Crowdfunding: Reclaim via Credit Card

[Dixie Dean]

I've been refunded by HSBC having paid with a Business Visa Credit Card for the £249 I paid towards the APT.  I paid for the 2 Class 92 using my PayPal credit and as expected they refused to consider any repayment.

[brittannia]

I was refunded £60 by Santander on a goodwill payment , they did not accept a refund on the £60 via my current account and PayPal, presumably they paid out to a longstanding customer .I think that was admirable on their part,easing the unpalatable treatment we all received from DJ Models.

[Colin_McLeod]

One option would be to add refunds to the spreadsheet on the crowdfunders data thread. That would be easier to follow than a series of posts.

 

I would not take a dispute lying down. Remember that DJ's bank probably take advice about the transactions  from DJ himself.  He appears to have this weird idea that we were investing in his company rather than paying a 25% deposit. Let him produce an investment agreement lol

 

However I won't give all the arguments on this thread as DJM or their bank can also read what is on RMweb.   

[dave_7820]

20 hours ago, dogbox321 said:

Hi - thanks.  If you don't mind me asking - What was the order for? And  how long ago was the order tho?  They said they could not do a Section 75 due to the length of time.

 

Regards,

 

C.

 

In my case it was the deposit for three Kings, total £202.50.  I put in the order in August 2018, and made the claim a couple of weeks after DJM went into liquidation.  The payment was made on a Lloyds Mastercard.

 

The following might be of help:  https://www.lloydsbank.com/credit-cards/help-and-guidance/section75.asp especially regarding the length of time.

[dogbox321]

On 18/09/2019 at 20:50, Colin_McLeod said:

One option would be to add refunds to the spreadsheet on the crowdfunders data thread. That would be easier to follow than a series of posts.

 

I would not take a dispute lying down. Remember that DJ's bank probably take advice about the transactions  from DJ himself.  He appears to have this weird idea that we were investing in his company rather than paying a 25% deposit. Let him produce an investment agreement lol

 

However I won't give all the arguments on this thread as DJM or their bank can also read what is on RMweb.   

 

Hi - thanks.  I will PM you when I hear anything from Lloyds!  Or if successful, let everyone know!

 

Regards,

 

C.

[dogbox321]

On 19/09/2019 at 08:56, dave_7820 said:

 

In my case it was the deposit for three Kings, total £202.50.  I put in the order in August 2018, and made the claim a couple of weeks after DJM went into liquidation.  The payment was made on a Lloyds Mastercard.

 

The following might be of help:  https://www.lloydsbank.com/credit-cards/help-and-guidance/section75.asp especially regarding the length of time.

 

Hi, thats why many refunds on here have been via "chargeback", and not Section 75.

 

Best Regards,

 

C.

[Matt C]

If your claim has been rejected, and you feel the amount due is worth pursuing, Make sure you ask the bank for a final letter of rejection, stating their reasons FOR  rejection . Most rejections seam to be for the age of the claim

( outside the 540 day limit)  So make sure you state that    'You find this unreasonable as you couldn't know you weren't going to get your bespoke Item until the company went into liquidation, and wished to put your case for refund before the Financial Ombudsman'   Going to the Ombusman cost's you a bit of time filling out the form and a stamp. It costs the bank a minimum of £500 EVERY TIME and no you DONT pay their costs if you lose, they do win OR lose plus the time it takes them to dispute your claim. 

   It's quite possible the Ombudsman would agree that you are being treated unfairly, especially as other banks have paid out with no quibble under the same circumstances, and would award your claim, but you may find the bank just makes a 'goodwill gesture' as its not worth the time, effort and cost of  disputing your claim, and the risk they may end up paying you anyway

 

 

P.S. its worth noting that Paypal voluntarily agreed to be covered by the Ombudsman back in 2007, has anybody challenged them with a claim yet ?

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Mattc6911

[Colin_McLeod]

1 hour ago, Mattc6911 said:

P.S. its worth noting that Paypal voluntarily agreed to be covered by the Ombudsman back in 2007, has anybody challenged them with a claim yet ?

 

 

Excellent point Matt.

 

I would suggest that those that have been rejected by PayPal follow the advice in your post regarding final letter of rejection etc.

[37505bstp]

quick update.

 

Paid my £150.00 deposit via Paypal using my credit card.

 

the card issuer first looked at chargeback but then advised to claimed under S75 - usual drill lots of evidence sent in.

 

Now received 'ex gratia' credit in full into my account.

 

CC is a well known store branded type, which is actually operated by one of the big 4 banks.

 

 

[NinOz]

Had two separate claims refunded in August (credit card through citibank) but one has now been rejected as being beyond the 120day  limit so will expect a similar result sometime soon for the other claim.

[Matt C]

Dont accept refusal easily, its what they rely on. As in my post above on this page, ask for " A final letter of rejection stating your  reasons for rejection so I can take it to the ombudsman"  This costs them money for each case regardless of the outcome and all these claims get recorded. They might then decide to make an ex grata payment to stop it going down that route.  Same applies to PayPal, they signed up voluntarily to abide by the Ombudsman's decision so it will cost them for each case as well.

Each order placed and deposit made, with DJM was for a unique item, It wasnt just an off the shelf product but  a configuration you had to specify when ordering, that was then going to be made for YOU. Bespoke items take time to be made so a long time before delivery can be expected. You could not have known you were not going to get this item until DJM went into receivership, and that is when the clock should start ticking

[njee20]

On 20/09/2019 at 11:20, Mattc6911 said:

If your claim has been rejected, and you feel the amount due is worth pursuing, Make sure you ask the bank for a final letter of rejection, stating their reasons FOR  rejection . Most rejections seam to be for the age of the claim

( outside the 540 day limit)  So make sure you state that    'You find this unreasonable as you couldn't know you weren't going to get your bespoke Item until the company went into liquidation, and wished to put your case for refund before the Financial Ombudsman'   Going to the Ombusman cost's you a bit of time filling out the form and a stamp. It costs the bank a minimum of £500 EVERY TIME and no you DONT pay their costs if you lose, they do win OR lose plus the time it takes them to dispute your claim. 

   It's quite possible the Ombudsman would agree that you are being treated unfairly, especially as other banks have paid out with no quibble under the same circumstances, and would award your claim, but you may find the bank just makes a 'goodwill gesture' as its not worth the time, effort and cost of  disputing your claim, and the risk they may end up paying you anyway

 

 

P.S. its worth noting that Paypal voluntarily agreed to be covered by the Ombudsman back in 2007, has anybody challenged them with a claim yet ?

 

Small (and rather late) comments on this:

 

- you have to go through the bank's complaint channels before going to the FOS. It's not enough to deal with one person and then go straight to the FOS.

- don't refer to your item as bespoke, for a start nothing Dave was producing was bespoke, and secondly the consumer rights act on bespoke goods is very different (and markedly more restricted)

 

The bit about the cost to the business of a customer going to the FOS is true, but don't use it as a threat. You'd be amazed how often customers do that, it doesn't work. Speaking as someone who deals with a lot of FOS referrals!

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by njee20

[Matt C]

16 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Small (and rather late) comments on this:

 

- you have to go through the bank's complaint channels before going to the FOS. It's not enough to deal with one person and then go straight to the FOS.

- don't refer to your item as bespoke, for a start nothing Dave was producing was bespoke, and secondly the consumer rights act on bespoke goods is very different (and markedly more restricted)

 

The bit about the cost to the business of a customer going to the FOS is true, but don't use it as a threat. You'd be amazed how often customers do that, it doesn't work. Speaking as someone who deals with a lot of FOS referrals!

 

If you have a final letter of rejection doesn't that meen you HAVE exhausted their process ?  Its not a threat if they have given you a final letter of rejection, its your only option left surely ? What would you call it if not bespoke ?  As someone "in the know " please share your wisdom  

[BR(S)]

Following an initial dispute by DJ Models of my chargeback claim on the APT, the company had 45 days to respond to the bank's subsequent defence of my claim.  That expired on October 25th and I haven't heard anything, so the £162 seems to be staying with me.

[Colin_McLeod]

10 hours ago, Mattc6911 said:

If you have a final letter of rejection doesn't that meen you HAVE exhausted their process ?  Its not a threat if they have given you a final letter of rejection, its your only option left surely ? What would you call it if not bespoke ?  As someone "in the know " please share your wisdom  

 

Bespoke means an item is made specially for you e.g. a T shirt with your name and picture on it or a piece of furniture made to dimensions to fit your location.

 

The models DJM promised were all the same. Nothing was made specially for YOU, hence not bespoke.

 

 

Regarding the "Final response" letter, it is what the Ombudsman requires to consider your case.  The use of the phrase "Final response" clarifies beyond all doubt that you HAVE exhausted the bank's process.  The Ombudsman is not interested in getting involved at any other stage.

 

I think the "threat" that njee20 was referring to was the threat that a referral to the Ombudsman would cost the bank money, rather than the threat of the referral itself.  

Edited October 27, 2019 by Colin_McLeod

[Matt C]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Bespoke means an item is made specially for you e.g. a T shirt with your name and picture on it or a piece of furniture made to dimensions to fit your location.

 

The models DJM promised were all the same. Nothing was made specially for YOU, hence not bespoke.

 

 

Regarding the "Final response" letter, it is what the Ombudsman requires to consider your case.  The use of the phrase "Final response" clarifies beyond all doubt that you HAVE exhausted the bank's process.  The Ombudsman is not interested in getting involved at any other stage.

 

I think the "threat" that njee20 was referring to was the threat that a referral to the Ombudsman would cost the bank money, rather than the threat of the referral itself.  

 

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Bespoke means an item is made specially for you e.g. a T shirt with your name and picture on it or a piece of furniture made to dimensions to fit your location.

 

The models DJM promised were all the same. Nothing was made specially for YOU, hence not bespoke.

 

 

Regarding the "Final response" letter, it is what the Ombudsman requires to consider your case.  The use of the phrase "Final response" clarifies beyond all doubt that you HAVE exhausted the bank's process.  The Ombudsman is not interested in getting involved at any other stage.

 

I think the "threat" that njee20 was referring to was the threat that a referral to the Ombudsman would cost the bank money, rather than the threat of the referral itself.  

 

 

Bespoke is probably the wrong word, but I would still argue that even though the items produced  may be the same, each order is individual to the purchaser, number of carriages, dc, dcc, sound. . .whatever the buyer specifies, this is then added to the list to be manufactured and then need to be assembled into YOUR order. They cant just be made and sent on a mass mailing list.

 

I DIDN'T say to threaten the bank (telling them it would cost them if you go to the Ombudsman) I simply stated it probably WOULD cost them so they are more inclined to just settle a persistent claim than go to the trouble of contesting it

Anyway Im sure those out of pocket can decide if yhe amount owed is worth pursuing

 

[njee20]

Yep, bespoke is the wrong word, and using it is likely to be counter productive. As said, bespoke means it is made for you, to your specification, and the rules around bespoke items are very different, so it's an unhelpful word to use as it may confuse things. DJM wasn't producing anything bespoke at all.

 

My comments re the FOS were more general - a lot of people speak to one person, get rebuffed, so say "I'll take it to the FOS" because they've read it'll make companies roll over. You can't at that point anyway, and it'll do nothing to help your case. Iif you have exhausted all avenues of complaint, and still feel you haven't got the right outcome (as here), you should absolutely take it to the FOS, it's why they're there, although they exist to be impartial, not solely to benefit the customer as many people seem to think!

[dpgibbons]

If NinOz was using an Australian credit card then he likely has fewer claim options.

[dogbox321]

Still awaiting a response from Lloyds.  Sent an e-mail a couple of months ago, to which I had a "response" acknowledgement, and nothing since.  Followed with a phone call - someone will call or e-mail.  Another week or so, and still nowt!  Getting a little peed of with them!

 

Regards,

 

C.

[Ed-farms]

20 hours ago, dogbox321 said:

Still awaiting a response from Lloyds.  Sent an e-mail a couple of months ago, to which I had a "response" acknowledgement, and nothing since.  Followed with a phone call - someone will call or e-mail.  Another week or so, and still nowt!  Getting a little peed of with them!

 

Regards,

 

C.

 

Keep contacting them, I found this worked with TSB - they might have a complaints form on the website you can try citing "lack of communication" and if you have Facebook a few comments on posts of theirs won't go amiss

[Colin_McLeod]

21 hours ago, dogbox321 said:

Still awaiting a response from Lloyds.  Sent an e-mail a couple of months ago, to which I had a "response" acknowledgement, and nothing since.  Followed with a phone call - someone will call or e-mail.  Another week or so, and still nowt!  Getting a little peed of with them!

 

Regards,

 

C.

 

I think the time had come to send them THE letter including the following:

 

"Please let me have your final response within 40 days of today's date. If that final response is not satisfactory or is not forthcoming I will refer the matter to the Financial Ombudsman without further reference to you"

 

Include all your arguments and evidence of placing the order and of DJM's liquidation.

 

I suggest registered letter so that you can show the Financial Ombudsman that you did indeed send it

 

 Best wishes

[dogbox321]

Hi, gents.  Many thanks.

 

 

[oleander]

need some advice. I been trying to get my money back £248.99. paid with a visa debit card.Bank said sorry ,can not  help as over 120days old.
As it was a LTD company can take the crook David Jones to court.
I spoke again with the liquidator. To this day they still not recived a list of customers from David jones . That sound very odd and like DJ is trying to hid some thing. I will be very lucky if I get any thing back from the Liquidators.
Dose any one have any ideas or is time to say good by to the money .
John

[Ed-farms]

3 minutes ago, oleander said:

need some advice. I been trying to get my money back £248.99. paid with a visa debit card.Bank said sorry ,can not  help as over 120days old.
As it was a LTD company can take the crook David Jones to court.
I spoke again with the liquidator. To this day they still not recived a list of customers from David jones . That sound very odd and like DJ is trying to hid some thing. I will be very lucky if I get any thing back from the Liquidators.
Dose any one have any ideas or is time to say good by to the money .
John

 

First question is when did you start your claim?

[oleander]

about a month ago
John