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Storm-hit Dawlish railway line 'may be moved out to sea'


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6 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

So Plymouth and Exeter are nowhere...

 

Isn't an inland route more likely to see the seawall route via Dawlish closed at some time in the future if maintenance costs become excessive due to climate change? Or even abandoned earlier because of the proximity of an inland route? So aren't the long term interests of Dawlish and Teignmouth residents best served by supporting the Okehampton line reinstatement as it can't replace the line via Dawlish?

 

Ask the residents of the English Riviera, their views on the subject.

 

 

 

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One cannot but compare this with the recent past works and future dilemma facing the track between Dover and Folkestone, particularly Shakespeare Cliff.

 

A, basically underground, concrete viaduct, solved the immediate sink-hole problem (caused by sea erosion) a few years ago, along with armoured sea wall protection, at a similar cost to what is now in hand at Dawlish. And it was all done inside nine months. But there remains a future threat -  I have seen little since that time about what future-proofing looks like in that area, somewhat slightly more busy than the GW in SW England. Perhaps it is a very good thing that NR and others are actively seeking a solution and publicising it for comment, in the case of Devon?

 

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10 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

Isn't an inland route more likely to see the seawall route via Dawlish closed at some time in the future if maintenance costs become excessive due to climate change? Or even abandoned earlier because of the proximity of an inland route? So aren't the long term interests of Dawlish and Teignmouth residents best served by supporting the Okehampton line reinstatement as it can't replace the line via Dawlish?

 

It doesn't matter where the inland route ends up, as soon as it is done the Dawlish seawall becomes redundant as a rail line and the countdown timer starts on its closure - there simply won't be enough money to run / maintain 2 mainlines through Devon.

 

Thus the Dawlish and Teignmouth residents are best serviced by an alternate line that at least remains reasonably close to them.

 

 

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20 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

Isn't an inland route more likely to see the seawall route via Dawlish closed at some time in the future if maintenance costs become excessive due to climate change? 

 

Getting a little off topic but there are few places in a lot more danger than Dawlish. Gwynedd Council is now seriously considering a halt to flood management for Fairbourne, which could see the town abandoned in around 25 years. That plus ongoing issues with the Barmouth Bridge could have serious implications for the Cambrian line.

 

Cheers

David

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12 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

One cannot but compare this with the recent past works and future dilemma facing the track between Dover and Folkestone, particularly Shakespeare Cliff.

 

A, basically underground, concrete viaduct, solved the immediate sink-hole problem (caused by sea erosion) a few years ago, along with armoured sea wall protection, at a similar cost to what is now in hand at Dawlish. And it was all done inside nine months. But there remains a future threat -  I have seen little since that time about what future-proofing looks like in that area, somewhat slightly more busy than the GW in SW England. Perhaps it is a very good thing that NR and others are actively seeking a solution and publicising it for comment, in the case of Devon?

 

A good deal of the area around Shakespere Cliff is protected by 'Samphire Hoe', a wide strech of fairly level made ground, built using spoil from the Channel Tunnel. This was tipped behind  a sea-wall of Larsen piles, protected by rock-armour.

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22 hours ago, dvdlcs said:

 

Only problem with a clear tunnel, whether glass or polycarbonate, would be how long it would remain clear for. Salt water and sand are rather abrasive and the initially clear tunnel could become opaque in time.

In that case just make an opaque tunnel initially.

When you buy your ticket it isn't on the understanding that you will have sweeping vistas of wildebeest majestically crossing the plains, its just an A to B jobbie. 

It's a bonus if you can't see Dawlish!

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14 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

Ask the residents of the English Riviera, their views on the subject.

 

 

 

I would imagine if a direct line from Exeter to Newton was made it would result in a Teignmouth to Paignton shuttle service. Dawlish would miss out but hey, as the sea encroaches inland they wont have so far to walk to the beach.  

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The essential question is whether the disruption caused to rail services when the coastal route is closed justifies the expense of any alternative route, bearing in mind that rail is not the only means of transport serving the south west, and is probably not the dominant means either, certainly for freight at least. IMHO the most realistic prospect is the LSWR route via Okehampton being re-opened as a local railway but with the ability to carry a limited (but better than nothing) through service if the coastal route is shut.

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43 minutes ago, caradoc said:

The essential question is whether the disruption caused to rail services when the coastal route is closed justifies the expense of any alternative route, bearing in mind that rail is not the only means of transport serving the south west, and is probably not the dominant means either, certainly for freight at least. IMHO the most realistic prospect is the LSWR route via Okehampton being re-opened as a local railway but with the ability to carry a limited (but better than nothing) through service if the coastal route is shut.

But politically the rail link is huge, especially in an era when UK politics is in a most unstable state, so that alienating constituencies is not what any party is seeking to do. SW MPs would not be kindly disposed to abandonment. Cornwall already is one of the few (maybe the only?) counties without any motorway. Having no decent railway link to London either could make this impoverished county even poorer. And Plymouth would certainly resent being fobbed off with a slower service to the capital. As for Torbay, the current MP snuck in to everyone's surprise at the last General Election, having had plenty of time to canvass as he was previously unemployed. A backlash among voters could change things there. 

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On ‎13‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 13:59, Zomboid said:

The value of a diversionary route is surely obvious... Whatever that route is would have to be, if not highly profitable, then at least not a financial basket case at all times. Okehampton or an inland high speed route would be subject to the same.

 

The every day benefits of the LSWR line (or something similar, since the land has been sold there's no reason to stick to what the Victorians built) would be serving new markets. And the Dawlish bypass would be to serve some existing markets quicker. Neither would be cheap, but I'd imagine that a new secondary route round the top of Dartmoor would bring in more new custom than a realigned main line to the south. Whether it would be enough to justify building it is a different question.

 

On the other hand, given that Cowley Bridge is often under water and Dartmoor can suffer awful weather just as much as the coast, the value of the LSWR route from Exeter to Plymouth is perhaps not as useful for diversions as the Yeovil to Exeter part.

Exeter is also expanding rapidly to the east. There is already a new Station that I did not know existed until I went that way in March. The potential to further upgrade the Honiton to Central stretch is there, IMO.

The NR plan seems OK to solve two problems. Really what is needed is a robust railway and only in the most dreadful conditions maybe there is a need to postpone services along that stretch. In theory that would not happen in future unless there was a Hurricane?

However, the knock on effect from the 'new' coastline could be a problem elsewhere, but I am no marine (or any other type of) engineer. That is why earlier I was not going to suggest an alternative as I do not know enough about the circumstances to suggest any.

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On ‎17‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 12:29, kevinlms said:

All valid points of course and thank you for your comments. I wrote about the clear tunnel, after reading about the suggestions of reinstating the Okehampton line for the area, which sounds like a non starter for several reasons, not least a line that goes nowhere.

Oi dude. You in Aus have plenty of railway that goes to bu##er all places for thousands of miles :pleasantry::P

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13 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Oi dude. You in Aus have plenty of railway that goes to bu##er all places for thousands of miles :pleasantry::P

I'm sure the people of Dawlish, who currently can catch a train in town, would think that having to go to Okehampton to catch the train, is like going to the black stump!

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1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Exeter is also expanding rapidly to the east. There is already a new Station that I did not know existed until I went that way in March. The potential to further upgrade the Honiton to Central stretch is there, IMO.

The NR plan seems OK to solve two problems. Really what is needed is a robust railway and only in the most dreadful conditions maybe there is a need to postpone services along that stretch. In theory that would not happen in future unless there was a Hurricane?

However, the knock on effect from the 'new' coastline could be a problem elsewhere, but I am no marine (or any other type of) engineer. That is why earlier I was not going to suggest an alternative as I do not know enough about the circumstances to suggest any.

NR seems to recognise Exeter is growing but the people of Wellington, Som, had their station closed by Beeching and Wellington is also growing. 

I wonder if Exeter isn't one of the smallest cities with the most stations.

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31 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

A station at Wellington, with a good service to Taunton at least would reduce congestion on the A38.

 

 

Would it?  The problem with travelling b y train from Werllington to Taunton is firstly getting to the station in Wellington, especially if you live nearer to the A38 that you do to the railway.   And secondly getting from the station in Taunton to wherever you actually need to get to.  I suspect that getting folk to change mode from door-to-door private car to using a train and whatever else at either end might need some fairly hefty inducements or disincentives.  One day that might happen but perhaps not yet. 

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3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

But politically the rail link is huge, especially in an era when UK politics is in a most unstable state, so that alienating constituencies is not what any party is seeking to do. SW MPs would not be kindly disposed to abandonment. Cornwall already is one of the few (maybe the only?) counties without any motorway. Having no decent railway link to London either could make this impoverished county even poorer. And Plymouth would certainly resent being fobbed off with a slower service to the capital. As for Torbay, the current MP snuck in to everyone's surprise at the last General Election, having had plenty of time to canvass as he was previously unemployed. A backlash among voters could change things there. 

 

I was not suggesting that the existing route be abandoned ! In fact, it should remain the primary route, but recognising that it is subject to weather disruption, very occasionally for long periods, another route by which some form of through service could be maintained would be useful, in much the same way as the GSW route stepped in when the WCML was shut at Lamington Viaduct during early 2016.

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40 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Would it?  The problem with travelling b y train from Werllington to Taunton is firstly getting to the station in Wellington, especially if you live nearer to the A38 that you do to the railway.   And secondly getting from the station in Taunton to wherever you actually need to get to.  I suspect that getting folk to change mode from door-to-door private car to using a train and whatever else at either end might need some fairly hefty inducements or disincentives.  One day that might happen but perhaps not yet. 

 

I agree. But many people joining the train at Wellington might well be travelling to Bristol or Exeter rather than Taunton. In a similar way, Wilton was one of the least used stations on the LSW main line as too close to Salisbury. But people did not commute so willingly back then. For me, the main problem in re-opening Wellington is that it will be expensive. I don't think it can just be two new platforms given how busy the line is. It would probably need the platform loops reinstated.

 

Back on topic, I have just been on Google Earth. Amazing how much of the Exeter to Heathfield line is still visible from the air. Perhaps not so difficult to reinstate as an emergency route although a bit tricky around the Sainsbury's in Exeter.

 

I know the geology around Dawlish is not the easiest but I do wonder if a tunnel slightly inland would not be technically easier and cheaper than messing with the shoreline.

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22 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Would it?  The problem with travelling b y train from Werllington to Taunton is firstly getting to the station in Wellington, especially if you live nearer to the A38 that you do to the railway.   And secondly getting from the station in Taunton to wherever you actually need to get to.  I suspect that getting folk to change mode from door-to-door private car to using a train and whatever else at either end might need some fairly hefty inducements or disincentives.  One day that might happen but perhaps not yet. 

 

For some years there has been suggestions about re-opening both Wellington and Cullomptom stations as a way of tackling traffic problems caused by commuters from said locations driving into Taunton / Exeter*. Given the way said places have grown in the past few decades I feel that a hourly service would wash its face financially - the big question is whether there are the paths to let it happen as it’s a pretty busy railway.

 

* Note, while residents of said towns could drive to Tiverton Parkway in some cases, if you are already driving then why not continue to your destination in your car anyway? It would be interesting to see the ticket statistics for Tiverton Parkway as I reckon the majority will be for long distance destinations (London, Bristol, Plymouth, etc than Taunton or Exeter.

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56 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

I was not suggesting that the existing route be abandoned ! In fact, it should remain the primary route, but recognising that it is subject to weather disruption, very occasionally for long periods, another route by which some form of through service could be maintained would be useful, in much the same way as the GSW route stepped in when the WCML was shut at Lamington Viaduct during early 2016.

But the only way such an alternative route could be created is by building it - and that would be expensive, whatever route it was.  So logically - on the basis of economics alone - the inland route will present a good (and probably the best) case especially as it offers journey time improvements which would result in revenue growth.

 

The population of Teignmouth, which could readily be served by a station on an inland route following the 1936 line, is almost three times that of Okehampton. (2011 census figures),  while Okehampton and Tavistock combined only exceed the population of Teignmouth by a couple of thousand. The largest single town on the coast north of the 'round the moor line' is Barnstaple with a population of c.20,000 but it already has a rail link to Exeter and a good road link to Tiverton Parkway so it, and nearby towns such as Bideford, are hardly likely to be a hinterland for long distance, or even local, rail travel from Okehampton except perhaps towards Plymouth.  Teignbridge council area alone has a larger population than West Devon and Torridge added together.  And the coastal/southern area total more than doubles once Torbay is added in  - over a quarter of a million people served by the existing coastal route/having reasonable access to it compored with 123,000 on the north/northwest side of Dartmoor right out to the coast with many of them much further from potential stations than, say, the 135,000 people living in the Torbay area.  and that's before we even think about holiday time population growth.

 

On sheer size of area served and potential hinterland for park & ride or kiss & drop passengers the old L&SWR route has little to support long distance passenger traffic and a relatively smaller populations to support a substantial (if it is to be a diversionary route)  part-time mainline.

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5 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

...

Cornwall already is one of the few (maybe the only?) counties without any motorway. 

...

 

Cornwall is by no means alone. Norfolk doesn't have a single mile of motorway, either.

 

The old joke used to go "which motorway is closest to Norwich?"; the answer given was "the Amsterdam ring road". In fact, that's not true (the M11 at Cambridge is closer). But the fact that it seems plausible tells you what you need to know.

 

Paul

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2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Would it?  The problem with travelling b y train from Werllington to Taunton is firstly getting to the station in Wellington, especially if you live nearer to the A38 that you do to the railway.   And secondly getting from the station in Taunton to wherever you actually need to get to.  I suspect that getting folk to change mode from door-to-door private car to using a train and whatever else at either end might need some fairly hefty inducements or disincentives.  One day that might happen but perhaps not yet. 

The station may be slightly out of the town in Wellington but having lived in Wellington a few years I would have preferred getting a train from there rather than having to get into Taunton and then getting to the station.  Especially if I wanted to travel westward.  Since I moved from Wellington the population must have increased sizeably.  

At least a repurposed Wellington station would be nothing like Tiverton Parkway serves Tiverton.

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Apologies for digressing.

 

How much more room did double track broadgauge take over double track standard gauge?  At points along the Teignmouth seawall there doesn't seem to be much for much extra width.

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