Ffarquhar - North Western Region of British Railways

[Gibbo675]

29 minutes ago, Tom F said:

I'm currently have a little look into Crane's since having a further look at this illustration from book 25.

 

@Gibbo675 might the person to ask.

 

I'm looking for a fair representation, doesn't need to be 100% accurate...more passable as it trundles through the yard. Would the Hornby Dublo model me acceptable (as opposed to the triang model?). I'm not after a massive project, just a fairly simple re wheeling....at most respray job if need be. If it's a big job, I'll possibly leave it for now.

 

Hi Tom,

 

The crane in the above illustration would seem to me to be a Cowans Sheldon Standard 15 ton crane of the type shewn second image down on the below link:

 

http://www.bdca.org.uk/first.html

 

These cranes had detail differences such as different arrangement of slots in the side of the jib as well as different length jibs. The one shewn has one slot, some had four or five and others none at all. The Cowans Sheldon 15 ton crane was supplied to various railway companies as a pretty much of the shelf product other than minor details specified by the operating companies upon purchase.

 

The one in the illustration has been modified as it has had the lifting and derricking chains replaced with wire ropes which was a common modification although some retained chains into the 1950/60's. The livery of red is unusual as most were in painted in either black or grey but its the Fat Contoller's railway, so red it is !

 

The cranes illustrated on pages 51 and 55 of book 2, Thomas the Tank Engine, are to say the least nondescript. The nearest type that I can think of were the Cowans Sheldon 45 ton cranes of 1926 for the LNER, unusual in that they were bogie mounted. There is a crane of this type at the North Yorkshire Moors Railway. The date of 1926 would tally quite well with the newly delivered James in his black livery and the LNER type cranes.

 

Below linked is a Cowans Sheldon 45 ton crane of 1940 for the LNER and Ministry of Supply that is represented by the Hornby Dublo model. This type of crane is a strengthened and up-rated version of the Cowans Sheldon 36 ton of 1936 also for the LNER although the jib is short by about 20 mm in 4mm scale and the jib runner is of incorrect pattern and is also short. Some of the MoS cranes went to the Civil Engineers Department and were painted grey rather than the black and later red liveries of the Locomotive Department. :

 

 

 

The Triang crane is a poor representation of the what would have been new Cowans Sheldon BR standard 75 Ton cranes, which were red to start with and later painted yellow after conversion to diesel hydraulic from the mid 1970's onwards. They need a major rebuild as my one has had:

 

 

I would suggest that the Hornby Dublo Crane is plenty good enough for your needs as the Fat Controller may well have purchased a couple of repatriated MoS cranes in the mid to late 1940's. The short jibs could well be a modification for operating considerations on the Fat controller's railway.

 

The books to read are from a three volume series by Peter Tatlow called, "Railway breakdown Cranes", they have drawing of all the cranes mentioned and more. The only drawback is price, not cheap to buy all three, you might realise that I have been referencing them for this post !

 

Gibbo.

[Tom F]

Much appreciated @Gibbo675

Regarding the livery in the illustration. The book is from 1970, so could it be an earlier crane in BR livery?

[Gibbo675]

5 minutes ago, Tom F said:

Much appreciated @Gibbo675

Regarding the livery in the illustration. The book is from 1970, so could it be an earlier crane in BR livery?

Hi Tom,

 

Possible but unlikely, the reason I say this is that of the Mk1 type, which is the most like the one in the illustration, the last to go was 1966 and of the Mk2 type the last to go was 1971. Not all of the cranes would have been repainted in the seven to ten years prior to withdrawal and would have likely remained black with only having wasp stripes applied.

 

I haven't seen a picture of one in red but that doesn't mean that there weren't any that carried red. Knowledge of such livery details is compounded by black and white photographs.

 

Gibbo.

[Tom F]

6 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Tom,

 

Possible but unlikely, the reason I say this is that of the Mk1 type, which is the most like the one in the illustration, the last to go was 1966 and of the Mk2 type the last to go was 1971. Not all of the cranes would have been repainted in the seven to ten years prior to withdrawal and would have likely remained black with only having wasp stripes applied.

 

I haven't seen a picture of one in red but that doesn't mean that there weren't any that carried red. Knowledge of such livery details is compounded by black and white photographs.

 

Gibbo.

 

Ah, right! Interesting Peter Edwards went with a correct prototype but perhaps not in the right livery.

 

The crane that Hornby Dublo produced, would that be ok (I can live with the shorter jib) in BR red livery? I always liked the livery, as a child it felt rather modern....granted it was out of date when I was born in 1985!

[Gibbo675]

2 minutes ago, Tom F said:

 

Ah, right! Interesting Peter Edwards went with a correct prototype but perhaps not in the right livery.

 

The crane that Hornby Dublo produced, would that be ok (I can live with the shorter jib) in BR red livery? I always liked the livery, as a child it felt rather modern....granted it was out of date when I was born in 1985!

Hi Tom,

 

My thoughts are that there would have been more than one type crane on the Fat Controller's railway.

 

The small Hornby Cowans Sheldon 10 ton crane would have been used for all sorts of jobs in around various yards and on civil engineering and permanent way activities. The lifting of even narrow gauge locomotives as in the illustration would likely be beyond capacity though.

 

The type that the Hornby Dublo represents is more than feasible for you would need two to lift a locomotive of the size of Gordon and only then after draining the boiler and being able to get alongside close enough for the jibs to be raised to give maximum lift which is at only 20' radius.

The book states:

• 20' 45 tons propped / 14 tons free
• 30' 30 tons propped / 6.5 tons free
• 40' 16 tons propped / 4.5 tons free

The Cowans Sheldon 15 ton and the later 20, 25 and 30 ton cranes would have been used for the branch line recoveries and also some may well have been transferred to civil engineering for bridge girders and the like.

 

The capacity of the cranes utilised has to be matched to the heaviest load likely to have to be recovered. For the Fat Controller's railway that would be Gordon off the road and possibly on its side therefore requiring two 45 ton cranes as a minimum.

 

An idea that I've just had is that Tichy Trians do a kit of an American style crane that you may be able to bash into a more British looking contraption utilising various bits, you can find them on ebay.

 

Gibbo.

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

The crane in the above illustration would seem to me to be a Cowans Sheldon Standard 15 ton crane of the type shewn second image down on the below link:

 

http://www.bdca.org.uk/first.html

 

If this is a Cowans Sheldon 15 to crane, then I would suggest it is closer to the curved-jib type, four of which were supplied to the Midland in 1893:

 

 

NRM DY 603, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

If so, I take this as further evidence for Midland influence on Sodor - the Midland had considerable ambitions in that part of the world in the 1890s - there was an attempt at absorbing the Furness, plus the take-over of the Belfast & Northern Counties in 1903. 

 

This does beg the question what reference photos or models the artist was using. My interpretation of the picture is that the crane is reaching across the green well wagon from the next line behind - which would just be possible at that jib angle. Is the narrow gauge engine being transferred from one wagon to another? (Possibly because at its final destination, there aren't the facilities for unloading from one type of wagon.)

 

In terms of 4 mm/ft modelling, you'd have to hunt high and low for the D&S kit.

[Gibbo675]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

If this is a Cowans Sheldon 15 to crane, then I would suggest it is closer to the curved-jib type, four of which were supplied to the Midland in 1893:

 

 

NRM DY 603, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

If so, I take this as further evidence for Midland influence on Sodor - the Midland had considerable ambitions in that part of the world in the 1890s - there was an attempt at absorbing the Furness, plus the take-over of the Belfast & Northern Counties in 1903. 

 

This does beg the question what reference photos or models the artist was using. My interpretation of the picture is that the crane is reaching across the green well wagon from the next line behind - which would just be possible at that jib angle. Is the narrow gauge engine being transferred from one wagon to another? (Possibly because at its final destination, there aren't the facilities for unloading from one type of wagon.)

 

In terms of 4 mm/ft modelling, you'd have to hunt high and low for the D&S kit.

Hi Mr Compound,

 

It certainly is a Cowans Sheldon 15 ton crane, the Midland had a total of nine. The one pictured above is a Mk1 type with the curved type of jib was built in 1893 as part of a batch of four costing £1693 each, it was later ceded to the War Department sometime between 1914 and 1918.

 

The other five that were ordered by the Midland were of the Mk2 type and had what is termed a swan neck jib, this is the type in the BDCA link and coincidentally also a Midland crane. There was a batch of four built in 1899 costing £1848 and the last one in 1901 costing £1961.

 

Roofs over the driving position were added later as much to protect the controls rather than the driver, covering with a tarpaulin when stored ready was the norm. The match trucks for these cranes were three specially constructed three planked wagons with a jib rest mounted centrally. In total there were nine Mk1 types and twenty Mk2 types.  

 

Why use a D&S kit when you can scratch build ?

 

Gibbo.

[Compound2632]

Hi Gibbo,

 

Most interesting: some of the information you give here goes beyond that in the articles by Dave Hunt in Midland Record Nos. 2 and 6 - you give prices (which, by the way, are comparable with but a little less than the contemporary price for a Johnson standard 0-6-0 goods engine) and you also seem more positive about the transfer of No. 27 to the War Department. The illustrations to Dave's articles are all from Midland days apart from the one you link to on the BDCA website but there is also a photo in Midland Record No. 17, of No. 25 / 245 / MP36 in BR days as R.S. 1023/15, allocated to Stoke M.P.D., with "enclosed" cab. It's very smartly turned out with LNWR-style lining on the main crane frame and bunker sides and the roundel part of the second BR totem on the bunker. The end of the jib appears to be white, as in the RWS picture.

 

For my part, I wouldn't attempt scratchbuilding as I've got the D&S kit salted away. The match truck will need some scratchbuilding. The Midland Railway Study Centre has published Drg 847 which purports to cover these but the jib support is for earlier 10 ton hand cranes - Dave's articles give drawings for the arrangement actually used.

 

Apologies for this excursion from NWR fiction to MR reality!

[Tom F]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Apologies for this excursion from NWR fiction to MR reality!

 

NWR fiction? I'm not sure what you mean!

 

Regarding Cranes....I think I may pick up a Hornby Dublo model, strip it back and repaint. What is the best substitute wheels?

 

This may be of  some interest.
I drafted up an entry for Gavin (Knuckles) RWS Database entry regarding coaching stock on the NWR, and liveries. My whole idea is making the NWR (in my period North Western Region of British Railways) fit in with the real world BR....which is what Awdry intended. 

 

NWR Passenger Rolling Stock

 

NWR 930s-1970s

 

Prior to nationalisation, the NWR's coaching fleet was made up of ex LNWR/Midland/Furness/LMS.

 

In 1948, the now North Western Region of British Railways began repainting it's stock into the pre war NWR brown livery with yellow stripe (similar to how the Eastern Region was repainting teak stock post nationalisation). From 1949, BR began implementing it's new liveries for coaching stock (crimson for non corridor, carmine and cream for corridor stock). While the NWR was able to retain it's locomotive liveries, an agreement was made that it must conform regarding coaching stock.

 

In 1957, there was a relaxing of the rules on coach liveries. The Western Region was authorised to repaint some of it's stock in the pre war chocolate and cream of the GWR, while the Southern Region began repainting it's stock malachite green.

 

The NWR was given permission to repaint it's stock allocated to the North Western Region, brown once more, as and when coaches went in for overhaul. (See Book 23 'Enterprising Engines' – Super Rescue and the rear coach of 'The Limited' plus D3 'Bear' on his express in the second to last illustration of the book).

 

Therefore in the mid to late 1960s, you could see a real mix of coach liveries on Sodor. From the last vestiges of Crimson, to Maroon, BR Blue /Grey and NWR brown.

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Tom F

[Compound2632]

Dalby's illustrations show carriages a uniformly orangish colour. He was a Leicester man, I've wondered if he simply painted the colour he saw - i.e. his orange represents either faded BR crimson, or, more likely, LNER brown?

[Tom F]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Dalby's illustrations show carriages a uniformly orangish colour. He was a Leicester man, I've wondered if he simply painted the colour he saw - i.e. his orange represents either faded BR crimson, or, more likely, LNER brown?

Dalby was a law unto himself!

 

Awdry adapted as he went along, however by the time he wrote IOS in 1987 he had pretty much confirmed the NWR stock was brown livery, also fitted stock had yellow letter/number branding while unfitted was white apparently.

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Tom F

[Martin S-C]

That milk van has the look of a very early GW O.1 siphon about it. Note the door bracing of the drawing is different to that shown in the photograph and seems to be the diagonal brace depicted in Dalby's illustration.

[Gibbo675]

3 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

That milk van has the look of a very early GW O.1 siphon about it. Note the door bracing of the drawing is different to that shown in the photograph and seems to be the diagonal brace depicted in Dalby's illustration.

Hi Martin,

 

That little ensemble looks as though it might benefit the services of a pair of 15 ton from the previous few posts !

 

Gibbo.

[Nearholmer]

If you look in my thread, or SEM’s I think, you will see us building models inspired by that siphon-esque illustration, using parts laser-cut by Linny.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Martin S-C]

Very true Mr Gibbo. From cranes to crashes. I hadn't spotted the link.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Martin S-C

[john new]

Sodor Rail needed lots of cranes given the number of troublesome trucks and clumsy engines!

[Martin S-C]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

If you look in my thread, or SEM’s I think, you will see us building models inspired by that siphon-esque illustration, using parts laser-cut by Linny.

 

 

I had a quick shuftie but might you be able to give me a page number?

I do apologise to the Sodor parishioners for this crass interruption.

[Tom F]

Happy Sunday folks. I've been busy with weathering commissions, so know NWR stuff to show. However, I have been collecting my favourite first editions from the Railway Series. I have noticed the print quality far surpasses the later reprints, so I thought I'd share what I believe is the finest illustration in the Railway Series.

 

[St Enodoc]

5 minutes ago, Tom F said:

Happy Sunday folks. I've been busy with weathering commissions, so know NWR stuff to show. However, I have been collecting my favourite first editions from the Railway Series. I have noticed the print quality far surpasses the later reprints, so I thought I'd share what I believe is the finest illustration in the Railway Series.

 

Almost Cuneo-like.

[Andy Kirkham]

Does anybody know whether Wilbert had a place named Sodor in mind when the first books were published?

 

If not, at what point in the series was Sodor conceived, and when did the illustrations begin to be informed by an established geography?

[Corbs]

10 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

Does anybody know whether Wilbert had a place named Sodor in mind when the first books were published?

 

If not, at what point in the series was Sodor conceived, and when did the illustrations begin to be informed by an established geography?

 

Sorry to hijack Tom's thread again but in the Reverend's own words...

Quote

By 1950 when the first four books had been written, letters began to come from sharp-eyed youngsters pointing out that engines and buildings often looked different in different books, and sometimes in the same one. It is quite useless to tell a five- or six-year-old that a mistake had been allowed to go into print. That sort of answer wouldn’t satisfy at all. To them the stories and pictures are real, and they are entitled to an explanation; so, in my replies, I had to make up a story to account for the discrepancy. I soon developed standard answers for the commonest questions...

(ABBREVIATED)
... if I could find a suitable location for the Fat Controller's Railway and map it, I could, so to speak, standardise the scenery at any given spot, and so avoid any more troublesome questions on that score.

But the great question was, Where?
My brother, George and I pored over maps of the British Isles but found nothing suitable till at last a preaching engagement in the Isle of Man suggested an answer. In a long week-end I was able to see something of the island which I had never visited before. I was also intrigued to find that though the Bishop had the title of Sodor and Man, he only had Man for his diocese. There is, of course, a historical reason for this, but as you have to go back some 700 years to find it, George and I decided that we could safely ignore it! We would, we felt, be doing the Bishop and his successors a kindness by restoring the other half of their diocese to them! This of course is the Island of Sodor lying between Barrow-in-Furness and the Isle of Man.
We mapped it carefully, putting in hills, valleys, mountains, rivers and lakes, together with railways, roads and the towns and villages they serve. The first edition of the map was published in 1958...

(ABBREVIATED)
... Once we had started to develop Sodor, we found we had begun something of absorbing interest, without which subsequent books in the series could never have been written convincingly.
Railways serve towns, villages and industries, and while place names are wrapped up in geography and/or history, the siting of industry depends largely on geology. The result was that before long we found ourselves evolving a political, social and economic history of the island. To do this we have had to delve into Irish, Scots, Norwegian, Icelandic, Manx and English history besides discovering Sudric sources of our own. The work combines the activities of historical characters and events with fictitious ones in what we hope is a convincing way. 

 

(I abbreviated sections of the above so it's not just copy and pasting from the book)

Edited August 4, 2019 by Corbs

[Tom F]

Removed original post, as Corbs answered Andy's question.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Tom F

[Csalem]

48 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

Does anybody know whether Wilbert had a place named Sodor in mind when the first books were published?

 

If not, at what point in the series was Sodor conceived, and when did the illustrations begin to be informed by an established geography?

 

This is an interesting page on the history of mapping the Island of Sodor:

https://web.archive.org/web/20171215002014/http://www.pegnsean.net/~railwayseries/mapsection.htm

[Gibbo675]

2 hours ago, Tom F said:

Happy Sunday folks. I've been busy with weathering commissions, so know NWR stuff to show. However, I have been collecting my favourite first editions from the Railway Series. I have noticed the print quality far surpasses the later reprints, so I thought I'd share what I believe is the finest illustration in the Railway Series.

 

Hi Tom,

 

I have always wondered why that man is walking in the four foot, I knew as child that he should have been in the cess !

 

Gibbo.

[Tom F]

7 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Tom,

 

I have always wondered why that man is walking in the four foot, I knew as child that he should have been in the cess !

 

Gibbo.

 

You are the second person to mention that to me, @BritishGypsum4 bringing it up when we chatted last night. I like to think maybe he's sort of crossing the track in a rush to let the shed staff know they need  a loco for 'the special'.

 

I agree though, big no no.....

Edited August 4, 2019 by Tom F