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15 hours ago, 9793 said:

 

I won't be depicting the docks, just the lines that go to them really, and a line for the empties.

 

Cranky who?....... ;)

How true

I am mortified to discover that Cranky -the crane at Brendam Docks ( so not Tidmouth in any case)-  was "the first non-Awdry character introduced to the TV series who was not Railway Series-related" so forget all my comments about what sort of dockside cranes Awdry might have been familiar with. I thought the character had appeared in one of the earlier TV programmes that were fairly closely based on Awdry's original stories.

I gather that some of the maritime models made for "Tugs", the far less successful series made by two of the Thomas and Friends directors using the same live action model techniques, were sold to Britt Allcroft and used as background models in later series of Thomas but I think "Cranky" was specially made for the later Thomas series.

 

Was an actual port depicted in any of Wilbert Awdry's stories or were they always "off-stage"?

 

Edited by Pacific231G

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Some wagons get shunted off the end of a breakwater/harbour in one story, don't they?

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3 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Was an actual port depicted in any of Wilbert Awdry's stories or were they always "off-stage"

 

 

Tidmouth predominately! (Great examples in Book 6, 27 and 37).

Brendam in Book 21

Kirk Ronan in Book 20

 

Possibly more, but I can't think off hand!

 

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27 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Some wagons get shunted off the end of a breakwater/harbour in one story, don't they?

Hi Kevin,

 

Two similar incidents occur at the quayside breakwater, in book 32, Toby Trucks and Trouble, Percy rough shunts some trucks breaks a coupling and some trucks run away and sink Bulstrode Barge, previously however, in book 12, Eight Famous Engines, Percy runs away and goes through the buffers and into the sea , some trucks almost follow him into the sea.

In the second incident Percy was recovered by floating cranes at high tide and not by the use of Cranky Crane.

 

Gibbo.

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Ah, I must have been remembering Percy falling in. The later books are terra incognito as far as I'm concerned.

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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

If you know where to look, you can get a good view of some preserved ones from the DLR, a little way north of Canary Wharf.

There are quite a few derigged and welded up around Docklands- there are a lot around Excel-  but are there some preserved in working order?

The last time I was down there, in 2015,   - the Stothert and Pitt cranes on Southampton's Eastern Docks (the very long Quayside) all seemed to be intact, rigged and newly painted but I don't know if they're still used at all.

I'm afraid that when I took this I was more interested in the contrast between the Waverly and the cruise ship Azure I'd just driven some friends to join.

Azure_&_Waverley_Sept_2015_014.jpg.b0461262c4debfbaf0cf05634b5eb95c.jpg

Just to be clear what we're talking about (at the risk of going OT)

This is one of the Stothert and Pitt level luffing cranes preserved alongside the Bristol M Shed museum

1930912483_Stothert__Pitt_dockside_crane_with_Toplis_luffing_gear.jpg.1e92541abc87db0f8e0e37db64241497.jpg

They use Toplis which is a "passive" level luffing system in which the rigging of the hoist pulls in or pays out just enough cable to compensate for the raising and lowering of the jib (known as luffing) so that the hook stayes level. The hoist cable runs up from the hoisting drum in the machine room to a tower set at an appropriate height above pivot point of the jib then out to a pulley at the end of the jib, back to the tower and round another pulley then back to a second pulley at the jib end and down to the hook. It's so simple that it's hard to believe that Sinbad's bosun didn't know about it but so mathematically complex that I've yet to see a satisfactory explanation of it. Reading his patent (GB191222704A) I think Claude Toplis, who was Stothert and Pitt's chief engineeer, must have arrived at the corect relative relationships by trial and error.  The hook doesn't remain absolutely level but very close to it over the normal range of jib positions.   

 

 

Edited by Pacific231G
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4 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 The Toplis level luffing arrangement (patented in 1912 by Claude Toplis an engineer with Stothert and Pitt) meant that the hook stayed level as the jib was raised and lowered. That required very little effort so, unlike most luffing cranes where the jib was raised and lowered by cables, the counterweighted jib  was normally operated by a crank. That enabled them to handle cargo far more quickly and safely.

 


Fingers crossed a kit of the cranes used at Bristol docks may appear soon (not confirmed, but I have heard a rumour and have my fingers and toes crossed!)

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11 hours ago, Corbs said:


Fingers crossed a kit of the cranes used at Bristol docks may appear soon (not confirmed, but I have heard a rumour and have my fingers and toes crossed!)

That will be good though as dockside cranes go those are fairly large. There were smaller such cranes at smaller ports and for our purposes, certainly in OO and H0 we probably, as with ships, need smaller ones that can still be authentic and to scale. I have seen an etched brass fret for a typical level luffing crane but that was N scale. I'm afraid that even as a youngster I knew that the Airfix "dockside crane" I'd just built simply wasn't typical.

I think for the operational scope of docks a couple of tracks from and to which wagons are sent may make more sense than actually modelling the port itself. Dockside cranes tend to be rather dominant features as this one built by Gerard Voisin for his excellent model of part of Dieppe's former ferry port demonstrates.

Dieppe_Mme_Gerard_Voisin_P1090880.JPG.40a0d4033a6651c2a0496d3f6daa5845.JPG

The buildings berhind, which are models of the actual buildings on the Quai Henri IV,  are five story so pretty substantial but the crane, which is a pretty good representation of the real ones, towers over them. The crane itself uses the other type of "passive" level luffing known as the "horse-head" where the end of the jib remains at a constant height as it is luffed. This does though require a lot more ironmongery than the Toplis system.

180px-Crane_double-lever-jib-type_sideview_animated.gif.5e56346c7644aae382c2e49adb61463f.gif

 

When I was young, seeing these rather than the familar Stothert & Pitt type dockside cranes was one of the things, along with more than two or three flavours of ice-cream,  that said you were abroad

 

Edited by Pacific231G
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Regarding Sinbad's Bosun: I'm sure Ive seen sailing ships with the "unloading boom" (don't know the proper term!) rigged-up so that, rather than being anchored to a fixed point at its ship-board end, it is suspended from part-way up a mast, somewhere near its mid-point, rather like the yard-arm of a lateen sail, so that the load-height can easily be controlled by pulling the rear end down, or letting it move upwards. Easier to draw than describe in words!

Edited by Nearholmer

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11 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Regarding Sinbad's Bosun: I'm sure Ive seen sailing ships with the "unloading boom" (don't know the proper term!) rigged-up so that, rather than being anchored to a fixed point at its ship-board end, it is suspended from part-way up a mast, somewhere near its mid-point, rather like the yard-arm of a lateen sail, so that the load-height can easily be controlled by pulling the rear end down, or letting it move upwards. Easier to draw than describe in words!

I think the booms used for cargo handling on sailing ships were often also used for the sails. That was certainly the case with Thames sailing barges where the sprit- the diagonal boom or spar-  that held up the top corner or peak of the mainsail was also used as a cargo boom. That sounds a  bit like the rig you're describing though I think the sprits on Thames barges were attached but not fixed to the mast fairly close to the end. There is a good picture of a model in the National Maritime Museum collection here

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/257348.html

 

The last of these didn't leave commercial service until around 1970 - it was a long drive for a lorry from Essex to Kent before the Dartford tunnel was built- so they were possibly the last fully commercial cargo sailing vessels around Britain.

 

Funnily enough the place where I've most often seen counterweighted booms is in TV studios where they've long been used to carry microphones  and more recently lightweight cameras. The person who handles them is called a boom operator and it's a skilled job to keep the microphone just out of frame but as close as possible to the actor/performer's mouth.

 

I think we've rather hi-jacked 9793's topic so I'll stop here

Edited by Pacific231G
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Good idea.  Create a thread for crane's and continuing it there makes the best sense.

 

Also Cranky is a TV series thing, unrelated to the 'truth' of the source material.  Lots of those mongrels about.

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4 hours ago, Knuckles said:

Also Cranky is a TV series thing, unrelated to the 'truth' of the source material.  Lots of those mongrels about.

 

Maybe so but my younger son was a fan at the age of 3 - went to bed with his wooden Cranky. He's moved on since.

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I been a fan since age 1!  Still remember seeing TV series in '86.  I like the older TV series, but after the early seasons they went off the rails majorly.

 

The RS/RWS and TVS are completely different entities but especially now.  Almost no link at all.

Edited by Knuckles

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I had a good chat with @BritishGypsum4 earlier. We were discussing my WTT/ Layout sequence and the variety of stock I can portray. Our attention turned to BR locos. Although the NWR looked on the 'R' being Railway....it was technically the sixth region of British Railways, and BR had running rights onto Sodor. To quote Awdry himself in Book 12 'The Eight Famous Engines' referencing trains working onto the NWR.

 

'Lots of people travelled to the big station at the end of the line. Engines from the 'Other Railway' sometimes pulled their trains. These engines stay the night, and go home next day'

 

Hence follows a heated debate between Gordon, Duck and a Patriot from the LMR.

GordonGoesForeign.png.1bd7a912953e49c696905ff8aae02383.png

 

This is referencing passenger trains, but it's fair to say this ruling would also cover goods trains. It's fair to say engines from Barrow (4Fs, 8Fs etc) would possibly work in on a fairly regular basis. This should prove an interesting juxtaposition when one compares the BR fleet's black liveries with the colourful appearances of the NWR fleet.

Edited by 9793
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13 minutes ago, 9793 said:

I had a good chat with @BritishGypsum4 earlier. We were discussing my WTT/ Layout sequence and the variety of stock I can portray. Our attention turned to BR locos. Although the NWR looked on the 'R' being Railway....it was technically the sixth region of British Railways, and BR had running rights onto Sodor. To quote Awdry himself in Book 12 'The Eight Famous Engines' referencing trains working onto the NWR.

 

'Lots of people travelled to the big station at the end of the line. Engines from the 'Other Railway' sometimes pulled their trains. These engines stay the night, and go home next day'

 

Hence follows a heated debate between Gordon, Duck and a Patriot from the LMR.

GordonGoesForeign.png.1bd7a912953e49c696905ff8aae02383.png

 

This is referencing passenger trains, but it's fair to say this ruling would also cover goods trains. It's fair to say engines from Barrow (4Fs, 8Fs etc) would possibly work in on a fairly regular basis. This should prove an interesting juxtaposition when one compares the BR fleet's black liveries with the colourful appearances of the NWR fleet.

Hi Tom,

 

Surely with such a small chimney and a larger diameter smoke box than Gordon the locomotive from the Other Railway is a parallel boilered Scot ?

 

Gibbo.

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15 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Tom,

 

Surely with such a small chimney and a larger diameter smoke box than Gordon the locomotive from the Other Railway is a parallel boilered Scot ?

 

Gibbo.

 

It's a fair point.

 

However, I believe it's a Patriot for a couple of reasons. The book was published in 1957, and at this point I believe the chronology had caught up with the publication dates and the last Scot was rebuilt in 1955 (or so I believe). Also, during this period, wouldn't the Scot's have all be on the WCML..... granted if the NWR exists, then train diagraming may have been different.

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6 minutes ago, 9793 said:

 

It's a fair point.

 

However, I believe it's a Patriot for a couple of reasons. The book was published in 1957, and at this point I believe the chronology had caught up with the publication dates and the last Scot was rebuilt in 1955 (or so I believe). Also, during this period, wouldn't the Scot's have all be on the WCML..... granted if the NWR exists, then train diagraming may have been different.

Hi Tom,

 

I can't believe I'm writing this but anyway.

 

The piano front appears rounded and also the buffer beam cut out lines up with the centre line of the buffers as with the Scots. The definitive proof would be the tender but it is out of view.

 

Your point regarding diagramming of motive power is a good one for if Gordon was required power for a train then handing over to a Scot seems more reasonable than to a Patriot.

 

Do I win a prize for being ridiculously pedantic with the above ?

 

Gibbo.

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No, not at all.  This is what we do; research the RWS to get the likely 'truth'on everything.  Fair points.

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All very fair observations - but just found this image;

latest?cb=20190122212341

 

Taken from "Rev W. Awdry's FAMOUS ENGINES Colouring & Activity Book", written by Wilbert himself - with a far more accurate Patriot looking loco.

 

If the Reverend has jotted him down as a Patriot here, it's safe to say this was intended in the original book.

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When Gordon does work through to London, it's St Pancras. That would suggest that the LMR 4-6-0 would have come on at Leeds (with the reversal) so is most probably a Holbeck engine. Does that help?

 

... though that does rather suggest that Gordon ought to have come off the train at Leeds? Things must have been bad at Holbeck that day...

 

EDIT - but then again, doesn't the LMR engine go on about London being Euston? The plot thickens.

 

Further edit: Interesting, though, that the colouring book artist has drawn a Patriot rather than just copying the illustration.

Edited by Compound2632
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6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:



EDIT - but then again, doesn't the LMR engine go on about London being Euston? The plot thickens.

 
The NWR has two named express trains - "The Wild Nor' Wester" which runs through to St.Pancras and "The Sudrian" which runs through to Euston or Plymouth on alternate days - the LMR engine would have come up on "The Sudrian" I'd imagine, whereas Gordon's run to London would be on "The Wild Nor' Wester"

Edited by ExplosiveCookie
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That's complicated - I thought Gordon was being substituted for the LMR engine, so the diagram must have been down with The Sudrian then up with The Wild NW, and presumably vice-versa on alternate days.

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Gordon's run to London and the LMR locos visit are at least a week apart - as the LMR loco leaves next day, Gordon and Duck argue for a while and finally Gordon tries multiple times to go further than Barrow. So LMR up and back down on "The Sudrian" and then Gordon a week or so later takes Wild NW to Barrow, loco not ready so takes it all way to London St. Pancras.

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1 hour ago, ExplosiveCookie said:

All very fair observations - but just found this image;

latest?cb=20190122212341

 

Taken from "Rev W. Awdry's FAMOUS ENGINES Colouring & Activity Book", written by Wilbert himself - with a far more accurate Patriot looking loco.

 

If the Reverend has jotted him down as a Patriot here, it's safe to say this was intended in the original book.

I had that very same book.

 

Argument settled, its a Patriot.

 

Gibbo.

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35 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

When Gordon does work through to London, it's St Pancras. That would suggest that the LMR 4-6-0 would have come on at Leeds (with the reversal) so is most probably a Holbeck engine. Does that help?

 

... though that does rather suggest that Gordon ought to have come off the train at Leeds? Things must have been bad at Holbeck that day...

 

EDIT - but then again, doesn't the LMR engine go on about London being Euston? The plot thickens.

 

Further edit: Interesting, though, that the colouring book artist has drawn a Patriot rather than just copying the illustration.

Hi Compound,

 

Leeds may be bye-passed to the south west using the chord that allows non stop to London all the way from Barrow via Carnfoth and Settle Junction.

 

MR%20System%20Map.jpg

 

Gibbo.

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