Penrhos1920 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) Has there ever been a list published of 4mm PO wagon liveries that have been produced in either transfers or pre-printed sides? Ie a complete list of the catalogues of Cambrian, POWSides, Dragon etc Edited August 7, 2019 by Penrhos1920 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 Cambrian used to have the list of the original pre printed wagon kits on their old website. Seems to have gone. http://cambrianmodels.co.uk/ Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 I think the short answer to your question is 'No' but if you'd like to start compiling one.... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted June 8, 2019 Author Share Posted June 8, 2019 Did anyone save a copy of the list that used to be on the Cambrian models website? l already have a list of the ones I own, but I know there’s a lot I’ve yet to get! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 8, 2019 4 hours ago, wagonman said: I think the short answer to your question is 'No' but if you'd like to start compiling one.... If one was to go about compiling such, it would be most useful if each was referenced to the source for the livery, together with date and some assessment of fidelity to the prototype wagon. POWSides certainly go to some effort to find the nearest match from the rather limited range of kit wagons available but there are inevitably compromises. I'm still twitching from the discovery that the originals of the Morris & Shaw Birch Coppice Colliery wagons were 15'11" over headstocks rather than the 14'11" of the Gloucester 5-plank wagon, the Slater's kit for which POWSides use. But as I've said elsewhere, I think I've become over-sensitised. What's 4 mm here or there? It surely wouldn't bother anyone if the latest RTR locomotive was out by that much, would it? 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-Miles Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Stephen You are of course absolutely right but it comes down to time and effort. I have been involved with layouts which need upwards of 200 wagons. To scratch build that sort of number would be a huge effort even with the use of resin casting. Maybe it would be easier with 3d printing, something I have little experience with but I suspect would be expensive. Builders of pre-grouping layouts are already faced with the task of either scratch building or kitbashing to get locos, ditto with carriages and the track has to be bespoke, as do signals etc. Faced with that, building a layout in a reasonable amount of time is a huge effort so we all tend to cut corners somewhere. For example on the current layout I am building I have used flexi-track (8' 6" rather than 9' 0" sleepers) just to save some time. I am also using POWsides wagons. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 8, 2019 (edited) John, It was not my intention to criticise the compromises anyone chooses to make, merely to say that one should be aware of them. I've certainly not binned my Birch Coppice wagons! I was, though, having my usual go at the "it's only a wagon" attitude which does seem to be all too prevalent. I'm sure your layout wagons are appropriate to the time and place you are modelling. Edited June 8, 2019 by Compound2632 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted August 6, 2019 Author Share Posted August 6, 2019 Does anyone know anything about PO wagon kits produced by Mike's Modes, Model Highways (Bristol), Pendon Museum and R.D. Whyborn? What where the liveries? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted August 6, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 6, 2019 I've never had one but were not the Pendon kits in fact Slaters? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 (edited) There were three Pendon kits. Yes, they were Slaters, custom printed by Slaters. The one I remember is Ocean (a 6-plank end-door Gloucester). Edited August 6, 2019 by Miss Prism 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted August 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7, 2019 I don't think the Ocean Colliery wagons can have been exclusive to Pendon as i have quite a number, and none acquired there. Actually I have 40 Ocean wagons of various parentages, so i can fill a colliery yard and run a train or two of them - one day. Jonathan 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 The Turton books on PO wagons usually give details of whether or not transfers/special wagons were produced, and the source. But this of course would mean ploughing through Turton's books, and in any case I am sure his books do not cover every PO wagon that has had a transfer produced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 12 hours ago, Miss Prism said: There were three Pendon kits. Yes, they were Slaters, custom printed by Slaters. The one I remember is Ocean (a 6-plank end-door Gloucester). Yes, I've got a couple of Pendon/Slaters kits. But the list of Cambrian kits I've obtained specifically says: "We also made 6 types for Model Highways (Bristol), 3 for Pendon Museum and about 20 for R.D. Whyborn". So are there 3 Pendon/Slaters kits as well as 3 Pendon Cambrian kits? Interestingly the Cambrain list does not mention Mike's Models, but I've got 3. Did Mike's Models do their own printing etc? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 7 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said: So are there 3 Pendon/Slaters kits as well as 3 Pendon Cambrian kits? It would seem so, from the statement you have from Cambrian. If so, they were probably 7-plankers. I can't remember Pendon Museum advertising them though. Memory is hazy on Mike's Models, but I get the impression that MM might have been the first in the 'custom PO' game (even before Slaters and Cambrian), so I guess they did their own printing. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
multivac Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 (edited) On 08/06/2019 at 00:01, Steamport Southport said: Cambrian used to have the list of the original pre printed wagon kits on their old website. Seems to have gone. http://cambrianmodels.co.uk/ Jason The list is still on the Cambrian website. Scroll down the first paragraph to "List of Liveries", which is a PDF file. We could certainly do with a comprehensive list of Private Owner companies, wagon types, kit manufactures and kits all cross referenced. I supposed the RTR wagons could be included too. Big task, it would need afew people to work on it. Edited August 7, 2019 by multivac 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Ah. Couldn't see for looking. Funny thing is I've just found that I already had it saved as a PDF. Doh! The RTR wagons should be reasonably easy as they are in the Ramsay's Guide To Model Trains books. Probably now due an update as it's about three years old. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted August 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7, 2019 I think one can say with confidence that the number of private owner wagon liveries that have not been replicated in model form - RTR, pre-printed kit, or transfers - vastly exceeds those that have. I'm fairly sure these haven't: ... and these are Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Co. wagons. Gloucester wagons, or at least Gloucester liveries, are the most frequently produced, as that company's photographic archive has survived and has been made readily available. There are dozens of wagon builders whose products have not been explored, let alone been reproduced in accurate model form. 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted August 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 7, 2019 40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: and has been made readily available. Hi Compound 2632, is this archive on line? If so could you share the URL? Thanks Angus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted August 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Argos said: Hi Compound 2632, is this archive on line? If so could you share the URL? Thanks Angus No, what I mean is that Gloucester photographs have been published in numerous books, starting with Keith Montague's Private Owner Wagons from the Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd (OPC, 1991), and including the collected works of Bill Hudson and Keith Turton. The comprehensive local area surveys by Ian Pope and Richard Kelham cover areas that were the Gloucester Co's home territory. Many Gloucester photos are available from the HMRS; I don't know if that means they are actually the custodians of the Gloucester photographic archive. Many but not all HMRS photos can be viewed on their website, defaced by a watermark. That was all a bit long to include in a single sentence. There is available online an index of private owner wagons that have appeared in print, which appears to be fairly thorough. HMRS also hold many Hurst Nelson photos but the liveries in these have to be treated with caution (and have led some manufacturers astray) as Hurst Nelson were partial to painting wagons in a photographic livery of very light woodwork, grey ironwork and black lettering. I believe Birmingham Public Libraries hold the records including photograph books for the Metropolitan Railway Carriage & Wagon Co and possibly firms that were amalgamated with it; I'm not sure to what extent this archive has been studied systematically. As one looks through old railway photos, one often gets a glimpse of PO wagons of which there is no other record... 1 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted August 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7, 2019 Metro-Cammell collection - a very brief overview here: https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/50139/explore_and_discover/1628/metro-cammell_collection. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 The HMRS only has part of the Gloucester photo archive – the complete set are in Gloucester Record Office along with the Agendas and other paperwork. From memory the Pendon/Slater's kits were 'Ocean', 'Woodley of Oxford' and A N Other. The Mike's Models were 1920s South Wales mostly, and slightly rough mouldings by Slater's standard. The POWSides lists are phenomenal, ad getting longer by the month thanks to mugs like me commissioning specials. Unfortunately a few have been stretched to fit available kits... Richard 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Compound2632 said: I think one can say with confidence that the number of private owner wagon liveries that have not been replicated in model form - RTR, pre-printed kit, or transfers - vastly exceeds those that have. I'm fairly sure these haven't: ... and these are Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Co. wagons. Gloucester wagons, or at least Gloucester liveries, are the most frequently produced, as that company's photographic archive has survived and has been made readily available. There are dozens of wagon builders whose products have not been explored, let alone been reproduced in accurate model form. Snap, well almost! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted August 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, wagonman said: A N Other. I am tempted, very tempted. Any details of specification, builder, livery, registration? 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted August 14, 2019 Author Share Posted August 14, 2019 On 07/08/2019 at 22:59, Compound2632 said: I am tempted, very tempted. Any details of specification, builder, livery, registration? A N Other, No.1, Ynyshir & Knoware Else, the wagon was painted sky blue pink with black lettering in according to K Turton, A Hundredeth Collection. Looks like RCH 1923 15 plank 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted August 14, 2019 Author Share Posted August 14, 2019 Okay, I've put together a combined list. There are a few gaps. So if you have any kits by Mike's Models, Model Highways or RD Whyborn please look them out and see if they are on this list. I've not included any Dapol, Bachmann, Hornby or other RTR as they are generally not genuine liveries on scale bodies. If there are RTR liveries that you think are accurate please let me know and I will include them. PO Wagons.pdf 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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