MGR Hooper! Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 On 13/07/2019 at 23:05, lewey13 said: I have real issues with the way this has been handled by the gentleman concerned the crowd funders have been treated appallingly!!!. It appears that the payments made have been used to fund other bills etc with promises made to me not honoured in any way.Shame on you. I really hope no one talks about you this way when you're seriously ill..... Shame on you! 1 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiles Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 It's interesting the compare the total contrast in which the LLC and DJM situations are being viewed. Very interesting indeed. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 22 minutes ago, admiles said: It's interesting the compare the total contrast in which the LLC and DJM situations are being viewed. Very interesting indeed. What's even more interesting is the total contrast in which the two situations came about and were dealt with by the owners. Very interesting indeed. 3 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 36 minutes ago, admiles said: It's interesting the compare the total contrast in which the LLC and DJM situations are being viewed. Very interesting indeed. In both cases there is a similarity in that in all probability people funding a specific project (for DJM read projects) up front will lose their money. In both cases that has led to aggrieved parties. However as far as I can see beyond that, the situations have been brought about by quite different circumstances, in this case the unforeseen ill health of the Proprietor of LLC and consequent inability to focus on the business is markedly different and his health, treatment and recovery has of necessity become the overwhelming priority. Who would have different priorities in such a situation? Also, as far as his situation and health allows he has tried hard to find a solution to the LLC issues rather than just wash his hands of things as he might have, and been very open about the situation in updates that have come through. That he is not entering into correspondence with individuals, though doubtless frustrating for some, is again understandable as sitting in front of a computer and increasing stress levels is probably far from ideal in the circumstances. I do totally get that there will be frustrated parties who in all likelihood will lose money and not see things the same way, and it is true that a different set of circumstances wouldn't have necessarily guaranteed a different outcome. However the reality is we will never know, things are where they are, and it is good to see so many people adopting a philosophical and human stance, being more concerned for Steve's health and recovery. Roy 5 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 17, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 hours ago, admiles said: It's interesting the compare the total contrast in which the LLC and DJM situations are being viewed. Very interesting indeed. 1 hour ago, truffy said: What's even more interesting is the total contrast in which the two situations came about and were dealt with by the owners. Very interesting indeed. Not really any comparison at all in my view. On the one hand we have an apparently successful business seeking to develop radical new products hit hard by the serious illness of its owner. On the other hand we have an established business with, compared with its promises, a relatively poor record of delivering own label products having to resort to ground funding in order to keep going after several years in business. The only comparison I can see is that both are small companies. And while the owner of one has been doing his best to save the business and money invested in it while suffering apparently serious illness the owner of the other has just walked away. 3 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 16 hours ago, Roy L S said: However the reality is we will never know, things are where they are, and it is good to see so many people adopting a philosophical and human stance, being more concerned for Steve's health and recovery. 15 hours ago, The Stationmaster said: And while the owner of one has been doing his best to save the business and money invested in it while suffering apparently serious illness the owner of the other has just walked away. Those last two posts are some of the most balanced, reasonable and sensible I have ever read on here. So often there seems to be anger, selfishness and unreasonable attitudes when it comes to new models, but we must put everything into context and remember that there are people, families and lives behind all these businesses. These matters are far more important than our toys. I don't really think there is any more to say now on the LLCo situation until Steve issues an update. We know this will come when he has some news and when he is ready to do so. Once again I just offer him my thoughts and hope his health is improving. 2 10 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris coates Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 The Class 22 project appeared to be the start of a new generation of models that were both accurate and technically advanced. Had Steve not become ill then perhaps this situation would not have occurred or maybe not been as serious as it has now become. I am sorry to learn that Steve has not been able to find anyone, or any group of people, who will continue his early work. By the sound of things the project needs £100,000 injecting but, if it is viable, then surely this would be a good investment and a supporter would eventually come out on the right side of it. Its a hell of a lot of money but there are people in this hobby who have this kind of money and if we let this kind of enterprise die then there is little incentive for others to get involved in similar projects... so the whole hobby will suffer and those "long dreamed of models" will probably never appear. Steve has offered his technical experience to those who will get involved so let's just pray that someone/some group with foresight will prevent this worthy project from disappearing forever. I just wish I had the cash as I don't think it's a loser. Also bear in mind what would probably have followed had Steve not become ill. A Class 28 Metrovick, a class 24 and the large Warship were all models on his wish list and who knows what else. At least they would have been completely accurate as this was Steve's standard of excellence. Hopefully Steve, with improving health, could also continue to be involved as he obviously has a reasonable level of experience in this field having already produced the superb class 15. It's too good a venture to fail and if it could just get this cash injection to get back on its feet I am convinced its a winner. 3 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted July 25, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2019 In the big scheme of things finding c£100k isnt that hard. indeed if those who have crowdfunded, doubled down, formed a company by shares they could get the sum relatively quickly. The harder part is the skills /resources to deliver it. All the best, with recovery. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris coates Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 I did copy my section (above) to LLC facebook page but also added that I personally would rather put more into the pot than not see the Class 22 appear. I would not do so without it being a legally binding contract that there would be a model Class 22 or a refund...no iffs or buts. I am sure there are others who feel the same but, if people don't come forward, then nothing will happen and we will all lose out. I don't have the skills or experience to progress this financially but perhaps some "funders" do? This may be the last chance to salvage something from this situation? One possible scenario might be to take Steve's development progress and explore a manufacturer in China. Although virtually starting from scratch, if the people who would now have shares in the company are not looking to make any profit (just get a model at a decent price) then perhaps it is feasible? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 3 hours ago, chris coates said: I did copy my section (above) to LLC facebook page but also added that I personally would rather put more into the pot than not see the Class 22 appear. I would not do so without it being a legally binding contract that there would be a model Class 22 or a refund...no iffs or buts. I am sure there are others who feel the same but, if people don't come forward, then nothing will happen and we will all lose out. I don't have the skills or experience to progress this financially but perhaps some "funders" do? This may be the last chance to salvage something from this situation? One possible scenario might be to take Steve's development progress and explore a manufacturer in China. Although virtually starting from scratch, if the people who would now have shares in the company are not looking to make any profit (just get a model at a decent price) then perhaps it is feasible? Is there the expertise, business acumen and contacts amongst funders to undertake such a proposal though? Is it not dangerous ground when trying to mix a hobby and a business, especially with so many folk involved? I am not being unduly negative but I would imagine that it is still best if the LLCo projects are taken on by an established manufacturer or company. Either that or someone, or a group of folks, invests in Steve's existing company and he is able to realise the projects in time. This is obviously totally dependent on his health and his ability and/or desire to continue on but, from what he has said, this appetite may not be there. Indeed, the negative impacts on his health are likely to make this a non-starter. The further complication is that there are two models in development. As I understand, the Ruston is ready for production but no money has been committed by customers. We have been able to 'reserve' our model for a couple of years now (I did this a long time ago) but were not required to commit any funds up front. The Class 22 is further behind in terms of development but purchasers have already committed money towards the model. The inter-relationship between the two could be an issue for a perspective buyer(s). I see the best case scenario regarding the models is that an established firm(s) take on both the Ruston and Class 22 rather than crowdfunding or a cooperative or collective approach. Whilst undoubtedly well-meaning, I just think the latter is ripe for failure and heartache. However, the primary issue and consideration remains that of Steve's health and well-being. If any of the above is wrong, then I apologise and please feel free to correct me. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted July 27, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2019 12 hours ago, chris coates said: I did copy my section (above) to LLC facebook page but also added that I personally would rather put more into the pot than not see the Class 22 appear. I would not do so without it being a legally binding contract that there would be a model Class 22 or a refund...no iffs or buts. I am sure there are others who feel the same but, if people don't come forward, then nothing will happen and we will all lose out. I don't have the skills or experience to progress this financially but perhaps some "funders" do? This may be the last chance to salvage something from this situation? One possible scenario might be to take Steve's development progress and explore a manufacturer in China. Although virtually starting from scratch, if the people who would now have shares in the company are not looking to make any profit (just get a model at a decent price) then perhaps it is feasible? An interesting idea but isn't it essentially layering another wave of crowd funding over a crowd funded project which has very little to show for the initial wave of investment? There seems to have been some sort of hole in the initial finances; I can easily see how illness would entail a delay to the project but not the money running out. How would a repeat of this be avoided? What would happen if half the original punters stumped up some more and models were made, would the remaining more cautious, less able to afford half be able to buy in afterwards? What about the original concept of direct sales to other than the crowdfunding group? 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris coates Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 Hi Neil I was careful to mention "legally binding" by which I do not mean crowdfunding. How this would be done I cant say as I don't have the legal knowledge but I'm sure there is a method. I understand people will not now fund something that has previously failed but if a model could be guaranteed (legally) then would people back it? If those investors are seeking no profit then the end model should surely be cheaper. Would it be offered to others, yes but at a higher price and this could then be repaid to the original investors or, if agreed, used to fund another model. I'm sure some people will say I'm talking rubbish...maybe I am...but it would superb if we could find a way to make it happen. Steve was so close and would have succeeded if he hadn't become ill. You just can't account for these things. I agree the way things were financed at LLC were quite clouded and I guess most funders thought they were paying towards a Class 22 not a Rushton. Whilst I cannot support the way this has been done I suspect we would have been completely unaware of this had things gone as planned and may well be the normal method for these things. Is all hope lost? What does surprise me is that the likes of Dapol/Heljan/Hattons etc. haven't seen the potential of what exists, purchased the design work off Steve and produced it in China...or am I just missing something? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 14 hours ago, chris coates said: I would not do so without it being a legally binding contract that there would be a model Class 22 or a refund...no iffs or buts. I am not sure how that would work in such a scenario? If additional money were paid into the pot at some stage of stages in the process it is then handed over to pay for steps that deliver the model. If for some reason something goes wrong at any stage there would arguably be insufficient money from which to make the refunds. There will always be a risk, how well that risk is managed influences how much of one, but I would be very surprised if there is any way you could have your cake and eat it in this way. Roy 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 Another thread I've just picked up on. I wish the owner of the company an improvement in his health. It seems that a lot of people on here have little idea of how a limited company works, assuming the LLC is a limited company. Funding can be from a number of sources for a company, shareholders, banks, loan companies, individuals lending money. That money all goes into the company accounts as liabilities, money that has come from "somewhere" and will have to be repaid one day from "somewhere". That is basically what the balance sheet shows. There will be according to the figures given above by Steve loans of £15k, and an overdraft facility of £10k. Has the overdraft been used? Both those liabilities will have to be repaid. Where did the rest of the £65k development costs for the other products come from? Profit on sales? Private loans? Advance sales? All these should be on the balance sheet as liabilities. Some have mentioned cash flow. Cash flow is usually shown on the profit/loss account. any business worth its salt should have produced a cash flow prediction so they can plan accordingly. LLC will know when the phone bill has to be paid, premises rent, rates, electricity etc. what is not so predictable are the costs for producing the models. Cash will flow out at an alarming rate and can take a long time to come back in, maybe years when producing models. A limited company is a legal separate entity, in effect a person that isn't a person but a bit of paper if that makes sense. Anyone taking on the company, whether or not Steve "gives it away" will also be taking on all the liabilities of the company as well as whatever assets it may have, such as a stock of model locos, tooling, packing materials, maybe premises? If assets don't equal liabilities then more cash will need to be found to make up that difference or the company runs out of money. Whoever takes this on needs to go in with their eyes open and very deep pockets. 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl of Pembroke Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 I suspect the other manufacturers have been approached, but having done due diligence into the business and the principal decided it was not for them. It is noteworthy that the principal's previous business Citrus DM Ltd was dissolved by Companies House in 2016 through compulsory strike-off, having previously been granted an extension of its accounting period from October 2014 to March 2015. A compulsory strike-off is usually the result of failure to file company accounts or non-payment of tax. Here is the Companies House link: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/07420392/filing-history The mystery about what has happened to the Class 22 advance cash payments is a major question and while it remains unanswered is a deterrent to any potential investor. As is often said on a certain TV programme, "I'm out." Charles Trelawney 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgood Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 Please note that until very recent years (maybe 2016 / 17?) it was quite common practice to allow a dormant company to be 'struck off' in order to extinguish it as a legal entity, simply by failing to return annual accounts. It therefore does not follow that a company having been 'struck off' was involved in any financial or other problems or wrong-doing. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 27, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 27, 2019 15 minutes ago, Osgood said: Please note that until very recent years (maybe 2016 / 17?) it was quite common practice to allow a dormant company to be 'struck off' in order to extinguish it as a legal entity, simply by failing to return annual accounts. It therefore does not follow that a company having been 'struck off' was involved in any financial or other problems or wrong-doing. Agree and if anyone is interested they will find a very similar situation to the one mentioned above where exactly teh same thing happened. In that case the principal Director has very recently been appointed Secretaryu of State for Transport. Simple message - companies die or allowed to die for all sorts of reasons and all the time. We are - yet again - hardly talking about any sort of comparison with, say, DJM 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted July 27, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, Neverwood said: This situation is extremely sad for all concerned. As someone who would have been delighted to get a Class 22 built to Steve's high standards, I am merely one amongst many others who invested in the scheme. It is a well known and oft-repeated warning that investments can fail and for myself, I have accepted that this now applies in this instance. It is apparent that those in the Trade who have looked at the situation assess it as being non-viable. So be it. Regrettably much of the foregoing interesting and learned comments and observations will not alter the case and each of us must find his own solution to the manner in which events have affected them. As far as I am personally concerned my 'railway fund' has taken a bit of a dent, but I can live with that and I consider the matter now closed. I have elsewhere published my best wishes for Steve's recovery to health, and would repeat that sentiment here. This is a purely personal viewpoint and anyone should feel free to disagree with it should they so wish. I don't know who in the trade has looked at this and decided that it is not viable. It very well may be viable but the information is not being made available to reach that conclusion. This could be an ideal situation for a "pre-pack" administration. I normally disapprove strongly of "pre-packs". But it could give the best outcome here in de-risking a takeover of the project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted July 30, 2019 Author Administrators Share Posted July 30, 2019 On 27/07/2019 at 14:21, Joseph_Pestell said: I don't know who in the trade has looked at this and decided that it is not viable. It very well may be viable but the information is not being made available to reach that conclusion. I have talked to a couple of potential members of the trade about this and while both are aware of the projects, neither felt they were viable for them to take over. I'd be very surprised if there is any manufacturer not aware of the LLC projects. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervyn Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Has anyone any news on LLC is the company still viable or has it been wound up?... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 I notice the LLC facebook page has now gone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervyn Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 So is the company now insolvent ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted September 25, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 25, 2019 On 23/09/2019 at 18:53, mervyn said: So is the company now insolvent ? Still officially exists, so some hope yet. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09818565 Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervyn Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 Ta Ray might still see a class 22 yet! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 12 hours ago, mervyn said: Ta Ray might still see a class 22 yet! Much as I'd also like to see it, I seriously doubt it'll happen. I spoke to another Manufacturer at Telford Guildex, who had looked at the possibility of taking over production of this model. They were categorical that there will be no more models from L.L.Co, & there's no money in the kitty either. Oh & they decided the costs/figures didn't add up for the 22 either, so declined to take it on. Say a permanent goodbye to your crowdfunding payments. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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