LNWR London Road - Locomotives and rolling stock

[Jol Wilkinson]

In response to Coachman's request on PinkMouse's thread about the BM LMS Class 4, here are some details on the BM Precursor 4-4-0 I am building - in a very protracted manner. This build has been going on for a couple of years, so some of the assembly details are a little hazy.

I started with the tender, to get a feel for the kit. The BM LNWR tender is for later the Bowen Cooke version, but as I needed the earlier Whale version, I added the BM conversion kit. This provides a cast w/m top, etc. I encountered some problems with the tender body side frames, which are half etched. They distorted as I soldered them in place. I took the opportunity to produce a set of parts in etched nickel silver on a test etch for one of the kits I have designed for London Road Models. In addition to the side frames, these parts included the tool "tunnel", new coal rails and new coal space "fences".

The first two photos show the tender as it now is, awaiting painting.

The tender chassis was built as supplied, but with the addition of compensation on the two leading axles using LRM hornguides/bearings. The two bars accross the front and rear spacers are required to raise the tender body to the correct height as the chassis is too low by 2.0mm. The chassis now has pickups acting on the top of all six wheels.

The next episode will cover the loco frames chassis.

Jol

Edited February 18, 2020 by Jol Wilkinson
Topic title update

[coachmann]

This looks really good. Many thanks. Are the back corners of the Tender half-etched and does one have to punch out the adjacent rivets? Or are the side and back panels overlays?

[Jol Wilkinson]

This looks really good. Many thanks. Are the back corners of the Tender half-etched and does one have to punch out the adjacent rivets? Or are the side and back panels overlays?

 

The side panels, corners and the back panel are separate parts. They are all half etched, to provide the rivet and beading detail. Fortunaltely there are no rivets to emboss. that was the problem with the side frames which, when half etched in 012" brass were too flimsy. I did the replacements in .015" ns, with punched rivet detail.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Episode 2 - the loco frames/chassis.

 

The Brassmasters Precursor chassis is designed along the same lines as their older 4-6-0 LNWR locos. BM also designed a chassis for the 4-4-2 Precursor Tank which London Road Models initially used in their PT loco kit. This chassis has the front end of the frames pivoted ahead of the front driving axle and supported by a compensated bogie.

 

I had built one of these but wasn't entirely happy with it as there is no side control for the front end or any support for the front of the loco. Result, I ended up designing a new chassis for LRM with a sprung bogie and rear radial truck. I modified the artwork to produce a set of frames and P4 spacers for a new Precursor chassis.

 

 

The chassis was built from the new frames, with the coupling rods, brake gear, slide bars, etc. from a LRM Precursor Tank chassis test etch. The chassis is compensated on the leading coupled axle, using LRM hornguides. The driving wheels are Sharman with Alan Gibson bogie wheels. I've used a 1424 Mashima mounted on a LRM 50:1 GB4 motor mount. The "underslung" motor arrangement is my prefered option whenever possible, the motor casing sitting against an angled spacer extension on a double sided sticky pad.[

 

attachment=36380:Chassis 1.JPG]

 

 

 

To follow, Episode 3 - the loco body.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Episode 3 - the body!

 

The Precursor body etch is in .012" brass, unfortunately rather soft in my example. A lot of it is half etched, which exacerbates the problem. The "boiler" supplied was a piece of copper pipe. As it's important to get the firebox end "square" for the round top version (the bits to build the Belpaire firebox version are also included in the kit) I discarded that and turned a suitable piece of brass tube to length in a Unimat. The construction is fairly straightforward but getting the running plate curved over the valances proved rather difficult.

 

I've made the boiler/smokebox a separate bolt on unit. It is a bit difficult to get the cosmetic upper frames that extend back from the smokebox to sit down closely on top of the running plate (which is how the LNWR referred to the footplate) on the RH side. It should be alright when its all bolted together. The cab roof was also a bit fragile until the supports were solderd in, which has stiffened up the cab area . The body will be retained by a 8BA bolt into the rear spacer and the coupling hook through the front buffer beam (retained by a pin). That give a slightly loose fixing, that bprevents the body from distorting the chassis an affecting the running.

 

The boiler fittings are cast white metal, a little disappointing as cast brass is so much better.

 

 

Now I've got this far I'll concentrate a bit more on finishing it. It's been languishing in its box rather too much, but I have been busy building test etches of the next London Road Models LNWR kits as well as working on the layout.

[Weskie]

Hi Jol

 

Looking good so far. It's nice to know you get problems when building kits just like us lesser mortals . How is the layout coming on? Any pictures? Another Topic maybe?

 

I'm still working on the Precursor Tank chassis and trying to get it to run reliably round the corner into 'Clarendon'. As I've sprung the drivers by CSB's it's just a case of getting the correct combination of spring wire. Hopefully I'll have her running for the derby show in a fortnight.

I'm having the same problem with the B4, I think I might modify the front bogie to work similar to the precursor one and see if that might help it get round the curve.

 

Keep at it.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hi Jol

 

Looking good so far. It's nice to know you get problems when building kits just like us lesser mortals . How is the layout coming on? Any pictures? Another Topic maybe?

 

I'm still working on the Precursor Tank chassis and trying to get it to run reliably round the corner into 'Clarendon'. As I've sprung the drivers by CSB's it's just a case of getting the correct combination of spring wire. Hopefully I'll have her running for the derby show in a fortnight.

I'm having the same problem with the B4, I think I might modify the front bogie to work similar to the precursor one and see if that might help it get round the curve.

 

Keep at it.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

 

Andy,

 

thanks, but I've always regarded myself as a lesser mortal as well.

 

I think John Gower's article in the Hornby Magazine stated that the curve into Clarendon was fairly tight. The Precursor Tanks have a longish wheelbase - the prototype derailed it self getting out of Crewe Works - so you may have to ensure you've got the maximum sideplay. As the B4 is suffering too, perhaps you should get the layout modified!

 

Progress on the layout is slow but steady. I'll be away a lot in the next two weeks but I'll endeavour to start a layout thread/blog after that. I'm looking for some local help - the rest of the operating team live around North London - if anyone would like to produce any of the buildings, bridges or signals.

 

Too much of my time recently has gone into designing the Webb rebuilt Bloomer for LRM -

 

 

there is also the original version and short wheelbase tender, so its been rather time consuming. I've also started on four more LNWR 42' Brake Third carriages.

 

Jol

[coachmann]

Even though the 42' LNWR coaches are far too early for my layout I am always keen to see coaches. Northstar Models has produced some LNW 57' non-corridors for me.

 

The Precursor is coming on well. I love these machines, more so with extended smokebox and Belpaire firebox. It is tempting to have one with the excuse one was preserved...

[Penlan]

I can remember the late Guy Williams saying the simplicity of the LNWR 4-4-0's was very difficult to catch with just horizontal lines, getting everything parallel.

 

See you at Expo Jol, and that chimney on the 'Bloomer' looks nice.

 

Penlan

[Jol Wilkinson]

An update for those interested.

 

Designing and building the test etches, followed by the instructions for the LRM BLoomer has been very time consuming and I've also been working on the extension baseboards and trackwork for London Road itself (not to mention enforced holidays, household repairs, etc.).

 

However, a bit of time went into the Precursor and its now finished, bar painting, etc.

[Portchullin Tatty]

Nice work Jol,

 

They were very handsome engines weren't they?

[Guest Phil]

Lovely work there Jol

 

i was talking to our local historian about Bescot matters the other day. He was telling me about a couple of "Renown" class locos which were used on a Bescot-Abergavenny service routing via Salop and the "North & west". He believes the locos were "Agincourt" and "Benbow", and were worked by Bescot men on a "double home trip".

 

Must admit that George Vs, Precursors and Renowns all get a bit muddled in my brain - a bit like the A B C D E F G G1 G2 and G2A !!!!!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Nice work Jol,

 

They were very handsome engines weren't they?

 

I agree that they were handsome locos, I prefer the original Precursor with the short smokebox and separate splashers to the Georges.

 

There is a movement to build a new full scale George. It would be good if some of the enthusaism that went into Tornado and the other, more modern, new builds produced an Edwardian main line loco that we would never otherwise see.

 

Jol

[Jol Wilkinson]

Lovely work there Jol

 

i was talking to our local historian about Bescot matters the other day. He was telling me about a couple of "Renown" class locos which were used on a Bescot-Abergavenny service routing via Salop and the "North & west". He believes the locos were "Agincourt" and "Benbow", and were worked by Bescot men on a "double home trip".

 

Must admit that George Vs, Precursors and Renowns all get a bit muddled in my brain - a bit like the A B C D E F G G1 G2 and G2A !!!!!

 

Thanks, the kit wasn't that straightforward, but worth it in the end. I'm not sure what I'll build next from my stock of boxes (nearly all LRM); possibly a Jumbo.

 

I need to get out Ted Talbot's book (its up in the workshop) to remind myself of the history of the Benbows and Renowns. I think that they were derived from the Jubilees. In the case of the Renowns, as two cylinder simples with the addition of a Whale cab and (possibly) a bigger boiler.

 

Jol

[coachmann]

Lovely model there of a lovely machine. Far better looking than the Georges and their overwide toy-like 'Basset-Lowke' splashers. The Precursor was well named, the first of as new breed for the LNWR. Its the one that should have been preserved in 1949 in my view.

[Penlan]

Jol,

 

I always fancied the 4-4-0 Renown, inside 2 cylinder, simple late Victorian/Edwardian lines. See here photo ref 1259.

 

The Benbow with the outside cylinders and a more complicated running plate (or whatever it's called) here photo ref 1243

 

Here's because not sure on copyrights etc., - the website is at http://www.warwickshirerailways.com

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jol,

 

I always fancied the 4-4-0 Renown, inside 2 cylinder, simple late Victorian/Edwardian lines. See here photo ref 1259.

 

The Benbow with the outside cylinders and a more complicated running plate (or whatever it's called) here photo ref 1243

 

Here's because not sure on copyrights etc., - the website is at http://www.warwickshirerailways.com

 

Sandy,

 

is that a hint that you would buy a Renown if LRM produce one?

 

Jol

[Penlan]

I know it's later than WW1, but yes.........

[Jol Wilkinson]

It has been a long time but the Brassmasters Precursor is now finally complete! 

 

When the one shown above was painted a number of surface defects in the boiler tube were apparent.They turned out to be difficult to fix so my friends at Brassmasters supplied a new etch , while I obtained a new piece of brass boiler tube. The existing chassis and tender were okay, but other modelling commitments took over and the new Precursor body took rather longer than usual.

 

 

 

 

I've also just finished a LRM Coal Tank. Like the Precursor this is 18.83mm gauge, powered by a Mashima motor through a LRM motor mount and gears.

 

 

 

There are also seven LNWR carriages on the bench, undergoing final detailing. I hope I'll be able to post some photos of these completed soon

Edited April 18, 2017 by Jol Wilkinson

[Brassey]

Hi Jol

 

Good to see the Precursor finished - your thread inspired me to get hold of a kit myself (still not started though!)

 

I see that you have elected for the later brake blocks on the coal tank.  Is there a reason why you did not go for the wooden brake blocks?  My reason for asking is that I have found these very fiddly to put together and wondered if you had the same challenge?

 

Cheers

 

Peter

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hello Peter,

 

I found several photos of CTs in the period I am modelling which were fitted with the later brakes. They are, as you say, easier to assemble so I took the simple route!

 

While there is much information about CT brakes, this tends to centre around the efficiency (or otherwise) of the vacuum cylinder and linkage, so a photo of your chosen prototype helps. However, as there were few other obvious extrenal changes to the locos during their lives, modeller's license can be invoked.

 

The Precursor makes up into a lovely looking loco. Although I opted to do my own chassis, I have a LRM Precursor Tank with the original Brassmasters chassis supplied when they were first introduced. This has the swinging front end but I added a centralising/springing wire to the top of the front frames. This locates into a hole in the underside of the body below the smokebox and keeps the front end under control. 

 

Jol

[Penlan]

Jol, re. the Precursor, looks good.

I seem to recall Guy Williams in one of his Loco Building books saying he had made one - a Precursor I believe - and the simplicity of the LNWR 4-4-0's lines were very difficult to model convincingly.  

 

Perhaps that's why he prefered the GWR....      

[BB0849]

The two locos both look really lovely. The elegant simplicity of LNWR 4-4-0s is a really beautiful thing.

 

I've got one of your kits, the LNWR Problem, in the build queue and a lovely kit it looks too.

Edited April 19, 2017 by BB0849

[Daddyman]

Interesting build.

 

Do you or anyone else have pictures of the pivoted front end on the BM chassis?

 

There are no pics on their website. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

Interesting build.

 

Do you or anyone else have pictures of the pivoted front end on the BM chassis?

 

There are no pics on their website. 

I've scanned this page from the Precursor instructions.

 

Basically the front of the frames (which the bogie supports) are split from the main about the position of the front steps (so hiding the join). They are pivoted to the main frames near to the leading coupled axle position. The whole of the front end of the frames and bogie can therefore swing in an arc.

 

Parts 2, 13, 14, 15 and 16 are the front frames and spacers.

Parts 11, 17, 18 and 19 are the main frames and spacers.

Part 16 pivots (swivels) on part 17. 

 

 

 

This arrangement was used by Brassmasters in a Precursor Tank chassis but they didn't get around to producing the body kit. Independently, LRM produced a body kit and initially used the BM chassis. However, this became to expensive so a new LRM chassis was designed, with a sprung bogie and rear radial truck.

 

This photo shows my Precursor Tank with the original BM chassis. You can just see the split in the frames, inboard of the front steps.