Shunting in a goods yard - who is in charge?

[Stubby47]

I'm assuming we have a small BLT type goods yard. The staff involved would be the signalman, the loco driver/crew, the shunter/yard person and possibly a yard master. Plus possibly local tradesmen.

 

Who decides on the order wagons are shunted and how is that plan communicated to the staff involved and which signals/points/wagons are to bd moved next?

[Ray H]

I'd guess the train crew worked it out between them and then agreed what their plan was with the signaller.

 

The Station Master might have outlined a priority at the start of things.

 

Ducks under the signalbox steps hiding from others with more knowledgeable information. It may of course varied from location to location depending on what other train movements were likely before any shunting could be completed.

[micknich2003]

Speaking from experience, the Yardman would be in charge, and I the signalman basically  worked to his instructions.

[Stubby47]

So how does he communicate with you during the moves?

In model form, we as operators change points & drive locos as a co-ordinated process, but across a busy yard and with the distances involved, how does this work in the real world?

[jim.snowdon]

In general, goods yards were laid out so that the shunting could be undertaken clear of the running line(s), with the signalman only being involved in the movements to and from the main line. Once the train, or at the part of it that was to be shunted, was "inside", the movements would have been controlled by the shunter (or the person acting as the shunter) using hand points and hand/whistle signals to the loco crew. Depending on the level of traffic, the part of the train not needing shunting could be left on the main line.

 

Jim

 

[LMS2968]

It would depend on the size of the yard, but normally the shunter would be in charge of the actual movements. The Bobby, having brought the train into the yard, and unless part of it still occupied the main line, would not be involved. The labels on the wagons said what went where.

[jim.snowdon]

The labels said what the destination of the wagon was, not which siding it had to be placed in, other than private sidings. The label would give some clue as to the contents, eg "perishable", "livestock", "vegetables, potatoes, etc", from which a shunter could work out whether it needed to be put in the goods shed, or the cattle dock or the coal siding.

 

Jim

[iands]

55 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

..... how does this work in the real world?

Busy/large yards are/were provided with radio systems, typically in the UHF band during the latter days of BR. After 01/04/1994 the responsibility of most of these systems gradually defaulted to the FOCs etc. to "maintain" which included the licencing of the system, hence a number were effectively switched off as deemed  "no longer required". Earlier BR systems would have been VHF radio systems. However, a "radio system" (e.g. a base station and multiple hand-portable radios) would have been somewhat of an "overkill" for a BLT scenario.

 

These yard radio systems were used by the yard staff to arrange/report requirements within said yard, rather than for the control of "shunt movements".

 

Where radios are used to control specific shunting movements, then a pair of "shunting radios" are used.

 

Although the shunting radios are used in the same UHF frequency band, they are on a different frequency (or channel if you prefer) to any other radio system used within the yard. A specific requirement for the shunting radios is for a "confidence tone" to be provided. The shunting radios are provided as a pair of back-to-back radios (and do not work through/via a base station). One hand-portable stays with the shunter and the driver is given the other hand-portable. The shunter will pass instructions to the driver on which movements to make, and whilst the train is in motion, the shunter depresses a button on his hand-portable that emits the "confidence tone" on the drivers hand-portable. If, for any reason, the tone on the drivers radio stops sounding, the driver immediately stops the train movement - this is the safety feature of the shunting radio system. The shunter does not have to be "seen" by the driver - given that the train being shunted can be very long, and involve points/curves etc., it is virtually impossible for the shunter to be seen by the driver for part of the movement never mind the whole of the movement, so hand-signals cannot be relied upon.

 

Some of the big yards (Tees Yard, etc.) were provided with a VHF yard radio system for communications directly between the signalman and driver, but these were not used to control specific shunt movements and had large fallen into disuse, or had been replaced by a UHF radio system by the mid 70s.

[PaulRhB]

The 'Shunter' could be a designated member of staff, a Porter/Shunter or the Guard of the train, it just depended on the Company and size of station.

[The Johnster]

In a BLT type local goods yard, once the pickup loco is 'locked inside' the yard and can shunt clear of the running lines, the signalman can get on with other work, but in some places where shunting requires to use the running lines, he is part of the operation.  The order in which moves are carried out is decided beforehand by everyone involved, which is loco crew, guard, any yard personnel involved.  The yard man will be in charge unless there isn't one (staffing levels at such places varied), in which case it'll be the guard.  Two men in such a yard can work very efficiently, one changing points and one doing the coupling/uncoupling.  The pickup will have, as far as possible, been marshalled at the 'junction' sorting/marshalling yard so that traffic is conveniently situated ready for the moves and the wagons will be in a 'cut' for this yard separate from any other places the pickup services.  

 

When I say decided, what actually happens is that the thing has been done so many times that everybody has a pretty good idea what they are required to do before they start and just get on with it.  It is not quite a matter of repeating the exact same sequence every time, as traffic levels vary, but the general principles are well established.  Factors to be taken into consideration include where the ground staff position themselves to maintain line of sight to the loco, and where the lights are if things have to be done at night (this includes early morning and late afternoon in winter).  The work is controlled by hand signals, and will not take place faster than the staff on the ground's walking pace; there's no point rushing about if you then have to wait for somebody to walk 50 yards to change a set of points...  Moves into goods sheds or on to rakes of coal or mileage stock which may be being worked in are done with great care.

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

I'm assuming we have a small BLT type goods yard. The staff involved would be the signalman, the loco driver/crew, the shunter/yard person and possibly a yard master. Plus possibly local tradesmen.

 

Who decides on the order wagons are shunted and how is that plan communicated to the staff involved and which signals/points/wagons are to bd moved next?

In its basic terms very simple.  The Goods Dept staff were the deciders of what was to go where because they had to deal with the traffic being moved from or to wagons and with the private traders etc who needed access to wagons (e.g. those containing coal).  The Traffic Dept was responsible for putting the wagons where they were needed and they would decide what was shunted how, where, and when once the train was working the yard.

 

As already noted,  someone would be in charge of the shunting - at smaller locations this would almost inevitably be the Guard although even some relatively small stations also had Shunters or other staff able to undertake shunting work and they might even be the person who did the Goods Dept work as well.  It all depended on the size of the location and the amount of work - for example our local branch terminus had Shunters and although their main purpose was to deal with passenger train run rounds etc they also got involved in shunting the freight trip because very often sighting along longer rafts of wagons needed more than one person to do the shunting and it was usually quicker to do it with two anyway.  But the two branch intermediate stations only had one or two sidings and the Guard would take charge of the shunting having - hopefully - been told what wagons were required to be taken away and knowing from the labels what wagons were to be dropped off.

 

My uncle had started as a Lad Porter at a GWR station in the Vale of the White Horse and when he progressed to adult rate he also undertook shunting work assisting with shunting the freight trip so such things obviously happened at relatively small intermediate stations.  In some cases a Travelling Shunter would go with a trip to work with the Guard at busier  (in traffic terms) locations where there were no local shunting staff.

 

One thing which is worth remembering is that in the steam age traffic flows tended not to vary very much year after year - with the obvious seasonal variations, particularly in country areas.   So having done the job a few times everyone would be well used to what was going on,  It was partly post-war but very definitely after the 1955 ASLE&F strike that far more change occurred far more frequently in traffic patterns and rationalisation schemes (which had started in the 1930s) became far more common.  One thing always worth noting in that connection is that many people tend to associate goods traffic changes with that late 1950s/'60s period but as far as goods smalls traffic was concerned (that is 'goods smalls' as a particular part and classification within overall freight traffic) changes and the introduction of replacement road lorry rounds instead of rail wagons had begun in the 1930s on some companies.

[The Johnster]

Your uncle must have known Adrian Vaughan then, Mike.

[Ian Morgan]

I was once told "a train driver drives the guard's train on the signalmen's tracks between station masters' stations", so I guess it should be added "and shunts goods depot staff's yards".

 

 

[Wickham Green]

20 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

......... the movements would have been controlled by the shunter (or the person acting as the shunter) using hand points and hand/whistle signals............

 

....... or hand lamps - if you operate your layout with the lights out !

[Rivercider]

Mention of Adrian Vaughan reminds me I have one of his books 'Signalmans Morning'

In chapter 6 he describes the freight customers at Challow, and the shunting of the daily goods train.

 

I suspect on occasions a customer waiting for a wagon to load, or unload, with road transport waiting

might pester the yard staff to have their wagon(s) berthed first,

 

cheers 

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Your uncle must have known Adrian Vaughan then, Mike.

No, my uncle was there pre-war and the chap you mention, who was later one of my Signalmen, didn't start at Challow until a good time after the war.  A great raconteur is Adrian but some of his tales should be taken with a little pinch of salt

[The Johnster]

Ah.  I'd agree that AV is a good read, and his enthusiasm is considerable, but my impression tallies with yours in that he seems to get carried away with himself a little at times.  He describes a railway staffed with utterly charming gentlemen on which the sun always shone and on which nothing ever went wrong, God's Wonderful, and I know from my own experience that this is fictional...