Ffarquhar - North Western Region of British Railways

[Tom F]

Just to add though, I have seen slate loaded in open wooden wagons.

[PatB]

2 minutes ago, Hawin Dooiey said:

going off what was illustrated on book 18. I’ve looked but unfortunately I’ve found no examples of shaped stone being transported.

I forget which book it was (maybe 26), but there is an incident where Percy ends up balanced on some wagons loaded with stone blocks. IIRC it may have been in connection with some ongoing harbour works. From unreliable memory, the wagons were wooden, low sided vehicles, maybe 3-plank.

[Tom F]

3 minutes ago, PatB said:

I forget which book it was (maybe 26), but there is an incident where Percy ends up balanced on some wagons loaded with stone blocks. IIRC it may have been in connection with some ongoing harbour works. From unreliable memory, the wagons were wooden, low sided vehicles, maybe 3-plank.

Yes, that book 16. They are the quarry wagons which I’d intended to use for between the quarry and Ffarquhar. 
 

In the Reverend’s books the shaped stone wagons Had always been the larger 13T-16T type.

 

I’m now unsure what would be correct.

[jwealleans]

Portland stone blocks on the LSWR were carried on 1 plank wagons.

[Tom F]

1 minute ago, jwealleans said:

Portland stone blocks on the LSWR were carried on 1 plank wagons.

Morning JW

 

So could you not imagine shaped stone (for house building) being sent out in planked wagons?

Edited July 30, 2020 by Hawin Dooiey

[jwealleans]

These were rough cut (and very large) blocks.   I'm no expert here, but my instinct would be that stone would be transported first and then shaped as close to site as possible to avoid damaging worked pieces.  It's also very heavy, so craning it into even a medium goods would be more awkward than a 1 or 3 plank and also wasteful of the wagon's capacity.   I'd go for very low sided wagons.

 

There's a thread on this traffic here.

 

 

[Tom F]

15 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

These were rough cut (and very large) blocks.   I'm no expert here, but my instinct would be that stone would be transported first and then shaped as close to site as possible to avoid damaging worked pieces.  It's also very heavy, so craning it into even a medium goods would be more awkward than a 1 or 3 plank and also wasteful of the wagon's capacity.   I'd go for very low sided wagons.

 

There's a thread on this traffic here.

 

 

 

Thanks Jonathan

I'll probably go for standard 1 or 3 planks. I've always said I'd be guided by real railway practice rather than the illustrations.

 

Now I'm on the laptop, here is the stone wagons depicted on the tramway which carry rough stone from Anopha Quarry.

 

 

 

later being depicted more like 5 planks, although could be still 3 plank type.

 

We then see example of larger mineral type wagons in the stone cutters yard, hence I'd originally considered  larger type wagons for the shaped stone. (The stone is depicted as being shaped at Ffarquhar, which is seen in the background in this first image:

 

'Empty shaped stone wagon of higher capacity.

 

However it now seems this idea of larger wagons is unprototypical so I'm going to have to have a rethink.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Hawin Dooiey

[jwealleans]

If you want to be very critical there's a lot wrong with that - end door stripes where there's no end door, the bottom picture looks like planked corner plates on a steel 16T body - I'd maybe use the colours and forget the rest.

[Tom F]

1 minute ago, jwealleans said:

If you want to be very critical there's a lot wrong with that - end door stripes where there's no end door, the bottom picture looks like planked corner plates on a steel 16T body - I'd maybe use the colours and forget the rest.

 

I agree, I'd always presumed they were 13T planked wagons with a touch of impressionism!

So, realistically... not that high a sided wagon and stick to 3 plank?

[LNER4479]

10 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

If you want to be very critical there's a lot wrong with that - end door stripes where there's no end door, the bottom picture looks like planked corner plates on a steel 16T body - I'd maybe use the colours and forget the rest.

The cricket ball also doesn't have a seam on it ...

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Nice signals!

 

Yes, how did all that Western Region equipment end up in the North Western Region?

[Compound2632]

20 hours ago, Hawin Dooiey said:

 There will also be smaller, 3-5 plank wagons, branded FQC which will be work strictly between the Anopha Quarry and Ffarquhar stone yard.

 

That got me reaching for my Combined Volume. It's three-plank wagons in Percy's Predicament, but unbranded.

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, Hawin Dooiey said:

going off what was illustrated on book 18. I’ve looked but unfortunately I’ve found no examples of shaped stone being transported.

 

Having had a quick scan it is undeniable that the mineral wagons Stepney takes up the branch go into the Quarry exchange sidings.

 

All other illustrations seems to show 3 or 5 Planks which is what I would expect to be used. This is particularly visible in book 16.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Aire Head

[Aire Head]

The wagon that the stone is carried in is going to be influenced by the grade of stone being carried.

 

I'd expect stone coming from the quarry to the cutting sheds to be more or less as it was blasted from the rock face.

 

Stone blocks I would expect to be in 1 or 3 plank wagons. Hardcore more likely in 5 Planks with a healthy mixture of RCH designs and ex company merchandise stock.

[Compound2632]

@Aire Head - close observation of contemporary images plus a good knowledge of contemporary working practices are fundamental to achieving a realistic model!

[Aire Head]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

@Aire Head - close observation of contemporary images plus a good knowledge of contemporary working practices are fundamental to achieving a realistic model!

 

I work in the building trade as well so it's easy to see the difference in size of a ton of dressed stone and a ton of hardcore!

[PatB]

I wonder if it's conceivable that BR sand tipplers might find their way onto such traffic. They tick some of the boxes, being robust and lowish sided, but I suspect the lack of doors or dropsides might make unloading more awkward than it should be. 

[Tom F]

According to Awdry, the stone from Ffarquhar was used predominately for building, i.e shaped stone for building bricks.

[Aire Head]

9 minutes ago, PatB said:

I wonder if it's conceivable that BR sand tipplers might find their way onto such traffic. They tick some of the boxes, being robust and lowish sided, but I suspect the lack of doors or dropsides might make unloading more awkward than it should be. 

 

I think that's unlikely in the 1950s, I'd expect mainly unfitted POs and ex Merchandise stock

 

Just now, Hawin Dooiey said:

According to Awdry, the stone from Ffarquhar was used predominately for building, i.e shaped stone for building bricks.

 

Your quarry will always produce hardcore and you would want to seek it to maximise your profit. Also you need the hardcore for building aswell!

[Tom F]

Just now, Aire Head said:

Your quarry will always produce hardcore and you would want to seek it to maximise your profit. Also you need the hardcore for building aswell!

Cheers @Aire Head
I really appreciate you input. So the large 13T's could be used possibly for hardcore? Just seeing if I can make the illustrations work.

Presume Hardcore wouldn't need shaping? Nice shunting manoeuvres! 

[Aire Head]

7 minutes ago, Hawin Dooiey said:

Cheers @Aire Head
I really appreciate you input. So the large 13T's could be used possibly for hardcore? Just seeing if I can make the illustrations work.

Presume Hardcore wouldn't need shaping? Nice shunting manoeuvres! 

 

Thank you it's my pleasure.

 

I'd say you would be able to get away with some Steel 13T wagons. Probably unfitted  one as BR would be keen to keep the fitted ones available for merchandise use. A good mix of old 5 and 3 planks aswell.

 

As for shunting move certainly could be fun. Especially if the bloke in charge at the quarry doesn't care about the need for the wagons loaded dressed stone and hardcore to be separated prior to arriving at the cutting sheds and just wants the loaded wagons out of the way.

[Tom F]

4 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Thank you it's my pleasure.

 

I'd say you would be able to get away with some Steel 13T wagons. Probably unfitted  one as BR would be keen to keep the fitted ones available for merchandise use. A good mix of old 5 and 3 planks aswell.

 

As for shunting move certainly could be fun. Especially if the bloke in charge at the quarry doesn't care about the need for the wagons loaded dressed stone and hardcore to be separated prior to arriving at the cutting sheds and just wants the loaded wagons out of the way.

I'm presuming the hardcore would come out of the quarry and then be marshalled straight into a train at Ffarquhar and wouldn't need to be touched by the cutting shed.

[Aire Head]

12 minutes ago, Hawin Dooiey said:

I'm presuming the hardcore would come out of the quarry and then be marshalled straight into a train at Ffarquhar and wouldn't need to be touched by the cutting shed.

 

Shouldn't need to be handled by them at all although the cutting shed it self will produce a degree of waste and it's possible that some stone taken there is crushed onsite aswell.

 

It's quite likely that the larger stone would be loaded at a different siding in the quarry than the hardcore would be but that still doesn't stop them appearing in the same train.

[Tom F]

Here is what Awdry has to say about the stone on the branch.

 

Quote

It was John Croarie's father, Jabez, principal landowner in Ffarquhar who, feeling the pinch after World War I, floated the Ffarquhar Quarry Company to mine the stone under his land on Anopha Fell (E4) and in furtherance of this, persuaded the NWR to extend from Elsbridge to Ffarquhar. Since then the village has increased in population from 350 (1921) to 2405 (1981). The Quarry Co. employs some 400 people either underground or at the cutting and curing sheds.

 

Quote

'The stonecutting and curing sheds used to be up at Anopha; but it was soon found more convenient to have them at the station. We needed some cottages near the station too, so we re-aligned the quarry extension to run as it does today - between the cottages and the engine shed (SBE/29;BLE/9)- crossing Ulfstead Road into The Lane (BLE/49;TRAM/35,37,39,43).

 

Quote

Passing through the stoneyard to which raw stone is brought to be cut and cured (BLE/51,53) the line leaves by an ungated crossing over the Ulfstead Road,

 

Ffarquhar Stone has found a ready market both in Sodor and elsewhere. It provides valuable traffic for the branch. When first quarried it is easily worked, but after a curing period above ground it becomes very hard and impervious to weathering and air pollution. It is specified widely for municipal and other public buildings, also for bridge and harbour work.

 

Latterly, to cope with increasing production, the Quarry Co. have bought a Drewry diesel named Mavis (TRAM/30-57), which not only shunts the quarry sidings, but also from time to time ventures down to Ffarquhar Station.

Apart from the platform and shelter at the quarry, mainly used by workmen, there are no other fixed stopping points, but at intervals along the line where there are farms and cottages Toby stops on request. The service provided is four trains a day each way. Freight trains are run as required.

 

[Worsdell forever]

15 hours ago, Hawin Dooiey said:

This evening I'm researching North Western Region Brake Vans.

 

'Spitefull Brake Van' from Book 15 'Twin Engines' is a Toad B. A donor vehicle is on its way.

 

Looking at the length and round buffer stocks I'd say that was an NER V4.

 

If it speaks in a high pitched voice it's definitely from Shildon.