75 and noting Andy York's latest post of small claims court costs , I will leave things as they are, and rest in the knowledge of receiving a class 92 from Accurascale which I ordered 3 months back.[along with a Deltic and Transpennine coaches]

Section 75 only applies to credit, unless you were overdrawn at the time you paid the deposits (and therefore borrowing) money then you have not paid by credit.

 

Additionally as you paid via Paypal the banks have a second get out clause as you've made an indirect payment to DJ Models so further negating Section 75 claims.

 

If Paypal cannot assist I don't think there is much else you can do other than claim with the liquidator.

[brittannia]

Thanks Woodenhead for your  information, it was as I suspected and although £60 down at the moment, it was as I had suspected as early as 2018, before the CAD files were sent out which came as a surprise as I had long given up on DJM bringing the CL 92 to market.

Edited June 7, 2019 by brittannia
grammar

[brittannia]

3 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

How strange....

That's what I thought and I did query the Paypal representative about his comments,

[dogbox321]

Not sure whether this would be viable or not, but a "wild card" I thought I should share - many people have house insurance policies which have legal cover and sometimes even a (free?) legal advice line for the policy holders to contact over queries.  Obviously anyone would need to check their T's and C's first, and decide upon its suitability based on their circumstances, any costs, cover by the policy etc.,- but maybe at least, contacting a legal advice helpline may be an option, should someone wish to persue the matter, or even just to identify their legal rights and options in this situation?

 

Just a thought,

 

Regards,

 

C.

[HowardGreen]

On 06/06/2019 at 20:34, srihaggis said:

 

Having just checked my invoice (I was never refunded any funds to pay back via the new method), there are x5 References to DJM, the DJM logo, website address and his name as "David" rather than Dave, on the Paypal Invoice. This was paid on the 5th October 2016. "You'll see "PAYPAL *DJMODELSLTD" on your card statement." was also stated.  

 

Fortunately for me I only paid £30 and I won't loose any sleep over it, therefore won't be chasing it up, but the above info may help clarify how he 'billed' people.

My credit card statement doesn't mention Paypal at all, nor does the invoice

 

[HowardGreen]

On 04/06/2019 at 20:50, woodenhead said:

Having once worked on Section 75 claims (about 30 years ago) I can confirm that apart from travel liquidations that is the standard response the bank will give and try and brush you off, you need to persist.

 

At the end of the day the payment you receive will be an ex gratia payment from the bank admitting no liability, it is unlikely the bank will recover a penny from DJ Models so effectively the bank is bailing you out. 

 

The CAB will be able to help if it gets difficult, you may need to be prepared to go to small claims if they are especially resistant, again the CAB will advise the best course.

Surely the CC Companies are obliged to comply with the regulations, so how can any payments/reimbursements they may make under Section 75 be "ex gratia"?

 

[woodenhead]

11 hours ago, HowardGreen said:

Surely the CC Companies are obliged to comply with the regulations, so how can any payments/reimbursements they may make under Section 75 be "ex gratia"?

 

The CC companies are not going to be claiming that money back from the retailer, they are going to write the amount off - they would much rather you claimed via the liquidator so generally they resist the claim.  If the amount isn't too big they may take the pragmatic view that it is cheaper to simply just write it off now hence ex gratia/goodwill as they will not admit liability for the claim.

 

That's how it was in my time, breach of contract cases were interesting, some of those would have to reach court to establish liability.

[Richard E]

Contacted my credit card company. They are sending me a claim form after, I suspect, initially looking for a get out by saying the amount was under £100 ...

[Damo666]

16 minutes ago, Richard E said:

Contacted my credit card company. They are sending me a claim form after, I suspect, initially looking for a get out by saying the amount was under £100 ...

As has been said before in this thread several times, only a valid argument for the CC company if the total value of the item is below £100. If the item is over £100 and you pay a deposit under £100, Section 75 covers you.

 

But the big BUT is, does Section 75 cover you if PayPal was an intermediary? Suspect there may be a variety of responses from the CC companies in due course, some rejecting, some accepting and some effectively saying, "Well, this time as a gesture of goodwill.....".

 

Keep us posted.

[JSpencer]

19 hours ago, dogbox321 said:

Not sure whether this would be viable or not, but a "wild card" I thought I should share - many people have house insurance policies which have legal cover and sometimes even a (free?) legal advice line for the policy holders to contact over queries.  Obviously anyone would need to check their T's and C's first, and decide upon its suitability based on their circumstances, any costs, cover by the policy etc.,- but maybe at least, contacting a legal advice helpline may be an option, should someone wish to persue the matter, or even just to identify their legal rights and options in this situation?

 

Just a thought,

 

Regards,

 

C.

 

If you have legal protection insurance, it could cover small claims like this (I used mine once for a Hotel charge). But may not be effective against a company that went insolvent.

Gold and Platinum cards should already insure against these payments be default anyway.

 

[RJennings]

Just been having a chat with Nationwide here and a few things that may be worth sharing;

 

Firstly - PayPal payments appear do indeed go through as Direct Debits so unfortunately little the bank can do with these so would need to raised through PayPal.

 

Secondly - Reference Visa Chargeback (Debit card payments outside of PayPal) - Does appear the bank can put a claim in for these BUT in the event it is not successful looks unlikely you could raise this through the receivers subsequently. Of note was that for 'best' chance of being successful with such a claim through the chargeback route the bank would like to see evidence that an individual has attempted to make contact with the seller in question (Even if this results in an automated out of office response) but at least documents tried to resolve with the seller / clarify if the product would be delivered fully or in part.

 

Edit: This does potentially mean that for those who paid APT deposits through DJ Models site with a Debit Card this payment could be covered under Visa.

Edited June 9, 2019 by RJennings

[adb968008]

22 hours ago, RJennings said:

Just been having a chat with Nationwide here and a few things that may be worth sharing;

 

Firstly - PayPal payments appear do indeed go through as Direct Debits so unfortunately little the bank can do with these so would need to raised through PayPal.

 

Secondly - Reference Visa Chargeback (Debit card payments outside of PayPal) - Does appear the bank can put a claim in for these BUT in the event it is not successful looks unlikely you could raise this through the receivers subsequently. Of note was that for 'best' chance of being successful with such a claim through the chargeback route the bank would like to see evidence that an individual has attempted to make contact with the seller in question (Even if this results in an automated out of office response) but at least documents tried to resolve with the seller / clarify if the product would be delivered fully or in part.

 

Edit: This does potentially mean that for those who paid APT deposits through DJ Models site with a Debit Card this payment could be covered under Visa.

On email, if using outlook, and sending the above suggested email, I would reccomend setting the priority to Urgent and selecting both “delivery receipt” and “read receipt” options. It does no harm to cc yourself on the email as proof of sending.

[The Stationmaster]

One point I'm a bit unclear on is if DTOS took any of the early orders for any versions of the APT?   Should that have been the case then usual Consumer Protection rules would surely apply if DTOS  took any payments.

[jjb1970]

I may be wrong but wasn't the OO APT basically offered almost on the spur of the moment by DJM following requests to do a OO one from people following announcement of an N gauge model in partnership with DToS? I may be wrong (I only viewed DJM projects as an observer and never bought anything or joined any crowd funded efforts) but I'm sure it was actually an N gauge collaboration, then a OO one was announced which was a DJM project but advertised with DToS. At the time it all appeared rather opaque, not helped by poor T&Cs which in their initial form appeared to be legally invalid. Therefore it may well be worth purchasers reviewing who was paid what but I'm pretty sure that in the case of the OO version, despite being advertised on the DToS site payment was to DJM, what might have happened is some payments made to DJM via DToS?

[Andy Mac]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

One point I'm a bit unclear on is if DTOS took any of the early orders for any versions of the APT?   Should that have been the case then usual Consumer Protection rules would surely apply if DTOS  took any payments.

 

Just checked my Emails.... so I received an email on 2nd April 2018,  requesting payment via PayPal for the initial 25% payment for the  OO APT from DJM.... 

 

[lochlongside]

On 04/06/2019 at 23:26, Damo666 said:

 

The invoice I have from DJModels Ltd, which notes 'PAID' in the top right corner, states the following:

 

  "DJM 00 Gauge Class 92 Project (DEPOSIT) Quantity 1, Price £30"

 

  "Please note this is a deposit sum, and not the total, which is payable as the project progresses."

 

My clear interpretation of this, and the case I will be arguing with the CC company should it be raised by them, is that this is a Deposit, and NOT a full payment towards a particular stage.

 

 

I agree.

Good day,

I approached MBNA today regarding a Section 75 claim (my payment in CC statement was marked Paypal *DJModelsLtd - as I expect several hundred others were) ready with all your advice to date (Thank you for that - most helpful)  - and they initially said they cannnot payout until the company is formally liquidated, but in the subsequent discussion also said they basically needed the documented answer to 2 Qns:

1. Is there any likelihood of the product being delivered

2. Is there any likelihood of the deposit being repaid.

I have emailed CG-Recovery with these two questions explaining why I need the answers - and also suggested that they could save an awful lot of bother if they put the answers up on the DJModels website as it will save us all flooding them with Emails.

I await the response with bated breath but I guess that when presented with the probably unpalatable answer the CC discussion will then move onto the Paypal reference !!

[westonp]

I’m disappointed more than angry with this situation. Crowd funding has brought us much requested models which would not have been produced otherwise, but fingers have been burnt here, including mine. 

 

I paid the nigh on £250 APT deposit through my credit card after the initial PayPal problem (whatever that was) so hopefully I won’t have the £30/£100 issue. I’m abroad at the moment so will speak to my CC company tomorrow. 

 

Can I ask the moderators if Mr. Jones is a member of RM Web, please? And if he is, should he be asked to leave?

[John M Upton]

He technically is a member of RMWeb but did a disappearing act a couple of years ago as he got umbrage at some of the negative comments he was receiving which was about the point that the whole DJM house of cards started to collapse.

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, lochlongside said:

Good day,

I approached MBNA today regarding a Section 75 claim (my payment in CC statement was marked Paypal *DJModelsLtd - as I expect several hundred others were) ready with all your advice to date (Thank you for that - most helpful)  - and they initially said they cannnot payout until the company is formally liquidated, but in the subsequent discussion also said they basically needed the documented answer to 2 Qns:

1. Is there any likelihood of the product being delivered

2. Is there any likelihood of the deposit being repaid.

I have emailed CG-Recovery with these two questions explaining why I need the answers - and also suggested that they could save an awful lot of bother if they put the answers up on the DJModels website as it will save us all flooding them with Emails.

I await the response with bated breath but I guess that when presented with the probably unpalatable answer the CC discussion will then move onto the Paypal reference !!

 

I suspect that the liquidators need those emails from people - in order to establish a list of names for the crowdfunders.

 

Once they've grasped the principle of what was going on, they basically just need a  verified list of the crowdfunders to establish an estimate of liabilities outstanding

[WolfofBadenoch]

I've been out the country since before this broke. Based on a number of comments on this thread i emailed the liquidators yesterday for information about what will happen / can i expect a refund. I don't expect any refund but this is in preparation for contacting my  CC company regarding Sect.75. I wont know what is on my CC bill till i get home but my DJM receipt states payment as CC. As it was APTs i was ordering it was over £400 so i wont have to worry about the less than £100 issues. 

[dpgibbons]

18 hours ago, lochlongside said:

I approached MBNA today regarding a Section 75 claim (my payment in CC statement was marked Paypal *DJModelsLtd - as I expect several hundred others were) ready with all your advice to date (Thank you for that - most helpful)  - and they initially said they cannnot payout until the company is formally liquidated, but in the subsequent discussion also said they basically needed the documented answer to 2 Qns:

1. Is there any likelihood of the product being delivered

2. Is there any likelihood of the deposit being repaid.

 

This looks like another example of a credit card company trying it on. Point out to them that Section 75A (2)(c) specifies that the insolvency of the supplier is by itself sufficient grounds for you to make a claim. There is no legal requirement on you to meet the other conditions they are trying to impose on you. You do not have to wait for formal liquidation or ascertain the likelihood of some redress.  See "The Law Behind It - Read it in Full" section in the link below.

 

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases/ 

[Widnes Model Centre]

17 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

I suspect that the liquidators need those emails from people - in order to establish a list of names for the crowdfunders.

 

Once they've grasped the principle of what was going on, they basically just need a  verified list of the crowdfunders to establish an estimate of liabilities outstanding

 

Might I suggest you post this on the other thread as well?

 

It is a far better method of informing the Liquidators than trying to manage some form of representative meeting with them.

 

If as many people as possible send the information regarding the payments made they will be able to build up an idea of the sums involved. I would also suggest that it doesn't matter how small an amount or if crowdfunders have written the money off.

[jjb1970]

Post number 1 in the OO APT thread may be worth noting:

 

Hi everyone,

just started this thread to keep specific chat between the gauges separate.
I'll add details later for the OO version, but it mirrors the N gauge ones exactly apart from the price of course.

Meanwhile you can order using this link..... http://durhamtrainsofstanley.co.uk/my_store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=371

 

Please note this is a DJM crowdfunding project and DJM will be invoicing, designing, and finally supplying the finished model and is therefore totally responsible for your investment.

Also: Please Note: Any 'pure' crowdfunding venture is an investment with no guarantee of return, and your invested capital (deposit payments) are at risk. Please consider carefully whether you wish to partake in this venture before ordering.

cheers
Dave

[WolfofBadenoch]

I've received a reply from CG Recovery. Not sure whether i'm allowed to just copy it in here, but from my understanding 

 

Order will not be fulfiilled

I will be added to Company's creditor list and provided with further information in respect of liquidation

I will be provided with a proof of debt form to register claim in liquidation

If i paid by CC i should request refund through them and if CC company need documentation the info soon to be sent to me should be used.