DMU Centre Cars

[Clive Mortimore]

5 minutes ago, melmoth said:

 

The book looks like Brian Golding's Pictorial Record of British Railways Diesel Multiple Units (isbn: 9781900298001, Cheona), but I might be wrong...

 

19 minutes ago, Ramblin Rich said:

Backing up to Clive's rather wonderful DMU conversions/splice jobs, can I ask which publication has the (presumably 4mm scale) drawings and also, what you use for underframe details? I'd like to improve the underframes on the Hornby (Lima) 101s but need some idea of what goes where; if there's some commercially available items all the better.

 

That is the one. Some of the drawings have errors but working with a good set of photos and information off the Railcar Association website a reasonable model can be made.

[Clive Mortimore]

Sides have been glued together. They are temporary on the underframe of a cut and shut BG, and the roof is also on loan. 

3 car cut and shut Tri-ang Cravens unit, only started 30 odd years ago. 

[turbos]

On 09/06/2019 at 02:46, Bino said:

I attended Model Rail Scotland in February and asked the Bachmann team why DMU centre cars were not produced to convert 2 car sets into 3 car sets. To me, it's a no brainer.

 

The reasons I was given frankly shocked me and this has been praying on my mind since.

 

But, I wonder if anyone can guess what they said?

As it seems quite clear that Bachmann are not going to tool up a class 101 centre car, why not try and persuade Hornby to sell their class 101 centre car individually, they’ve previously sold class 110 centre cars individually. 

If you want a 3 car you get the Hornby, if you want a 2 car you get the Bachmann, both have imperfections. I got a Hornby as I wanted a Scr 3 car as I wanted to put a depot symbol on the centre car.

[Francis deWeck]

FYI I  have one centre coach going spare, if any one should wish to contact me by the internal message system.

[caradoc]

On 22/06/2019 at 10:19, turbos said:

As it seems quite clear that Bachmann are not going to tool up a class 101 centre car, why not try and persuade Hornby to sell their class 101 centre car individually, they’ve previously sold class 110 centre cars individually. 

If you want a 3 car you get the Hornby, if you want a 2 car you get the Bachmann, both have imperfections. I got a Hornby as I wanted a Scr 3 car as I wanted to put a depot symbol on the centre car.

 

What would be even better would be Hornby producing a Modernisation Plan DMU to the same standard as those from Bachmann, an area which Hornby have totally ignored.

 

[Market65]

The class 110 or 104 three car units from Hornby would be great, but it seems highly unlikely. Therefore, using heavily reworked Bachmann class 108 chassis, I have, using the Hornby class 110 bodies, made up the three car 110 and two car and a NER four car 104. 

For the 110 I worked from  both plans and photo’s to make all four RollsRoyce engines and gearboxes. They took about a month, but what a transformation! Photo’s are available.

 

Best regards,

 

Rob.

 

P.S. I use Lima class 101 trailers too to make up three car sets, and for NER quads, I’ve a further Bachmann conversion. It has an adapted Lima body, well two actually, to make the TBSL. Again pics are available of this car. I recall cutting, with a hacksaw, all the blocks, which the engines were mounted on, from the Mazak  chassis to get it correct for the trailer car configuration. The interior lights work on this car too, along with those on the 110 and 104’s.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Market65

[Les1952]

 

OK so it is N-gauge but this is part of the result of buying several Farish 3-car Class 101 sets.  Note the second car is not just a centre trailer but a trailer BRAKE second.  This was done for me by Mr Simon by cutting and shutting a DMBS and a TS to make a DMCL and a TBS.  He has since replaced the third car with a trailer buffet, displacing the trailer second shown here into a second 4-car set to make a complete Middlesbrough to Carlisle train of 8 cars.  See his workbench thread for the gory details.

 

It was at Warley last year with Hawthorn Dene and at Sileby and Manchester MRX with Croft Spa.  It can be seen at Ross on Wye in August with Hawthorn Dene and at Loughbrough and Wirksworth later in the year with Croft Spa.  Even though FARISH do a centre trailer for the 101 and 108 I still haven't persuaded them to release the centre trailer as a separate item....

 

Les

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

On ‎13‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 20:49, The Johnster said:

 ...The Bachmann 108 was a revelation, a dmu to modern standards of fidelity, followed by better Metro-Camms, Cravens... But costs are rising and it is possible that the good times are over in this respect...

Bachmann have made the running to generally very good effect (and with the addition of the Dapol and Heljan selection) the modernisation plan DMU market may well currently be near saturation? For sure there are still some numerous types without RTR models, but the general demand for 'a modernisation plan DMU that is a credible choice for my interest' has probably long been satisfied. And that's been efficiently done on the basis of a range of subjects which share mechanism, running gear and much detail.

 

18 hours ago, caradoc said:

What would be even better would be Hornby producing a Modernisation Plan DMU to the same standard as those from Bachmann, an area which Hornby have totally ignored.

A new entry would require selection of a subject that is a definite 'must have' for a specific interest group to obtain the necessary sales. A first question I would have is whether Bachmann's assault on the two car sets effectively constrains choice of the 'likely to be popular' new subjects to three (plus) car sets?

[Clive Mortimore]

6 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

 

Bachmann have made the running to generally very good effect (and with the addition of the Dapol and Heljan selection) the modernisation plan DMU market may well currently be near saturation? For sure there are still some numerous types without RTR models, but the general demand for 'a modernisation plan DMU that is a credible choice for my interest' has probably long been satisfied. And that's been efficiently done on the basis of a range of subjects which share mechanism, running gear and much detail.

 

A new entry would require selection of a subject that is a definite 'must have' for a specific interest group to obtain the necessary sales. A first question I would have is whether Bachmann's assault on the two car sets effectively constrains choice of the 'likely to be popular' new subjects to three (plus) car sets?

Just like LNER pacifics, GWR pannier tanks, cute pre grouping 0-6-0s......

 

Derby lightweight single unit and 4 car

Met -Cam lightweight

Gloucester 2 car

BRCW 2, 3 and 4 car

Met-Cam 4 car

Derby 4 car

Derby 3 car heavyweight

Derby  2 car long undeframe

Met-cam Rolls Royce engined

Wickhams

Park Royal

BRCW 3 car suburban

Derby 3 car suburban

Derby 3 car suburban Rolls Royce engine

Derby 4 car suburban

Derby 4 car suburban Rolls Royce engine

Gloucester 3 car cross country

Swindon 3 car Cross country (3 different versions)

Swindon 4 car Inter-city

Swindon 3/6 car Inter city (Aryshire and Edinburgh to Glasgow types)

Cravens Parcels van.....everyone likes a single car parcels van.

 

When I asked Bachmann why they chose a 117 not the more geographically widely used class 116. there answer was the 117 was in more liveries....the prettier the better, hence the variety of all black 0-6-0s.

 

How many more upgrades are Hornby going to do on the Stanier pacifics?

 

 

[Ramblin Rich]

There's been no long chassis 1st gen unit models except the 117 and 121/122. If I remember right, Lima adapted their class 117 moulds to make the 121; otherwise, I do think Hornby might have re-released the 117 as a spoiler to the Bachmann version (as per the class 66).

Still holding out for a cross country. The Swindon version without headcode box is stylish and different enough from other DMUs to make an attractive proposition (in my mind).

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Just like LNER pacifics, GWR pannier tanks, cute pre grouping 0-6-0s......

 

Derby lightweight single unit and 4 car

Met -Cam lightweight

Gloucester 2 car

BRCW 2, 3 and 4 car

Met-Cam 4 car

Derby 4 car

Derby 3 car heavyweight

Derby  2 car long undeframe

Met-cam Rolls Royce engined

Wickhams

Park Royal

BRCW 3 car suburban

Derby 3 car suburban

Derby 3 car suburban Rolls Royce engine

Derby 4 car suburban

Derby 4 car suburban Rolls Royce engine

Gloucester 3 car cross country

Swindon 3 car Cross country (3 different versions)

Swindon 4 car Inter-city

Swindon 3/6 car Inter city (Aryshire and Edinburgh to Glasgow types)

Cravens Parcels van.....everyone likes a single car parcels van.

 

When I asked Bachmann why they chose a 117 not the more geographically widely used class 116. there answer was the 117 was in more liveries....the prettier the better, hence the variety of all black 0-6-0s.

 

How many more upgrades are Hornby going to do on the Stanier pacifics?

 

 

And some of those are numerous and long-lived classes that covered a wide geographical range as well, Clive.  No BRCW (kudos, Traing TT), and if you model the WR pre about 1974, a very popular period that yooda fort might be worth a punt from the manufacturers, but I don't know enough about marketing to comment, and Bachmann do (!), then the trade has never done much for your dmus beyond the 117, London and Bristol area (yes, I know they wandered a bit later) and not easily convertible to 116 for South Wales, Bristol, and West Midlands (not impossible, I've done it).  

 

LIma's 117 wasn't bad for the time, but it looks a bit crude nowadays and has to be kept meticulously clean and carefully driven to achieve smooth starts and stops.  Their bubble car seems to have been an opportunistic response to a very large number of modellers who cut and shut their own.  

 

We now have a Baccy 117 in the pipeline, and 121/2 from Dapol.  These have underframes common to the Swindon and Gloucester cross country 3 car, Scottish Swindon Inter-City and Ayrshire, various Derby 3 and 4 car suburban sets, and the 64' chassis Derby 2 car 114s, so it is possible that the situation may not be hopeless, either for future RTR or body kits for RTR chassis that might cut into yur list.

 

I likes a good dmu, I does, especially in green livery with white cab roofs.  But they are hardly the mother lode of RTR profitability and easy production with a seemingly infinite number of coach profiles requiring different toolings to attend to if you want to be as accurate as the modern market demands; many centre cars would need to be comparatively low volume production.  Dmus are an area of very small but highly visually important detail differences in body profile and window profile, so you can't make a Gloucester cross country out of a Swindon one by having replaceable cabs, for instance, or a Swindon 4 car inter-city out of mk1s with B4 bogies.

 

Trix had a go at this sort of thing with the Trans-Pennine, only actually producing one type of vehicle of a 5 car set of 5 different vehicles and padding it out with dmu liveried mk1s on incorrect Commonwealth bogies.  They might've done better with a Clacton electric...

 

Incidentally, you need 2 versions of Gloucester cross country 3 car as there were Buffet sets, and 2 varieties of centre car for Derby 3 car sets, TS & TC, not to mention 3 different cab fronts.  No wonder manufacturers fight shy of them.  And we all want the exact one appropriate to our period and area.  Cost has always been an issue; how much do we reckon a current standard RTR Cardiff-Rhymney 116 6 car, one set with TS and one with TC, would set us back?  Back in the day, when Triang were producing a trailer for their MetroCam and using a green suburban for their Southern Electric, and HD were doing the same for their North London emu, the marketing was very much that these coaches could be used to 'extend' or 'convert' your 2 car set to 3 or 4 car.  Not sure how many people bothered, and Triang's MetroCam centre car was probably not a commercial success.  It made sense in those days to pad multiple units out with loco hauled stock.

Edited June 24, 2019 by The Johnster

[SRman]

For accuracy, the Swindon class 120 DM underframes need to be deepened when compared to the centre coaches and most other units. I'm not sure if it applies to any other Swindon types (classes 123 and 126 come to mind).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎24‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 10:28, Clive Mortimore said:

Just like LNER pacifics...

The ratio of available to unavailable looks much alike, still more without a model than are available RTR!

 

Useful DMU list, and it is weighted toward 3 and 4 car sets, produced by a manufacturer focus on the lower cost 2 car and single units. The next question might be which - if any - of the 3+ car sets might be produced RTR on an expansion basis of 'add trailers'? (Hornby marketed their Brighton Belle that way, and it has been the norm in the past for fixed formation trains such as 125 and 225.)

[Clive Mortimore]

20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

And some of those are numerous and long-lived classes that covered a wide geographical range as well, Clive.  No BRCW (kudos, Traing TT), and if you model the WR pre about 1974, a very popular period that yooda fort might be worth a punt from the manufacturers, but I don't know enough about marketing to comment, and Bachmann do (!), then the trade has never done much for your dmus beyond the 117, London and Bristol area (yes, I know they wandered a bit later) and not easily convertible to 116 for South Wales, Bristol, and West Midlands (not impossible, I've done it).  

 

LIma's 117 wasn't bad for the time, but it looks a bit crude nowadays and has to be kept meticulously clean and carefully driven to achieve smooth starts and stops.  Their bubble car seems to have been an opportunistic response to a very large number of modellers who cut and shut their own.  

 

We now have a Baccy 117 in the pipeline, and 121/2 from Dapol.  These have underframes common to the Swindon and Gloucester cross country 3 car, Scottish Swindon Inter-City and Ayrshire, various Derby 3 and 4 car suburban sets, and the 64' chassis Derby 2 car 114s, so it is possible that the situation may not be hopeless, either for future RTR or body kits for RTR chassis that might cut into yur list.

 

I likes a good dmu, I does, especially in green livery with white cab roofs.  But they are hardly the mother lode of RTR profitability and easy production with a seemingly infinite number of coach profiles requiring different toolings to attend to if you want to be as accurate as the modern market demands; many centre cars would need to be comparatively low volume production.  Dmus are an area of very small but highly visually important detail differences in body profile and window profile, so you can't make a Gloucester cross country out of a Swindon one by having replaceable cabs, for instance, or a Swindon 4 car inter-city out of mk1s with B4 bogies.

 

Trix had a go at this sort of thing with the Trans-Pennine, only actually producing one type of vehicle of a 5 car set of 5 different vehicles and padding it out with dmu liveried mk1s on incorrect Commonwealth bogies.  They might've done better with a Clacton electric...

 

Incidentally, you need 2 versions of Gloucester cross country 3 car as there were Buffet sets, and 2 varieties of centre car for Derby 3 car sets, TS & TC, not to mention 3 different cab fronts.  No wonder manufacturers fight shy of them.  And we all want the exact one appropriate to our period and area.  Cost has always been an issue; how much do we reckon a current standard RTR Cardiff-Rhymney 116 6 car, one set with TS and one with TC, would set us back?  Back in the day, when Triang were producing a trailer for their MetroCam and using a green suburban for their Southern Electric, and HD were doing the same for their North London emu, the marketing was very much that these coaches could be used to 'extend' or 'convert' your 2 car set to 3 or 4 car.  Not sure how many people bothered, and Triang's MetroCam centre car was probably not a commercial success.  It made sense in those days to pad multiple units out with loco hauled stock.

All of this list can be modeled, the ones in red are ones I have not done.

 

Derby lightweight single unit and 4 car single car (both) from Hornby 110 before the Bachmann lightweight.

Met -Cam lightweight Lengthened Tri-ang model

Gloucester 2 car MTK and Hornby 110 conversion

BRCW 2, 3 and 4 car MTK and Hornby 110 conversions, I have 2 , 3 and 4 car

Met-Cam 4 car Lima and Hornby conversions, both types of 4 car formations.

Derby 4 car Bachmann conversion, I also done a class 108 from Hornby 110 before the Bachmann model.

Derby 3 car heavyweight Hornby 110 conversion

Derby  2 car long undeframe Hornby 110 conversion and MTK

Met-cam Rolls Royce engined Lima conversion

Wickhams MTK

Park Royal MTK

BRCW 3 car suburban

Derby 3 car suburban I have a Lima 117 ready to convert.

Derby 3 car suburban Rolls Royce engine Lima 117 conversion.

Derby 4 car suburban

Derby 4 car suburban Rolls Royce engine Lima 117 conversion

Gloucester 3 car cross country MTK

Swindon 3 car Cross country (3 different versions) Craftsman/Lima conversion (only one type)

Swindon 4 car Inter-city Tri-ang Mk1 coach conversion

Swindon 3/6 car Inter city (Aryshire and Edinburgh to Glasgow types) Tri-ang/Trix Mk1 conversion

Cravens Parcels van.....everyone likes a single car parcels van. Tri-ang Mk1 conversion

 

I forgot the Trans-Pennine unit again a Tri-ang Mk1 conversion.

 

In the past I have converted Lima 117s into 122 and 121including a 121 trailer, which I doubt will ever be made RTR.

 

The point about the list was to show there is still a vast amount of modernisation DMUs that have not been made RTR. Not everyone wants to make their own for various reasons.......................I just enjoy doing so.

 

34 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The ratio of available to unavailable looks much alike, still more without a model than are available RTR!

 

Useful DMU list, and it is weighted toward 3 and 4 car sets, produced by a manufacturer focus on the lower cost 2 car and single units. The next question might be which - if any - of the 3+ car sets might be produced RTR on an expansion basis of 'add trailers'? (Hornby marketed their Brighton Belle that way, and it has been the norm in the past for fixed formation trains such as 125 and 225.)

I agree single and 2 car units are easier to sell because they can be made affordable to many modellers. Having the ability to add additional trailers to make 3 and 4 car units is something I think RTR manufacturers should investigate which means we have gone round the train set and arrived back at Bino's opening post. 

[SRman]

Still on the subject of the Swindon Cross-Country class 120 units (sorry to bang on about these!), many of these eked out their last days as two car units in blue and grey. The potential is there for these to be offered as a 2-car with an optional centre car, much as Hornby did with at least some of their class 110 sets many years ago. 

No prizes for guessing that I wouldn't mind a rtr version of a 120 in OO.

[The Johnster]

Some 120s ran as 2 car power twin sets on the Central Wales line from introduction, if you want a 2 car set in green livery.  These were retrofitted with Lucas car rallying seachlights as some sections of the Central Wales are unfenced, mounted on the central pillar between the 2 cab windows.  I believe the fitting was done at Landore.  Pantyfynnon 37s were also fitted but AFAIK the D600s were not.

 

I once worked one of these sets on the 23.00 Bristol Temple Meads-Cardiff Central, a link job for me, and the driver turned the light on in the Severn Tunnel, because, he said, he'd never seen it properly.  It was not a sight for the faint hearted, and it is arguably better not to see that amount of water coming in when you are under a river carrying 60' depth of water at high tide...

 

Clive is right in that all the sets on his list can be modelled with kits or cut and shuts of RTR, but I'd caution against using mk1s as the basis for the Swindon 4-car intercity.  A good representation can be made but not from Triang mk1s unless the B1 bogies are replaced with B4s, the only dmus to carry these bogies and an early use of them in 1962, and the window profile on the dmu stock, while based on mk1s, is slightly smaller.  Body profile is different as well I believe.  Underframes are quite a bit different of course and a Buffet is a further problem.

 

For interest, my Lima conversion to 116 represents a set with the 4 marker lights and no first class.  The Lima centre car is of limited use as the toilet pipes get in the way on the roof.  You need to make a TS and DMS, and cut the route indicator boxes off the Lima cabs and replace them with the small destination blind boxes.  I made these and the new marker lamps out of brass, tube cut to length for the lamps and filled with glue to represent the glass, and a length of brass rectangular section trunking that happened to be the right size that my local shop had in stock.  These are milliput filled and carry incorrect 'Cardiff' destinations (General? Queen Street? Bute Road?) both ends behind clear plastic from packing.  These may have been cut out destinations from Smith's.  I cut off the gangways and replaced the exhaust pipes with home made wire ones, and replaced the buffers with turned brass, can't remember where from now as this was back in the 80s.  Livery is the lighter green with whiskers and white cab roofs.  You need new compartment dividers if you are modelling the set without gangways, and these featured 3 windows in dark wooden frames which are quite visible from outside.

 

I've since found out that the set I modelled was originally a Bristol area set and not correct for South Wales.  It's outside my period now, but still gets an outing for an excursion (Sunday School outings to Bristol Zoo?) now and then.  It still runs reliably, but has to be thoroughly cleaned every time it's used.  At one time it had flush windows, and the cabs still do, but I reverted to 'back' glazing for the compartments as the flush windows looked a bit like soap bubbles...

[Gibbo675]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Some 120s ran as 2 car power twin sets on the Central Wales line from introduction, if you want a 2 car set in green livery.  These were retrofitted with Lucas car rallying seachlights as some sections of the Central Wales are unfenced, mounted on the central pillar between the 2 cab windows.  I believe the fitting was done at Landore.  Pantyfynnon 37s were also fitted but AFAIK the D600s were not.

 

I once worked one of these sets on the 23.00 Bristol Temple Meads-Cardiff Central, a link job for me, and the driver turned the light on in the Severn Tunnel, because, he said, he'd never seen it properly.  It was not a sight for the faint hearted, and it is arguably better not to see that amount of water coming in when you are under a river carrying 60' depth of water at high tide...

 

Clive is right in that all the sets on his list can be modelled with kits or cut and shuts of RTR, but I'd caution against using mk1s as the basis for the Swindon 4-car intercity.  A good representation can be made but not from Triang mk1s unless the B1 bogies are replaced with B4s, the only dmus to carry these bogies and an early use of them in 1962, and the window profile on the dmu stock, while based on mk1s, is slightly smaller.  Body profile is different as well I believe.  Underframes are quite a bit different of course and a Buffet is a further problem.

 

For interest, my Lima conversion to 116 represents a set with the 4 marker lights and no first class.  The Lima centre car is of limited use as the toilet pipes get in the way on the roof.  You need to make a TS and DMS, and cut the route indicator boxes off the Lima cabs and replace them with the small destination blind boxes.  I made these and the new marker lamps out of brass, tube cut to length for the lamps and filled with glue to represent the glass, and a length of brass rectangular section trunking that happened to be the right size that my local shop had in stock.  These are milliput filled and carry incorrect 'Cardiff' destinations (General? Queen Street? Bute Road?) both ends behind clear plastic from packing.  These may have been cut out destinations from Smith's.  I cut off the gangways and replaced the exhaust pipes with home made wire ones, and replaced the buffers with turned brass, can't remember where from now as this was back in the 80s.  Livery is the lighter green with whiskers and white cab roofs.  You need new compartment dividers if you are modelling the set without gangways, and these featured 3 windows in dark wooden frames which are quite visible from outside.

 

I've since found out that the set I modelled was originally a Bristol area set and not correct for South Wales.  It's outside my period now, but still gets an outing for an excursion (Sunday School outings to Bristol Zoo?) now and then.  It still runs reliably, but has to be thoroughly cleaned every time it's used.  At one time it had flush windows, and the cabs still do, but I reverted to 'back' glazing for the compartments as the flush windows looked a bit like soap bubbles...

Hi Johnster,

 

Here is my Swindon class 123 with its incorrectly profiled Triang Mk1 body sides, I did reduce the window depth though ! A brief thought was to use Mk2 body sides with the Mk1 windows but I thought such carry on to be far too much like trouble. The power bogies are from a Lima class 73 as they are vaguely similar to B4 bogies if you squint. To complete the unit it requires lining, numbers and glazing.

 

I have various other cut and shuts, class 103 and 104 from Hornby 110, a 128 from a Triang Mk 2 and a 129 from a Triang Mk1 BG along with some DC Kits 101, 108, two 105, and a Derby light weight, some of the above are part built and others not yet built.

 

 

 

 

Gibbo.

 

Edited June 25, 2019 by Gibbo675
Improper grammar.

[The Johnster]

Looking good, Gibbo.  

['CHARD]

I'm afraid I don't have photographic evidence to back up this next piece of gen, but....  I crafted a Tyseley centre-car lash-up of a declassified Class 120 Buffet from two of the really basic bright red Triang 'shorty' MkIs - the sort supplied in trainsets circa 1964 with no glazing or much detail of any sort.  

 

It ran on the garden railway I built in mum and dad's garden circa 1985, and wasn't bad if I say so myself.  Wonder if it appears on any surviving video footage....

[leopardml2341]

On 26/06/2019 at 00:38, 'CHARD said:

Wonder if it appears on any surviving video footage....

Cine film surely