Virgin plans open access Liverpool-London service

[DavidB-AU]

Virgin Trains plans to launch a new hourly train service between Liverpool and London when it loses its current franchise which includes the route. The service would rival the new operator of the West Coast Mainline from May 2021.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-48596575

 

[wombatofludham]

Oh the Irony.  Thanks to the botched Railtrack upgrade of the WCML meaning that the Virgin consortium's financial plans based on 140mph operation were blown out of the water, they have benefitted for the lifetime of their franchise from "Moderation of Competition" meaning open access competition like that seem on the ECML has been effectively stopped, or, for example with the short lived Wrexham and Shropshire service, was prohibited from making any pickups at Wolverhampton.  Whilst there has been some competition from London Midland (now LNWR), it's not been on a like for like basis and in the case of Birmingham, was only perpetuating the situation that existed before Privatisation.

 

Now, as the Government has stripped the consortium of the right to bid for the next franchise, suddenly all bets are off and Virgin now want to have open access.

 

This will be interesting.

[Miss Prism]

Is this wheeze a new use for old HSTs?

 

 

[DavidB-AU]

If Virgin can't keep the lease on any Pendos from Angel, my guess would be Mk 4s from Eversholt after they are displaced from the ECML. GNWR will be using them to Blackpool North.

 

EDIT: Or if the business case is sound, potentially some 801s.

 

Cheers

David

Edited June 12, 2019 by DavidB-AU

[wombatofludham]

They've already said they will be using short formation 91+Mk4 sets running at 110mph, hence the slower journey times.  The idea is the short formations will increase acceleration.  Looks like there might be a bidding war brewing for the 91s and Mk4s with the GNWR Blackpool, the kite-flying Paddington to Cardiff and now Liverpool to London.  The Pendolini will remain with the new West Coast Franchise under DfT rules.

 

At least the Gricerati will be happy if it all comes to pass.

Edited June 12, 2019 by wombatofludham

[DavidB-AU]

GNWR will only need (I think) 5 sets including a spare. An hourly Liverpool service should need about 8 or 9.  If Cardiff happened and was hourly that's still only another 7 or 8 sets. Take out the 12 coaches and 3 DVTs going to TFW Rail and that still leaves around 6 full sets (plus 3 sets without DVTs but could possibly put 91s on both ends) for somebody else to do something.

 

Cheers

David

Edited June 12, 2019 by DavidB-AU

[Zomboid]

One tph to Liverpool always seemed like it was a bit of a second rate service compared to the 3 that Manchester and Birmingham get. So it'd be good in that context, so long as the interval isn't 3/57 minutes.

[jim.snowdon]

Always assuming that there are the train paths available.

 

Jim

[4630]

10 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Always assuming that there are the train paths available.

 

Jim

 

And capacity at Euston, especially as the rebuilding work in connection with HS2 starts to ramp up.  

[DY444]

7 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Oh the Irony.  Thanks to the botched Railtrack upgrade of the WCML meaning that the Virgin consortium's financial plans based on 140mph operation were blown out of the water, they have benefitted for the lifetime of their franchise from "Moderation of Competition" meaning open access competition like that seem on the ECML has been effectively stopped, or, for example with the short lived Wrexham and Shropshire service, was prohibited from making any pickups at Wolverhampton.  Whilst there has been some competition from London Midland (now LNWR), it's not been on a like for like basis and in the case of Birmingham, was only perpetuating the situation that existed before Privatisation.

 

Now, as the Government has stripped the consortium of the right to bid for the next franchise, suddenly all bets are off and Virgin now want to have open access.

 

This will be interesting.

 

Bashing Virgin for its contractual terms seems to be a popular pastime.  Virgin WC entered into a contract with Railtrack.  Railtrack breached that contract.  Virgin WC did what every company would do in that situation - ie holding all the legal cards it secured the best alternative deal that it could to compensate for the breach of contract.  The Government was under no obligation to negotiate - it could have had its day in court instead.  Clearly the legal opinions it undoubtedly sought indicated that a revised contract would be the lesser of two evils.  The resultant revised contract that Virgin WC has operated under since is thus as a result of the failings of the infrastructure provider not some con trick by Virgin WC.  The Government have perpetuated the Moderation of Competition situation by extending the Virgin WC contract with a series of Direct Awards.  Why have they done this?  Because they failed to operate the 2012 franchise bid according to their own rules and were found out.  That is not the fault of Virgin WC neither is the Government decision to extend the franchise and hence its terms through a series of DAs.

Edited June 12, 2019 by DY444

[Pete the Elaner]

Interesting choice of stops too:

 

Liverpool Lime St

Liverpool South Parkway

Lichfield Trent Valley

Tamworth

London Euston.

 

No Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Rugby or Milton Keynes, which would surely all be busier stops than Lichfield or Tamworth, although both of these seem to have been starved of their InterCity services in recent times.

[62613]

6 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Interesting choice of stops too:

 

Liverpool Lime St

Liverpool South Parkway

Lichfield Trent Valley

Tamworth

London Euston.

 

No Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Rugby or Milton Keynes, which would surely all be busier stops than Lichfield or Tamworth, although both of these seem to have been starved of their InterCity services in recent times.

Runcorn, Crewe and MK would be barred to an open access service under moderation of competition rules, surely? It looks like direct competition with the new franchisee between Liverpool and Euston only, and with LNW on the two stops in the Trent Valley. The LNW Saturday train I took to London last summer was almost full and standing after Tamworth. As the man said, where is the space in the timetable?

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by 62613

[jim.snowdon]

Remember, the object of an open access operator is to cherry pick the high value revenue, not to provide a general service for all. That is the province of the franchise operator, who has to provide a service as specified by the DfT.

 

Jim

[caradoc]

An interesting proposal, although I would have thought Nuneaton might be a better calling point on the Trent Valley ?

 

I actually have some sympathy with the franchised operator (whoever they are) being unhappy with direct open access competition; In the case of Birmingham for example, Virgin provide 3 trains an hour from early morning until evening, and already compete in a fashion with LNW, as mentioned by 62613, and certainly with Chiltern; It is understandable that they would not welcome an open access operator creaming off even more traffic with a very limited (in comparison) service.

[Phatbob]

So, after nearly a quarter of a century of enjoying a monopoly and doing everything humanly possible to kill off all competition, Virgin wants to run an open access service on the WCML.
Will the headboard read "The Sour Grapes Express" I wonder?
I am overwhelmed by a tsunami of irony.

[woodenhead]

What do people expect, in a capitalist market you don't want competition so you use all the legal tools available to deny the competition entry to your market.

 

When you become the competition, you do everything to be in the market.

 

It's not irony, it's business.

 

They have cannily picked a route they can exploit with stock available off the shelf, I'd hope stage 2 is to offer competition in the Cross Country market with some bi-mode trains.

 

Manchester - London is well served with trains every 20 minutes and the route out of Manchester is already congested, Glasgow is probably low profit and there is competition with TPE and it's new trains.

[DY444]

40 minutes ago, Phatbob said:

So, after nearly a quarter of a century of enjoying a monopoly and doing everything humanly possible to kill off all competition, Virgin wants to run an open access service on the WCML.
Will the headboard read "The Sour Grapes Express" I wonder?
I am overwhelmed by a tsunami of irony.

 

Virgin were handed an open goal by the incompetence of Railtrack and Government.  Had Railtrack honoured the contract it freely entered into or alternatively had the nous to understand what it was proposing was just plain undeliverable, and, had the Government followed its own franchise bid evaluation rules then Virgin's contract would not have been as favourable or as enduring.  Blaming Virgin for getting a good deal when faced with weapons grade incompetence on the other side of the table makes no sense at all.

 

PS.  I'd also suggest it might be wise to see what sort of fist the new WCML incumbent makes of things before pouring too much opprobrium onto Virgin.  SWR have, in a fairly short time, managed to turn the south western service into a regular shambles and there are many who think that XC is far worse than it was under the previous franchisee.  

Edited June 12, 2019 by DY444

[Phatbob]

19 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

Virgin were handed an open goal by the incompetence of Railtrack and Government.  Had Railtrack honoured the contract it freely entered into or alternatively had the nous to understand what it was proposing was just plain undeliverable, and, had the Government followed its own franchise bid evaluation rules then Virgin's contract would not have been as favourable or as enduring.  Blaming Virgin for getting a good deal when faced with weapons grade incompetence on the other side of the table makes no sense at all.

 

PS.  I'd also suggest it might be wise to see what sort of fist the new WCML incumbent makes of things before pouring too much opprobrium onto Virgin.  SWR have, in a fairly short time, managed to turn the south western service into a regular shambles and there are many who think that XC is far worse than it was under the previous franchisee.  

Just because a new Franchisee is abysmal doesn't mean that that the old franchisee was brilliant.  It just illustrates that they were not as cr@p.
Having had to put up with VTs monopoly of intercity services in my part of the world, I'm not sad to see them go.  In fairness, pretty much all the VT staff I've had to deal with over the last twenty-odd years have been at least good, if not superb.  Recruitment and training is something they have got very right.  Pretty much every other aspect of their operations (rolling stock Specification, service patterns, fares etc.) has left me underwhelmed.  So much so that I'm using the M6 more often for journeys South now than I ever did under BR's auspices.
As for XC, I actively avoid using them.  Even worse under Ariva than under VT without a doubt.  But that doesn't mean that XC under VT's auspices was any paragon of virtue.   Remember "Operation Princess" and how well that went?  Or the initial response of the traveling public to a 4 car Voyager replacing 6 to 8 MkIIs?

I gather that MTR are favourites to get the new WCML franchise.  They have a proven record for operating Metro services, but can they cope with Intercity, which is a different ball-game?  That remains to be seen.  No doubt DafT will be unconcerned with any deterioration in comfort and service, given what's happening on the ECML and GWML, so long as the money keeps rolling in.  So I would not be surprised to see these decline further.  I will not, however, start getting nostalgic for the days of VT (in much the same way that I'm not getting nostalgic for "the good old days of Pacers" ).

I may well use the new VT service from LPY to EUS and back if it does come to pass, but only because the MKIVs are more comfortable than Bendyleanos and don't tilt and make me sea-sick.  Not because good old Sir Richard has anything to do with them.

[woodenhead]

Other than popping up when a new train comes on stream I don't think beardy bloke has much to do with anything in the Virgin empire these days.

 

VT aren't a bad company, not sure what a 'good' company would look like when it's simply a means to get from A to B and back to A but there is nothing intrinsically bad about VT, I preferred them to Arriva on XC but I do agree the Voyager programme had something wrong in it's figures, the units are much more passenger friendly with EMT.

[Pete the Elaner]

50 minutes ago, Phatbob said:

JI may well use the new VT service from LPY to EUS and back if it does come to pass, but only because the MKIVs are more comfortable than Bendyleanos and don't tilt and make me sea-sick.  Not because good old Sir Richard has anything to do with them.

I always found Mk4's ride rather harsh & the Pendos ok.

Motion sickness is individual & something from which I have never suffered.

[Mike Storey]

1 hour ago, Phatbob said:

I gather that MTR are favourites to get the new WCML franchise.  They have a proven record for operating Metro services, but can they cope with Intercity, which is a different ball-game?  

 

 

True, except that their bid is joint with Renfe Operada (as well as a Chinese rail company), who most definitely have enormous experience in operating medium and long distance conventional and high speed trains.

 

[Mike Storey]

I wonder if this proposal includes Stagecoach again? The article is not entirely clear.

 

[woodenhead]

Its a partnership of Virgin Group, Stagecoach, SNCF and Alstom, apparently to show the ORR how it can should be done

 

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/uk/single-view/view/virgin-trains-open-access-service-to-show-the-rest-of-the-industry-how-it-can-be-done.html

 

So can we expect trains to be cancelled that aren't full enough, tempting emails encouraging you to swap your ticket to busier services etc.

Edited June 12, 2019 by woodenhead

[Mark Saunders]

Will this be the original model of privatisation and Cherry Pick the services he wanted to run!

[wombatofludham]

10 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Bashing Virgin for its contractual terms seems to be a popular pastime.  Virgin WC entered into a contract with Railtrack.  Railtrack breached that contract.  Virgin WC did what every company would do in that situation - ie holding all the legal cards it secured the best alternative deal that it could to compensate for the breach of contract.  The Government was under no obligation to negotiate - it could have had its day in court instead.  Clearly the legal opinions it undoubtedly sought indicated that a revised contract would be the lesser of two evils.  The resultant revised contract that Virgin WC has operated under since is thus as a result of the failings of the infrastructure provider not some con trick by Virgin WC.  The Government have perpetuated the Moderation of Competition situation by extending the Virgin WC contract with a series of Direct Awards.  Why have they done this?  Because they failed to operate the 2012 franchise bid according to their own rules and were found out.  That is not the fault of Virgin WC neither is the Government decision to extend the franchise and hence its terms through a series of DAs.

You misunderstood what I wrote.  I put the blame for the need for moderated competition on Railtrack, and said that Virgin had benefitted from moderation of competition but now the Government have effectively banned them from bidding for the next franchise as part of a consortium which had decided, for reasons they consider valid (and I'm not passing comment on the pensions risk transfer issues) to submit a non-compliant bid, suddenly they are keen to take full advantage of the removal of the protection from competition they benefitted from due to factors beyond their control, to introduce an open access service.

I actually like Virgin, in my limited number of journeys with them I found them very good, I like the Pendolini and the Voyagers, the staff seem to be enthused and proud of the company and by shopping around I got some exceptional fare deals.  Despite the lack of delivery on the 140mph operation, they have achieved quite a lot of what they set out to achieve.  The fact the London to Birmingham Pendolino service is more frequent than some local commuter routes is astonishing to someone who can just remember the hourly all day service of the 1960s.  I think it's a travesty that they are being excluded on the basis of not wanting to take the unquantified risk of staff pensions when we all know that when whoever gets the gig at the end of the month finally finds out what they have let themselves in for they will probably be wanting to have a meeting with the DfT pretty pronto.

 

However, it doesn't remove the fact that they have been relatively insulated from competition for the lifetime of their franchise but now seem keen to become champions of competition, which to my mind is somewhat ironic.  But then business has never been afraid to demonstrate a butterfly mind to life.