1950s rolling stock...Crewe to Shrewsbury

[Mr Pilcher]

Hi all

 

I'm at the planning phase of a new layout based on Crewe in the late 50s.

Can anyone inform me as to what type of coaches and locos that were used on the former GWR routes into Crewe in this period? I see that Halls and Manors were commonplace. What particular coaches were uses fir Wellington and Shrewsbury? I'm guessing at former GWR B sets and cascaded mainline ex GWR stock with some mk1's also. Did chocolate and cream make it to Crewe? Thanks in anticipation. Craig. (Formerly a Crewe boy)

[The Johnster]

You would certainly have seen chocolate and cream coaches arriving at Crewe from the Shrewsbury direction, but not in the late 50s.  WR gangwayed stock had been painted crimson and cream, non-gangwayed crimson, since 1948, and in 1956 the maroon livery, lined for gangwayed and plain for non-gangwayed, began to appear, with lining applied to all stock after 1958.  WR's version of chocolate and cream was used on stock for named trains, but none of these reached Crewe (the Cambrian Coast Express appeared at Shrewsbury).  Main line trains would have been inter regional and an eclectic mixture of stock, running between Liverpool or Manchester, and Cardiff or Plymouth.  There was a Plymouth-Glasgow through train in each direction.  Ex GW and LMS stock would have dominated but not exclusively; a few Gresleys, Thompsons, and Mk1s would be in evidence. 

 

I know less about the local services so will say less.  I doubt B sets appeared much, though; they were mostly allocated to specific branch work and I would have expected other non-gangwayed stock to be used.  As for locos, have a look at what was allocated to Gresty Lane, Shrewsbury and Wellington.  I would guess that 5101s were usual on local services, and the main line trains would be the preserve of Halls, Counties, Granges, or Castles if the WR loco had not come off at Pontypool Road, Hereford, or Shrewsbury to be replaced by a Jubilee, Patriot, or Royal Scot.  The Shrewsbury route was used for running in locos from Crewe works, and LMS pacifics could appear.  BR standards, both WR and LMR allocated, would be making an impact as well, Britannia pacifics and Class 5MT 4-6-0s in particular.  Any Canton loco allocated to an inter-regional duty would have been polished within an inch of it's life, including freight turns.

 

Manors would not be impossible, nor would their BR standard equivalent the Class 4MT 4-6-0, but Shrewsbury allocated engines would probably have been kept off this route in favour of duty on the Cambrian where their route availability was needed, and I would have thought they were unusual.  Freight locos would by and large be taken off at Shrewsbury and replaced with LMR locos, 8Fs primarily, but again, it would not be impossible for an 28xx or 72xx to slip through if no relief loco was available at Shrewsbury.  WDs and 9Fs from both regions would appear as well.  The GW had it's own facilities at Crewe, at Gresty Lane.

 

Don't forget the parcels traffic, a very significant feature of this route, and if you are going to run a 24 hour timetable the Cardiff-Crewe-York TPO needs to feature.

 

A model of Crewe, even 'just' the GW part, is a very ambitious venture; good luck and keep us posted!

[Marshall5]

I have a photo of a Manor in one of the bays at Crewe taken by my old man c.1960. If I can dig it out I'll let you have the number.  I also have one of Wellington shed with a 'B' set stabled alongside - whether that worked towards Crewe or elsewhere I have no idea.  Sorry can't be more help.

Ray.

[The Johnster]

A Wellington B set probably worked on the Much Wenlock or Market Drayton branches.  

[Mr Pilcher]

A big thanks to The Johnster for all that info...just about covered it all for me.

 

Yes a model of Crewe station appears a daunting task. However, I have scaled the layout down somewhat. I have decided to not model the 1913 extension which was platform 1 (now defunct) and just model the pre 1913 station arrangement which was contained within 2 rows of these brick screens. As for the track layout I am using something similar to the rationised 1985 plan.

That would make 3 sets of double bays, 4 main platforms and 2 through lines. The current platform 12 is excluded as it's part of the extension.

Max platform length at Crewe is 1700 ft. I have a large room, but will scale that back, for sure.

 

The only thing that frightens me is the mess of roofing that seemed to evolve with time.

 

Having been born there, grew up as a boy travelling by train to school, I can visualise a lot of aspects of the station. That included trainspotting as a 8 year old with Dad back in 67/68!

[The Johnster]

You are going to need a pretty impressive fiddle yard to even 'representatively' suggest the traffic, if you are not to be spending excessive amounts of time putting stock on the layout or taking it off!  Even with your scaling down this is going to be a very impressive layout.  Keep us posted, Mr P!

[brainh]

Hopefully I can add a little to what The Johnster has already told you.  The North and West route expresses & freight trains all changed locos at Shrewsbury prior to the arrival of the warships & westerns when the changes were made at Crewe. Counties did not make it to Crewe, I believe due to their overall cylinder spacing being out of gauge with EX LMS platforms. It should also be said that any western engines that did make it on freight trains would use the station avoiding lines and change engines at Gresty Green.

Parcels trains on this route could turn up with anything at the head.

Prior to dieselisation Local Passenger trains always seemed to be formed of EX LMS stock.  The mainstay motive power was Stanier tanks but anything, particularly ex works could turn up so it was not uncommon to see a Duchess on 3 woebegone none corridor coaches. These trains used Platform 4B, now 7.

 

Whilst on the Shrewsbury route it is worth mentioning that at Whitchurch there was a direct connection to the Cambrian lines via Oswestry. The through service from Aberystwyth to Crewe almost invariably brought a Manor into Crewe. Some of the Oswestry - Whitchurch also ran through to Crewe, again almost always with Manors. One of these trains also conveyed milk tanks as tail traffic. These trains usually terminated in Platform 1B or 2B neither of which exist today as they are part of the extension not to be modelled.

 

Crewe - Wellington passenger services were provided by 2 B sets as the norm. Normally hauled by 4158 or 4178.  Around the late fifties,  BR 3MT tanks were regular for a period, not sure of exact dates 82005 & 82009 were regulars  followed by Ivatt 2MT tanks 41232 & 41241 being regulars.  Loco substitutions were usually Wellington based 8750 tanks though a Hall has been known to have been used along with Collett, Hawksworth & MK 1's .  These trains used Platform 3B, now 8.

There were no through passenger services over this line Except for The Pines Express for a couple of summers in the early sixties, almost always an EE Type 4 diesel.

Parcels trains on this route frequently brought castles into Crewe.

 

Freight traffic was headed mostly by western steam and almost anything could be seem but again would not been seen in Crewe station as engine changes were again done at Gresty Green.

 

Hope this helps and look forward to your future progress with this project. 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2019 by brainh

[Norton961]

A clarification on the Pines Express through Wellington. Yes it was regularly hauled by Class 40s but Britannia’s were not unknown I remember Earl Haig on the train on one occasion.

There are lots of photos of Wellington trains to Crewe in the book The Railways of Telford by Crowood Press.

[Norton961]

Another book to have is By Great Western to Crewe by Bob Yate ( Oakwood Press)  which has lots of details about loco workings between Crewe and Wellington.

Regarding the Pines express In May and June 1963 one of Edge Hills re built Scots 46110 Greadier Gurdsman was noted on the Pines once a week. There was also a relief Pines and one of Carlisle’s re built Scots 46166 was seen at Wolverhampton on the northbound service. 

In October 1963 6847 was seen at Patform 2 at Crewe with a train possibly to Shrewsbuty. 45060 was also seen working into Crewe with a train from Shrewsbury. Unusually on a Crewe to Wellington service was 4943 Marrington Hall in 1963. 

In September 1963 46345 City of London worked a Birmingham to Crewe works special train. ( I watched the train through Wellington).

 

David

[Mr Pilcher]

Thanks again for all your contributions. Having discovered all of this, may I ask does anyone know what stock was used on the line between crewe and stoke prior to dmu operation in the same period?