Hannet Purney

[Harlequin]

3 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Maybe, it is time to let Phil think the whole goods handling scene through, but I do think the following questions need to be considered:-

1) Did the yard handle anything except general agricultural needs and produce?

a) If so what was it, was the traffic seasonal or all the year round?

b) If seasonal, was it handled by expanding the normal timetabled trains or did it require "Q" paths?

c) Did other stations on the line or branch also participate in the traffic?

d) Did the traffic flow in one direction, if so, which direction was that, or did it flow along two or three of the directions away from the junction?

 

I really think the layout needs something to replace the Military Traffic, if it is going to satisfy long term.

Wow, that all needs some thinking about (!) but in general I will be aiming for plausibly entertaining operations rather than strictly correct operations

 

Quote

 

2) Associated with the above, I do wonder if the return loop is really as useful as it might appear?

    It appears to me easiest accessed to/from the branch, but its use seems not prototypical to branch traffic, even though some traffic such as the Paddington   -Bristol trains was a step above typical branch traffic.

I think a branch yard, similar to the upper branch yard on your suggestion for my  Lower Thames Yard would be a better answer?

This is a bit easier to answer:

 

Firstly, remember that the branch actually rejoins the network at the opposite end (Holt Junction). So the branch fiddle roads need some sort  of connection with the main lines. It is realistically possible for a train to leave down the branch and later re-appear on the up main, possibly having turned depending on how the various junctions are arranged.

 

Secondly, remember that the reversing loop will mainly be used to turn locos, not whole trains, and you can see how a loco at either end of a train in any of the storage roads could uncouple, run around the reversing loop past it's train, work it's way through the points fans and couple up to the other end.

 

In extremis it is possible for any whole train to be reversed without appearing on stage like this:

 

Down

• Down train enters any one of storage roads 1-9
• A route is then set from that road, around the loop and into the headshunt road 13
• The trains pulls forward around the loop into road 13.
• [The train has now reversed and is facing Up but it needs to clear the reversing headshunt and enter storage until needed]
• The headshunt points at O3 are then set for the clockwise loop and the train reverses around the loop until it has cleared the points feeding into one of the West storage roads 6-9. (Or roads 9-12 if you want it to re-appear coming Up the branch line.)
• A route is then set from the loop to the desired storage road and the train pulls forward into it.
• [The train is now facing Up and it can enter the scene on the Up main when required]

Up

• Up train enters any of the storage roads 1-12
• A route is then set from that road, around the loop and into the headshunt road 13
• The trains reverses around the loop into road 13.
• [The train has now reversed and is facing Down but it needs to clear the reversing headshunt and enter storage until needed]
• The headshunt points at O3 are then set for the clockwise loop and the train pulls forward around the loop until it has cleared the points feeding into one of the East storage roads 1-8.
• A route is then set from the loop to the desired storage road and the train reversed into it.
• [The train is now facing Down and it can enter the scene on the Down main when required]

Edited June 25, 2019 by Harlequin

[mdvle]

17 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

I really think the layout needs something to replace the Military Traffic, if it is going to satisfy long term

 

Suspect though that anything that creates more traffic is going to conflict with the goal of having a wide open countryside feel to the layout.

 

It might instead be a case where there is a need to build a basic version of the layout - no fiddle yard yet, just a loop of track on the back - and try running trains and see if it does what he wants.

[Craigw]

Hi Phil,

 

I have been looking at this on occasion and mulling things over. I also had a bit of a read of "GWR to Devizes" which has a good section on Patney and Chirton station. The area that jars for me is the goods shed and the military dock. The arrangement is overly complex and I do not see any reason you would need access via the goods to the military dock. The traffic there was both coaching and equipment which would have come to the station and been reversed into the dock (from the photos in the book) The dock was apparently used at times to load livestock wagons but again, they would likely be dropped there by one of the pick up goods . I also think that the goods shed would not likely be a undercover shed and I think that a smaller line side shed would suit the location better.The rest of the layout looks nicely open but I think the RH end looks cramped because of the overly complex track work. Personally, I would simplify things and lose the scissors like formation and the slip. To be honest, I would go closer still to the real thing and not have a goods shed at all. The attraction of  layout like this is watching the trains run through and dropping off or picking up a few wagons on the pick up goods. Breaking up of branch trains simply did not happen here. Despite waht you may think from my comments, I actually like this sort of layout because I happen to enjoy watching trains run and do a little bit of shunting.

 

Regards,

 

Craig

[Harlequin]

Hi Craig,

 

Thanks for your comments. It sounds like you understand what I'm trying to do.

 

In the space-time bubble where Hannet Purney exists there is no military traffic at the station and the dock is just a normal goods loading dock - a mini-platform with end access.

 

The scissors was due to me not quite understanding the subleties of Pewsey and the implications it has on operation of the branch platform.  Yours is not the only criticism of it and it's on the way out!

 

Watch this space...

Edited June 27, 2019 by Harlequin

[The Stationmaster]

Too much comparison with the military traffic at Patney isn't really valid in my view as Phil has adopted the track layout as his basis and clearly avoided the facilities that were needed to handle the military traffic.  

 

He has finished up with a country junction which has a running connection to a branch line (a nice idea and rarely modelled in this form plus a station which - like the real Patney - can easily reverse short passenger trains which have arrived off the Up Main Line and can also reverse (short) wholly branch passenger trains.   At the real location - like so many others - freight traffic at Patney was serviced via through trains which can run via either the branch or main line routes.  The track layout basically facilitates no other way of working freight traffic although provided it was not too long a freight trip could arrive on the Up Main and continue onto the branch or vice versa but the train might well be unrealistically short for the period being modelled and it would still have to be shunted in exactly the same way as through freight serving the station.

 

M None of know, beyond what he has said, Phil's back story for the layout but with its B&H/Extension heritage it will no doubt only be serving fairly small local communities as that was the situation for every station on the route and traffic will be governed by that background plus whatever he might care to ((reasonably) invent for freight traffic.  In my view, and knowledge of the route and are at the moment the station and surroundings capture pretty well the sort of area he is aiming to represent.

[Tallpaul69]

Phil has said he is aiming for plausible , entertaining operation, not strictly correct operation, which is fair enough.

At the end of the day, it is his railway, and he can best judge what compromises he can live with.

 

One overall planning decision worth making is how the line is to be run.

By this I mean realistically, what sort of operating sessions will normally be run? An hour, or less, or longer?

 

And during a session, what portion of a day is to be portrayed?

 

Why does this matter, I can hear you all saying?

 

It matters because you have to decide whether you are going to run in real time or accelerated time?

 

If you are going to run for an hour a day in real time , it will take 24 days to run a real days timetable, so with days off a month!

Conversely if you decide to run at 4 times speed so that your one hour running session represents 4 hours of the day, you can get through a day's timetable in a week!

However you might not be able to be slick enough with your wrong road shunting to clear your up slow goods to the down main, without there having to be a timetable hour (1/4 hour in real time) between your up through trains and a similar delay between down main trains.

 

Just a thought...…...

 

Best regards

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Tallpaul69 said:

It matters because you have to decide whether you are going to run in real time or accelerated time?

 

Or you could run a sequence of movements, each one at a realistic pace and the next one following when convenient, or overlapping if that is the desired effect at that point in the sequence.  No need to worry about the lengths of the intervals between trains or keeping up with a clock.  

[The Johnster]

There is a 3rd option between 'real' and 'accelerated' time, which I call 'condensed' time.  On a BLT or to a lesser extent the relatively quiet (at some times of the day anyway) Berks and Hants, there are periods when nothing happens; signals remain in position and no trains can be seen, or those that can are stationary.  On my layout, I condense these quiet periods, so that if I assume that a train that has just departed Cwmdimbath will take 10 minutes to clear the section to the junction and for the junction to offer the next up the valley and it to be accepted, it will be at least 20 minutes after the tail lamp of the departing train disappears under the scenic break until the smokebox of the next one up the valley noses into view.  I can condense this to about 5 minutes, and revert to operating in real 60 seconds to a minute time when the train is visible on the layout.  Shunting must then be done within the booked time or the timetable is upset, especially if as will often be the case at a crowded minimal station like Cwmdimbath there is nowhere to put a train aside out of the way! 

 

This can mean that traffic is left, and an extra 'as required' pickup trip is organised by Control if it is necessary to deal with it, or if it fitted it may go out as tail traffic on a passenger.  This is very much the sort of problem that staff had to solve the best way they could in real life, and enlivens the operation on the model, simultaneously introducing another element of operation.  It's not all just locos, you know...

 

I keep track of 'Cwmdimbath Time' with a battery operated clock that is switched off when operating sessions are suspended and has had the glass removed so that time can be 'condensed' by hand.  Or sometimes I don't bother and do it in my head.  Timetable runs from 05.40am until 00.05 am next day, and takes between 6 and 10 real days to run.  Box is open from 06.00 to midnight except on Saturdays when there is no goods or mineral services after midday and the evening workman's don't run, when it shuts at 18.00 and the branch is worked one engine in steam by the auto until the last train (00.05 ecs Tondu, stock from 23.15 Bridgend-Cwmdimbath; the real train ran to Abergwynfi, connecting with a down London at Bridgend.  Try getting up those valleys after about 9 in the evening by public transport nowadays!  No trains Sunday.

 

It is currently approaching 07.40 at Cwmdimbath, the morning miner's has departed and the first public service train of the day, an auto, is standing in the platform waiting for the first coal empties of the day to come up the valley and clear into the loop; the auto is away at 07.50 and connects with an up Paddington at Bridgend.  The coal empties will run around and shunt the van, by which time the ecs for the loco hauled Tremains ROF workman's will be on the way.  When it arrives, the empties go down the bank to the pit and lock themselves in with the ground frame, the Tremains loco runs around, and departs with the train at 08.20.  Nothing happens for about half an hour then, so the clock is stopped.  Operating sessions are simply picked up from where they are left off.

Edited June 27, 2019 by The Johnster

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Timetable runs from 05.40am until 00.05 am next day, and takes between 6 and 10 real days to run.  

 

That sounds more like "relaxed" than "condensed" time to me!

[The Johnster]

It can be, but if you’ve got extra traffic for the sawmill and pitprops on the pickup and have to shunt them as well as delivering fuel oil to the trading estate, all to be put away in real time with no compromise to make room for the next passenger, and a colliery clearance to shoehorn in somewhere amongst all that, you’ve got your work cut out and have earned a bit of a relax!

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That sounds more like "relaxed" than "condensed" time to me!

 

Not really.  Making an assumption on how the layout is being operated, but if you "slow" things down and operate locos at scale speeds and observe the rules, pause for the things that in real life take time like coupling and hand throwing switches, allow the time for a person to "walk" to their task and unsurprisingly even a condensed layout can take real amounts of time to operate.  So even allowing for the condensing away of the long periods of time where there is no rail traffic moving at all, given only spending an hour or so at a time operating and recreating an entire real day can take several operating sessions and given the need to complete tasks before the next timetabled event it can be fun yet a bit stressful.

[Harlequin]

Here's the latest version of Hannet Purney.

 

Track diagram:

• @Flying Pig's and @The Stationmaster's suggestion of a second connection between the goods and the branch loops just after the branch junction
• Goods shed moved to the new section of the goods loop.
• Scissors access to Dock siding removed.
• East crossovers simplified to avoid double slip. Now more like Patney.
• East portion of goods loop gives an alternative run round route, so long as there are no wagons standing on it.
• The goods yard is still very simple (see below)

Here's how the changes affected the layout (previous track plan in red):

• I pushed the entire station 20mm south to make more room for the goods yard and use the space better generally. This makes the transitions into the end radii slightly better as well.
• The island platform has a more curvy balloon shape.
• The dock siding is further from the road overbridge, making the gradient of the yard access road a bit easier.

And the full layout plan:

• The station overall feels a bit longer because the two western sidings surround the branch junction but I think I can disguise that with scenery.
• The goods yard is much longer now because of the new position of the goods shed. That's OK I think. Quite prototypical.
• The goods yard gets closer to the backscene because of the turning space needed behind the goods shed. I think that's OK too - the copse behind the fence should hide that proximity.
• I imagine lots of clutter lying around in the goods yard and I suggested a few piles of roadstone and coal.
• The two crossovers at the east end of the station use small radius points, something I'd usually avoid but anything longer changed the angles too much. Even so they are better than the double slip.

@Tallpaul69 asked, effectively, whether the activity of this simple station will be interesting enough for me. I think the answer is, Yes. The main goal is to see mainline traffic running and as @The Stationmaster has pointed out there are a lot of interesting variations to those traffic movements. I'll also get a lot of pleasure from simply seeing the famous named services come through (legitimately!) - the Cornish Riviera, the Weymouth boat train (I think), etc., and other characteristic workings such as the Bristol to Paddington via Devizes with it's siphon  and the big 2-8-0s hauling long distance freights. The small volume of goods handled at HP suits me fine and adds a little bit of seasoning to the recipe. In fact, even on this very simple track plan I can see that goods shunting could be quite intricate!

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

15 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

In fact, even on this very simple track plan I can see that goods shunting could be quite intricate

That's certainly true if you have the specific car spot concept. Shunting a layout with only one turnout can require a lot of planning if the wagons have to be in a specific order. More track and more sidings =/= more shunting fun, that's for sure.

[Craigw]

Phil,

 

In my opinion that is much better. It looks far less cluttered and I do not think that anything has been lost as far as the goods yard working goes. This is limited in any case, that is just the nature of a small station. Personally, that appeals to me. I like this arrangement, it works well to me.

 

Regards,

 

Craig

[clachnaharry]

I think that looks very good. The only thing that still jars a little with me is the double slip on the main line. What is the facing connection actually for?  It makes sense as a single slip providing a trailing crossover, but the facing connection seems to increase complexity without providing anything particularly useful.

Edited June 28, 2019 by clachnaharry

[Schooner]

It's funny, and I couldn't put my finger on why, but previous versions of H-P just didn't seem to have the Harlequin sparkle that exists even in some of your sketch layouts (eg 'L-shaped blank canvas' on this board)...

 

...now it does!

 

Love the premise, love the plan, double slip (I can see main line access to branch platform being handy) an' all 

 

PS: Is that your cunning plan for disguising the main line exit to the West - to lose it in the woods? I've wondered why that doesn't seem a more common approach, seems ideal!

Edited June 28, 2019 by Schooner
PS...

[Harlequin]

27 minutes ago, Schooner said:

It's funny, and I couldn't put my finger on why, but previous versions of H-P just didn't seem to have the Harlequin sparkle that exists even in some of your sketch layouts (eg 'L-shaped blank canvas' on this board)...

 

...now it does!

Thanks! I wonder where the sparkle comes from? "Less is more"? Or maybe just repeated revision until it's right.

 

Quote

 

Love the premise, love the plan, double slip (I can see main line access to branch platform being handy) an' all 

 

PS: Is that your cunning plan for disguising the main line exit to the West - to lose it in the woods? I've wondered why that doesn't seem a more common approach, seems ideal!

Yes, more or less. From most angles trains will be obscured by trees before they leave the scene but there's still a problem with the head-on angle. The tracks behind the backscene can be ballasted and given minimal scenic surrounds but the main problem is the hole in the backscene. To disguise that my idea is to bring the tree canopies from either side together over the tracks so that they just touch and shape them to suggest you are looking at the trees behind the backscene in perspective as they curve around the cutting.

 

BTW: The mainline really does head into a tree lined cutting to the west of Patney. I used a Google aerial view of those trees to paint the wooded areas on Hannet Purney:

Edited June 28, 2019 by Harlequin

[Tallpaul69]

I think you have got it all sorted now!

However, a word of warning about the trees!

The tree cover now is in many instances a lot denser than even 50 years ago, as I have found at Maidenhead when recently researching for Lower Thames Valley. So go back another 30 years and there may be even less trees?

 

As railway photos may not help (they tend to concentrate on the railway!),you might get some information from the library service or local newspaper files? I don't know if there is any local files etc. kept in Devizes?

 

Best regards

Paul  

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, clachnaharry said:

I think that looks very good. The only thing that still jars a little with me is the double slip on the main line. What is the facing connection actually for?  It makes sense as a single slip providing a trailing crossover, but the facing connection seems to increase complexity without providing anything particularly useful.

The double slip was of course like that in the real world at Patney and is rather unusual to say the least (something I mentioned and Phil commented on a good while back in this thread.  It was clearly done for a very specific reason which I suspect was because the position of the Devizes branch junction left no choice and that couldn't be moved because of the differences in level between the Westbury and Stert Line and the original B&H Extension Devizes line as they got further away from the station.  as such it is an oddity and rather unusual but very much in the spirit of Patney which Is why I was more than happy to go along with Phil keeping it in the track plan.

 

What it does is allow a train off the Up Main to get to the branch platform (which was regular timetabled move for the Westbury auto as I mentioned previously - it reversed in the 'branch' platform to return to Westbury) and it might well have had a use in connection with the military traffic as well.

 

Overall I think Phil has now got the track layout to 'excellent ' level - the opening out of the connections at the Woodborough end and removing that *!@&&$% scissors has made a huge, and positive, difference to the overall impact.  all he has to do now is build it!

 

I have commented before about the trees - pretty wrong for the 1970s (when I first got to know the location well passing it regularly for a period of almost 5 years although it was actually not quite on my patch so I had no reason to go nosing around there and in any case West Bay was a bit more attractive  ).  But trees are a good view blocker provided - as I've said before - they are kept off the cutting sides (which back in the past were burnt off twice a year).  But track layout and passing train opportunities it is an excellent job and I look forward to one day seeing pics of the Weymouth Boat Train dashing past.  I can give booked engine Class details for some of the post war equivalent freights if needed and can of course delve through the 1930s STT to dig out a full day's running.  Summer Saturday Down 'Limited' running in three parts anyone?

[The Johnster]

Maybe Hannet Purney can be served by a slip off a down express?

 

Sorry, that was just naughty, wasn't it...

[The Stationmaster]

A quick look at the public timetable for the Summer of 1929 shows 8 down passenger trains between 07.25 and 11.12 including Railmotor services to both Devizes and Westbury starting from Patney, one through train from Reading to Bristol via Devizes, a Paddington - Paignton via Lavington, and a Padd - Weymouth also via Lavington.  There was also a train from Bedwyn which terminated at Patney.  The interesting thing for that part of the day is that while 4 trains went towards Devizes only three ran via Lavington, but it will have changed a bit later in the day..  

 

It is also possible that the number of Railmotor workings towards Devizes reflected the very recent opening of Pans Lane Halt (opened March 1929, near Devizes) and the intention to provide a comparatively good level of local services serving it.

Edited June 28, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Maybe Hannet Purney can be served by a slip off a down express?

 

Sorry, that was just naughty, wasn't it...

 

I like the idea. And with a bridge at the east end of the layout, he does not even need to slip the coach off the train. It can just follow out from the fiddleyard close behind the train.

 

Seems perfectly reasonable that Devizes, Trowbridge and Bradford would merit a faster service provided with a slip. And of course it would need to be joined to trains in the up direction.

[Flying Pig]

7 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Seems perfectly reasonable that Devizes, Trowbridge and Bradford would merit a faster service provided with a slip. And of course it would need to be joined to trains in the up direction.

 

Slip it fast enough and it could make Devizes unaided; then a downhill restart and with a clear run Trowbridge should be achievable often enough to warrant inclusion in the timetable.

[Harlequin]

So some sort of adjustable catapult in the fiddle yard, then, so that every time you use it the slip coach glides to a halt in exactly the same spot against the platform face.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Slip it fast enough and it could make Devizes unaided; then a downhill restart and with a clear run Trowbridge should be achievable often enough to warrant inclusion in the timetable.

Regrettably there is a rising gradient on the Devizes line after it leaves Patney which might result in the slip coach terminating at Patney if the points can be reset quickly enough before it rolls back