DMU Centre Cars

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, dhjgreen said:

A bit like this

 

With a sneaky bit of LYR EMU creeping in to the right

 

And I have a Bachmann 3 car Class 108 too.

Lovely, I have a blue grey kit built one acquired a few years ago, lovely unit.

 

can I ask the LYR, is that the Shapeways 3D print ? 

[dhjgreen]

13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Lovely, I have a blue grey kit built one acquired a few years ago, lovely unit.

 

can I ask the LYR, is that the Shapeways 3D print ? 

Yes Rue de Etropal on here, getting a bit pricey now, and powering with the vestibules is tricky.

[Titan]

How easy is it to convert a Driving Trailer to a Driving Motor? I assume there is a little more to it than swapping underframe detail and  adding exhaust pipes?

[Clive Mortimore]

11 minutes ago, Titan said:

How easy is it to convert a Driving Trailer to a Driving Motor? I assume there is a little more to it than swapping underframe detail and  adding exhaust pipes?

That s the easy bit. Converting a Driving Trailer to a intermediate trailer is a tad harder. 

[stewartingram]

For the record, I have mentioned this on the forum before.

My Bachmann 101 2-car set (power + trailer) is now a 3-car (power + trailer + power) with the correct DMBS + TCL + DMCL (I hope that's right) bodies. This involved 2x Bachmann sets along with a Lima centre car; all are now on Bachmann chassis with only one car powered.

Not a quick (or cheap, though I got the 2nd unit in a bargain sale at Rails) conversion),  but a satisfying one and not that difficult to do.

 

Stewart

 

 

[The Johnster]

At least matters have improved since the days of the Lima 117, which had to DMBSs and required another vehicle to be cut and shut to represent a set with the proper DMS.  I chopped mine into a 116, which needed 6 vehicles to make up a 3 car set because of the very different non-lav TC; luckily these centre cars were already easily available secondhand at low cost when I did this back in the 80s.  The set still exists and gets an occasional run on the layout.  

 

Twin DMBS 117 sets did appear in South Wales right at the very end of pre-Sprinter operation there, but by and large these sets stayed in the formation they were delivered in for most of their working lives; the WR did not seem to mess around with it's sets to the extent that some other regions did.

[stewartingram]

 I also chopped up a Lima 117, making it into a 3-car 125. The centre car was made of 10 slices!

 

Stewart

[BritishRail60062]

Personally I would love to have a prototype Class 150/0 as 150002 in the GWR livery as only two of those existed as the others were a hybrid mix of 150/1 and 150/2's which is possible to make with the existing Bachmann 150 packs that are available but the centre cars of 150001 and 150002 are non cab fitted and the cab doors on the driving ends are sliding door like with the 150/2's.

[adb968008]

34 minutes ago, BritishRail60062 said:

Personally I would love to have a prototype Class 150/0 as 150002 in the GWR livery as only two of those existed as the others were a hybrid mix of 150/1 and 150/2's which is possible to make with the existing Bachmann 150 packs that are available but the centre cars of 150001 and 150002 are non cab fitted and the cab doors on the driving ends are sliding door like with the 150/2's.

I saw 150001 at Taunton the other week, I was quite stunned it was still in service. It’s probably one of the longest passenger serving prototypes / experimental types ever to run on the rails, built in 1982, it’s 39 years old...

 

Other prototypes / experimentals by comparison :

 

111 1908-53 : 45 years.

6399 1929-62 : 33 years.

(W1) 10000 1929-59 : 30 years.

LMS 10000 1947-1966: 19 years.

46202 1935-52 : 17 years.

Deltic 1955-62 : 7 years.

DP2 1962-67 : 5 years.

kestrel 1967-71: 4 years.

Dhp1 1963-67:  4 years.

 

Though 150001/2 does jointly share its status with another more remarkable survivor.. the driving trailer / centre cars of the experimental class 210 are used in class 455 sets 5912 and 5913

 

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by adb968008

[Clive Mortimore]

25 minutes ago, BritishRail60062 said:

Personally I would love to have a prototype Class 150/0 as 150002 in the GWR livery as only two of those existed as the others were a hybrid mix of 150/1 and 150/2's which is possible to make with the existing Bachmann 150 packs that are available but the centre cars of 150001 and 150002 are non cab fitted and the cab doors on the driving ends are sliding door like with the 150/2's.

Hi Ash

 

How about a 150/1 with a 150/2 coach as the center car and a bit of plastic card. The other 150/2 coach is then ready for a hybrid 150 three car unit. Nothing wasted.

 

As your signature states "Think positive and positive things will happen."

 

A pair of Glasgow to Edinburgh inter-city intermediate Motor Seconds, Trix coach parts on Tri-ang chassis and some plastic card.

 

Loads still to do to finish but I hope you can see if you think around a problem it becomes a solution.

 

 

 

[adb968008]

Or cut the gangway off the power car of a 150/2, and the cab off the dummy.., plus an extra window on one side.

swap them around, swap the toilet window for the other window, then you have a centre car, and a “what might have been” 1 car 150 sprinter :-) .. 150/3 ?

Edited June 11, 2019 by adb968008

[BritishRail60062]

Great idea but what is betting that if I went into all that trouble that Bachmann would announce a 150/0 at the time I was near to completing my conversion. In 2009 I bought a Mk3 kit and in 2010, bam here comes a all singing and all dancing RTR Mk3 DVT that would make my model kit laughable . 

I think I will just settle for a hybrid by using a 150/2 unit for the centre car like their did in the West Midlands .

[The Johnster]

Bachmann's lead times from announcement to sales are about 5 years, so it'd still be worth doing.  I am glad that I was persuaded to build a 'Limbach' hybrid 94xx, even with it's various shortcomings, as a stop gap until the Bachmann 94xx is available.

[Legend]

Bachmann did do a power twin 108 (I think it had Exeter as a destination) and some years ago I managed to pick up a centre car , so I cobbled together a three car unit which masquerades as a 107 and runs with a Model Rail Strathclyde orange 107, also acquired second hand.   For 101s I've stuck with Hornby  or the Limby unit , reasonable model, good price, three cars as standard .  I would like another to paint into refurbished white and blue. I originally  did this to a Triang Hornby  Met Camm dmu, and while OK for its time , really doesn't cut the mustard now.    I still think there would be a market for Hornby to re release their Lima 101, bulk standard blue grey and  refurb white  would be good

[Clive Mortimore]

This thread has got me slightly fired up. Many years ago I started a model of a Cravens unit from Tri-ang Mk1 coaches. I got the idea from seeing Frank Dyer's model he made from Kitmaster coaches. The progress had ground to a halt, especially after finding it smashed up where the shelf it was on had collapsed. A couple of months ago I got it running. I have 4 other two car units, 2 Bachmann power twins, a Bachmann 2 car trailer set and an MTK unit. The MTK has a different arrangement for teh brake van, which is a nice variant. My conversion has the same arrangement as the Bachmann models. So to make it different last night I set about making a center car so I have a LMR 3 car unit.

 

For the center car I have used parts from 2 Tri-ang composite coaches I had to hand.  The remaining parts with other oddments are destine to become a loco hauled Griddle Car. 

 

First job is to mark the sides where they are to be cut.

 

Using a three square file (triangular file) I make a notch where the cut line will be on the support rib.

 

The side is turned over and a second notch is filed into the top of the support rib. This makes it easier to score and snap the sides when cutting them.

 

Here are the parts of the two sides laid on the drawing. Hopefully today i will glue them together.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 11:48, Bino said:

I should have said that my interest is in 1st Generation given that my layout theme is Scottish 1960's.

 

The answer is/was that it would not be possible to number the centre cars prototypically. That in itself is not so shocking but when I suggested that to many modellers (ie me) that would be a minor factor I was told that the prevailing criticism from modelling media is a major factor that they take very seriously and such criticism does influence their decision making.

On the whole I would rather the manufacturers were looking to get it right. The bad old days of 'that'll do' are happily well behind us: it would be disappointing if this were to recur to any extent.

 

Perhaps manufacturer's might be a little braver in some respects: actually declaring that the XXXX isn't truly correct in this livery or formation, but as a substitute for the popular although unusual XXXY variant which was not going to justify tooling, we believe this short production run of something which is very attractive might please many of our customers.

 

But then I am the kind of idiot who thinks it would be a good scheme to put different numbers either side of anything where there are no numbers on vehicle ends: wagons, coaches, BR's pre-TOPS traction. It would help with variety and you cannot see both sides at once. I have a layout full of repeat number rolling stock, and this would halve the problem of always making sure that 'repeats' are more than half a dozen vehicles apart. Life is far to short to renumber 90% of a wagon fleet. I have made use of the clip together construction of Bach's mk 1s to have a few coaches maroon one side, crimson and cream the other so that train formations for the 1956 - 60 period 'change' when turned around (the layout is a very extended 'dogbone' arrangement).

['CHARD]

On 12/06/2019 at 00:14, BritishRail60062 said:

Great idea but what is betting that if I went into all that trouble that Bachmann would announce a 150/0 at the time I was near to completing my conversion. 

 

I think it extremely unlikely that one of the big manufacturers will ever get round to modelling three car prototype DMUs; Heljan dabbled with some of the more numerous '50s railcars, but even they shelved a planned one due to the earlier models being allegedly slow sellers.  One only has to look earlier in this topic to see the logic behind the Class 101 being issued as a twin; the forthcoming Class 117 is a triple, but it represents a larger class size and a hitherto unrepresented commuter/ high-density unit.

 

On 12/06/2019 at 03:00, The Johnster said:

Bachmann's lead times from announcement to sales are about 5 years, so it'd still be worth doing.

 

And in the wake of no announcement, time stretches forever.....

[BritishRail60062]

To be honest. The Class 150/0's so far have only ever worn 4 liveries from the time they entered service which was BR Provincial, Regional Railways Centro, Central Trains Centro and GWR as it presently with. I didn't include the debranded Central Trains livery that they had under London Midland as it is quite easy to replicate once the user removes the Central Trains logos from them. If the Blue Pullman is anything to go by, I wouldn't rule out a Class 150/0 as the Blue Pullman only had 3 liveries in total if I remember correctly  .

['CHARD]

Just now, BritishRail60062 said:

 If the Blue Pullman is anything to go by, I wouldn't rule out a Class 150/0 as the Blue Pullman only had 3 liveries in total if I remember correctly.

 

The BP had been wishlisted for years and was considered an iconic train by many; the prices fetched by second-hand Triang vehicles demonstrated that some real demand was there, yet new examples are still available through retailers, so even that has hung around, despite its purported attractiveness.  The LMS Twins wore three liveries and have been produced by a few mainstream manufacturers too, Class 55 Deltics wore basically two liveries and these are a perennial model.  There is more to the comparison than liveries.  No matter how hard I try, I can't see many vouchsafing 'iconic' status for 150001/2, sufficient to tool up a whole new vehicle body.  

[dibber25]

Gosh, so easy to blame the 'media'! It used to be called shooting the messenger. In fact, Bachmann's own design people would never deliberately produce something that was just plain wrong. A DMS+DTC two-car unit would not have a centre car inserted because the two bus engines in the DMS would be inadequate to haul two trailer cars. I've no doubt there may have been the odd occasion when it happened in emergency but that's all. 

Also, manufacturers are repeatedly pointing out, these days, that multiple units are expensive to tool and produce - the more cars the greater the problem. Wired couplings in order to avoid multiple decoders and still control directional lights are just one of the issues. Sorry, but the two-car unit makes a lot more commercial sense than a three or four car, although we've been lucky to have Class 350, the 4CEP, the blue Pullman and, when it comes, the 117 all from Bachmann. (CJL)

[royaloak]

44 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

 A DMS+DTC two-car unit would not have a centre car inserted because the two bus engines in the DMS would be inadequate to haul two trailer cars.

I have it on good authority that several DTC+DTS (or similar) formations were made up on the depot over the years (quite a few when the DMU renumbering scheme was taking place) the issue only being realised when the driver arrived and tried to start the engines, cue the 08 being fired up for some more hasty shunting.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

48 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

... multiple units are expensive to tool and produce - the more cars the greater the problem...

I have wondered if part of their problem is a combination of 'anonymity' and pressure on storage space on a layout, which reduces their sales potential. (It cannot be the model quality, they are fully up to standard.)

 

My requirement is adequately filled by five two car sets, typically running 6 car and 4 car, and intensively shuttling on and off scene in alternate directions to perform all of inner sub., outer sub. and branchline turns. This is because they can, whereas the equivalent service pattern by loco hauled formations requires 33 vehicles and 14 locos for the 'skinniest' practical representation of the distinctively different formations as steam transitions to diesel, and the run around of each loco hauled movement plus a number of loco substitutions at reversals to enable 'reappearance'.

 

So while the operation would be simpler with at least another pair of two car units, at a minimum of twenty feet of track occupancy for current storage of whatever among this stock selection isn't in service, it is the DMU's that are pared to bone, because their absence is most easily disguised.

[Ramblin Rich]

Backing up to Clive's rather wonderful DMU conversions/splice jobs, can I ask which publication has the (presumably 4mm scale) drawings and also, what you use for underframe details? I'd like to improve the underframes on the Hornby (Lima) 101s but need some idea of what goes where; if there's some commercially available items all the better.

 

[The Johnster]

I think there is a bit of a dichotomy between what is profitable/sensible for manufacturers to produce in the current market and what those of us who need 3 or 4 car sets on our layouts tell them we want.  The 3 car Swindon Cross Country, class 120, is a frequent big hitter in polls and wishlists, but consistently fails to materialise.  4 body toolings (if a Buffet trailer variant is to be offered) and 2 underframe toolings are needed, and bogie sideframes are different to any other dmu; perhaps the economics of this just isn't right for the manufacturers.  We know we'll buy 'em, because we repeatedly ask for 'em, so where are they?

 

The history of model dmus and emus supports this to some extent.  The Triang Metro-Cammell and SR emu, and the Hornby Dublo emu all used the format of a 2 car set that a centre car could be added to; in the case of the emus the centre car was simply the generic suburban loco hauled composite, with unchanged running numbers.  The numbering issue simply wasn't worried about as much back then, and a number on a coach was considered a minor detail that few people would be aware of.  Duplicates were the norm, and Trix had a go at a Trans-Pennine, only producing one type of DMCL and relying on dmu liveried mk1s for the rest; it was possibly to have a 5 car set, but not in any correct configuration...

 

Triang broke the mould with the TT range with a BRCW set that could be used as a 2, 3 or 4 car train, but the running numbers of the driving cars could only have ever been correct for one of these; no one cared.  Move on a couple decades and Lima have a go with the 117, producing only 2 of the vehicles for incorrect DMBS/TCL/DMBS set with no DMS, presumably a compromise on cost issues.  These incorrect sets populated exhibition layouts for years to follow, suggesting that nobody still cared much.  I made a very nearly correct 3 car 116 out of bits of these that attended several shows with our club layout, attracting favourable comment.  Most asked question was where I'd got it; nobody noticed the carefully chosen numbers correct for that variant of the sets with a TS, correctly labelled no smoking saloons, and few noticed the removed gangways.  Dmus and emus were still very much the poor relation, perhaps surprisingly as they are a vital component of layouts set between 1958 and 1990, probably the most modelled periods.  

 

The Bachmann 108 was a revelation, a dmu to modern standards of fidelity, followed by better Metro-Camms, Cravens, and a range of Southern Region emus that have effectively ignited a healthy genre of 3rd rail layouts where previously there was not even thought to be a market.  But costs are rising and it is possible that the good times are over in this respect.

 

There may be an opening for a kit manufacturer here.  Kits are an effective way of producing the diversity of body outlines and underframe variants required cost effectively.  The 108 situation is illustrative; Baccy won't make the driving cars that are correct for a 3 car set because they aren't willing to produce  vehicles that are similar to but not exactly the same as the ones they've already produced for the 2 car set, and one can't blame them!  Kits could be a way around this.

[melmoth]

12 minutes ago, Ramblin Rich said:

Backing up to Clive's rather wonderful DMU conversions/splice jobs, can I ask which publication has the (presumably 4mm scale) drawings and also, what you use for underframe details? I'd like to improve the underframes on the Hornby (Lima) 101s but need some idea of what goes where; if there's some commercially available items all the better.

 

 

The book looks like Brian Golding's Pictorial Record of British Railways Diesel Multiple Units (isbn: 9781900298001, Cheona), but I might be wrong...