Hannet Purney

[clachnaharry]

I love the idea of a slip coach but I think I am missing something on the operation. I though that down branch trains could only enter the branch via the down main platform road. How does that work if the slip coach is occupying the line?

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Re. The slip coaches: Oh dear, I'm either not understanding, or I'm missing the humour when people are joking or I'm getting conflicting advice! I think @Flyingpig specifically said the slip coach would not stop at HP. No matter - I can make the layout do the right thing, whatever that turns out to be!

 

It was, as Ramesh Majhu would say, the humour.  In real life as everyone has said, the slip coach would come to a stand in the station. If you want to model it, a powered coach is probably going to be much easier.

 

[Zomboid]

32 minutes ago, clachnaharry said:

I love the idea of a slip coach but I think I am missing something on the operation. I though that down branch trains could only enter the branch via the down main platform road. How does that work if the slip coach is occupying the line?

It would also have to slow (stop probably) to collect the single line token.

I could imagine it coming to a stand and then being attached to a branch train.

[Harlequin]

OK, thanks everyone. So, is this right?:

• The slip coach would be brought to a stop at the Down Main platform.
• There would be a pilot loco or a branch train timetabled to be standing at the Branch platform waiting to pick it up (or rescue it if things didn't go to plan). Assume it's a pilot loco for now.
• The pilot would cross onto the Down Main through the double-slips and back up to the slip coach.
• Couple up, connections made, vacuum tested, lamps re-arranged.
• The new train would then set back to clear the facing branch connection, if needed to, and then set off down the branch line.

Regarding powered slip coaches: It's subjective, of course, but since the real thing was unpowered and just relied on momentum it feels right, to me, for the model to do the same thing if at all possible. A slip coach that didn't slow down in a very Newtonian way would really annoy me - and a slip coach that sped up would drive me crazy!

 

I guess that some sort of DCC controlled braking might improve the realism, but that's as far as I'd go!

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Harlequin

[Stubby47]

And if you get the slip coach working, how many viewers will comment about you "losing the last coach off the train"?

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Harlequin said:

OK, thanks everyone. So, is this right?:

• The slip coach would be brought to a stop at the Down Main platform.
• There would be a pilot loco or a branch train timetabled to be standing at the Branch platform waiting to pick it up (or rescue it if things didn't go to plan). Assume it's a pilot loco for now.
• The pilot would cross onto the Down Main through the double-slips and back up to the slip coach.
• Couple up, connections made, vacuum tested, lamps re-arranged.
• The new train would then set back to clear the facing branch connection, if needed to, and then set off down the branch line.

Regarding powered slip coaches: It's subjective, of course, but since the real thing was unpowered and just relied on momentum it feels right, to me, for the model to do the same thing if at all possible. A slip coach that didn't slow down in a very Newtonian way would really annoy me - and a slip coach that sped up would drive me crazy!

 

I guess that some sort of DCC controlled braking might improve the realism, but that's as far as I'd go!

 

From humourous ideas to stark reality in a few contorted steps

 

So yes - the slip coach would be brought to a stand in the Down Main platform - a relatively simple process by virtue of the Slip Guard applying the (vacuum) brake to bring it to a stand there.   No need for a pilot at a little place like this - the branch engine would cross from the Branch Bay (yes - I know it isn't a bay but that was probably what it was called anyway) and drop back onto the coach and attach to.  The branch engine plus slip coach would then draw ahead clear of the trailing crossover and then propel back onto the branch train and attach the slip coach front of that train.  Then away down the branch.

 

Overall not really any different from the way it was done in numerous places over the years on certain railways but particularly on the GWR/WR.  For example the last slip coach working of all was done at Bicester in more or less that manner - the coach was slipped and came to a stand on the Down Main then the engine of the train standing in the Down Platform Loop drew ahead onto the Down Main, set back to attach the coach, then went ahead before setting back to attach the slip coach front of its train.  All done and the train went on its way after the Bicester passengers had alighted from the slip coach - see the linked film.

 

The procedure at Hannet Purney would be no different from what happened at a number of places where coaches were at one time slipped for attachment to branch trains.  Following a collision at Slough in 1870 the practice of changing points between the passage of the main train and the slipped portion was not looked upon kindly by the Railway Inspectorate and they recommended it should cease.  In any event the introduction of interlocking mitigated against it (as had been the case at Slough where partial interlocking and lack of familiarity with its effects contributed to the collisio)n.  But interlocking or not the practice of slipping coaches for branch lines (in this case for Windsor) was well established by the 1870 and definitely continued on the GWR until at least 1914 with regular slips for several branches.  I suspect that most of the slipping for smaller branches had died out by the 1930s although of course slipping sections for connections to more important places, such as Weymouth, continued into BR days.

 

Here's a film of the Bicester slip operation.  i don't know the Slip Guard although I knew Jackie Wells the Guard of the main train seen (on the right) talking to the Slip Guard befiore departure from Paddington.  

 

 

Edited August 2, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[Harlequin]

18 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

From humourous ideas to stark reality in a few contorted steps

 

So yes - the slip coach would be brought to a stand in the Down Main platform - a relatively simple process by virtue of the Slip Guard applying the (vacuum) brake to bring it to a stand there.   No need for a pilot at a little place like this - the branch engine would cross from the Branch Bay (yes - I know it isn't a bay but that was probably what it was called anyway) and drop back onto the coach and attach to.  The branch engine plus slip coach would then draw ahead clear of the trailing crossover and then propel back onto the branch train and attach the slip coach front of that train.  Then away down the branch.

 

Overall not really any different from the way it was done in numerous places over the years on certain railways but particularly on the GWR/WR.  For example the last slip coach working of all was done at Bicester in more or less that manner - the coach was slipped and came to a stand on the Down Main then the engine of the train standing in the Down Platform Loop drew ahead onto the Down Main, set back to attach the coach, then went ahead before setting back to attach the slip coach front of its train.  All done and the train went on its way after the Bicester passengers had alighted from the slip coach - see the linked film.

 

The procedure at Hannet Purney would be no different from what happened at a number of places where coaches were at one time slipped for attachment to branch trains.  Following a collision at Slough in 1870 the practice of changing points between the passage of the main train and the slipped portion was not looked upon kindly by the Railway Inspectorate and they recommended it should cease.  In any event the introduction of interlocking mitigated against it (as had been the case at Slough where partial interlocking and lack of familiarity with its effects contributed to the collisio)n.  But interlocking or not the practice of slipping coaches for branch lines (in this case for Windsor) was well established by the 1870 and definitely continued on the GWR until at least 1914 with regular slips for several branches.  I suspect that most of the slipping for smaller branches had died out by the 1930s although of course slipping sections for connections to more important places, such as Weymouth, continued into BR days.

 

Here's a film of the Bicester slip operation.  i don't know the Slip Guard although I knew Jackie Wells the Guard of the main train seen (on the right) talking to the Slip Guard befiore departure from Paddington.  

 

 

Absolutely wonderful! Thanks Mike!

 

So, if I'm going to do it I may have to bend reality very slightly to justify slip coach working in my era and my location but not too much.

 

[clachnaharry]

27 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

So yes - the slip coach would be brought to a stand in the Down Main platform - a relatively simple process by virtue of the Slip Guard applying the (vacuum) brake to bring it to a stand there.   No need for a pilot at a little place like this - the branch engine would cross from the Branch Bay (yes - I know it isn't a bay but that was probably what it was called anyway) and drop back onto the coach and attach to.  The branch engine plus slip coach would then draw ahead clear of the trailing crossover and then propel back onto the branch train and attach the slip coach front of that train.  Then away down the branch.

 

 

For this scenario, then the up branch train must have terminated in the Branch Bay (and now forms the down branch train). that then means that the northermost loop siding has to be kept clear of wagons and used as the Branch Bay run round loop. Is that really  the intention?

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, clachnaharry said:

 

For this scenario, then the up branch train must have terminated in the Branch Bay (and now forms the down branch train). that then means that the northermost loop siding has to be kept clear of wagons and used as the Branch Bay run round loop. Is that really  the intention?

The branch engine could run round via the Main Lines - but that does of course need a margin between the passing trains on the Main Lines.

[chuffinghell]

54 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

From humourous ideas to stark reality in a few contorted steps

 

So yes - the slip coach would be brought to a stand in the Down Main platform - a relatively simple process by virtue of the Slip Guard applying the (vacuum) brake to bring it to a stand there.   No need for a pilot at a little place like this - the branch engine would cross from the Branch Bay (yes - I know it isn't a bay but that was probably what it was called anyway) and drop back onto the coach and attach to.  The branch engine plus slip coach would then draw ahead clear of the trailing crossover and then propel back onto the branch train and attach the slip coach front of that train.  Then away down the branch.

 

Overall not really any different from the way it was done in numerous places over the years on certain railways but particularly on the GWR/WR.  For example the last slip coach working of all was done at Bicester in more or less that manner - the coach was slipped and came to a stand on the Down Main then the engine of the train standing in the Down Platform Loop drew ahead onto the Down Main, set back to attach the coach, then went ahead before setting back to attach the slip coach front of its train.  All done and the train went on its way after the Bicester passengers had alighted from the slip coach - see the linked film.

 

The procedure at Hannet Purney would be no different from what happened at a number of places where coaches were at one time slipped for attachment to branch trains.  Following a collision at Slough in 1870 the practice of changing points between the passage of the main train and the slipped portion was not looked upon kindly by the Railway Inspectorate and they recommended it should cease.  In any event the introduction of interlocking mitigated against it (as had been the case at Slough where partial interlocking and lack of familiarity with its effects contributed to the collisio)n.  But interlocking or not the practice of slipping coaches for branch lines (in this case for Windsor) was well established by the 1870 and definitely continued on the GWR until at least 1914 with regular slips for several branches.  I suspect that most of the slipping for smaller branches had died out by the 1930s although of course slipping sections for connections to more important places, such as Weymouth, continued into BR days.

 

Here's a film of the Bicester slip operation.  i don't know the Slip Guard although I knew Jackie Wells the Guard of the main train seen (on the right) talking to the Slip Guard befiore departure from Paddington.  

 

 

 

I could watch that over and over, love film clips that that

 

These days health and safety executives would faint seeing those boys so close to the line

 

 

[clachnaharry]

37 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The branch engine could run round via the Main Lines - but that does of course need a margin between the passing trains on the Main Lines.

 

True, but that would require the engine to run wrong road through the up main platform. Would that be a signalled move, or would the signalman authorise it with flags?

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎31‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 21:42, Harlequin said:

Hi Paul,

 

I think I would be running in some sort of accelerated time but I take your point: A long enough elapsed time between the same train appearing, ideally with a different loco, should obscure the repetition - so long as the train is not particularly memorable. The strategic changing of a few vehicles and, as you say, being able to reverse the train would also help. Since this layout has the ability to reverse entire trains maybe wagons with different liveries on each side would be a good cheat! (Only joking!)

 

Couplings are a thorny issue, aren't they? As you say, with the pre-war GWR you can't really run fixed formations of coaches, you need to be able to really mix things up. I have a long list of features that the ideal coupling system should have and when I can't sleep at night my mind turns it over and over, trying to work out a way to satisfy all the major points on that list...

 

I hope Lower Thames Yard is still coming together somewhere!

 

Hi Phil,

I thought long and hard on the coupling question before taking the plunge and going for Kadees. I have yet to use them seriously on my test track but hope to soon, I will let you know how I get on! Initial impressions on fitting some goods wagons is good.

Re Lower Thames Yard, the timetabling exercise is on the back burner until the Autumn. Problems with Chipping locos and domestic needs such as holidays having prompted a rethink of priorities.

No sooner had i coped with the rot problem on some of my locos I then was faced with the high current requirements of Lima locos (they love to blow up chips!!). So I have been busy finding Hornby chassis for the locos I need which are reissued by Hornby with modern motors and chip sockets. Trouble is having paid unplanned amounts for the chassis, I now am, in the short term, short of funds for them to be chipped!

 

Love the slip coach saga which demonstrates you should be careful what you joke about. When can we see a prototype??

 

Best regards to all, I am away next week, so will pick up the tread ina couple of weeks!

 

Paul

 

[Stubby47]

If your slip coach can be uncoupled on-scene, then a simple tension lock coupling with the hook filed off would work as it passes over a raised ramp.

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Absolutely wonderful! Thanks Mike!

 

So, if I'm going to do it I may have to bend reality very slightly to justify slip coach working in my era and my location but not too much.

 

Only a slight bending of reality Phil - your equivalent of Devizes gets a bit more important oo there's a gap in the semi-fast through trains from London and so on.  Readily supported by the right back story I reckon.

 

6 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

If your slip coach can be uncoupled on-scene, then a simple tension lock coupling with the hook filed off would work as it passes over a raised ramp.

Stu I don't think the problem is uncoupling but rather getting the inertia and stopping right which could be rather more difficult especially with the rolling resistance round the curvature.  And I understand that it sometimes went wrong in the real world with the slip coach stopping short due to an over zealous Slip Guard braking a bit hard or 'rubbing' the brake and exhausting the vacuum tanks so the brake applied itself.

[Stubby47]

Always aim to overshoot and have under track magnets on a lever that can be raised/lowered to retard the coach plus more at the correct stopping place in the station.

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Only a slight bending of reality Phil - your equivalent of Devizes gets a bit more important oo there's a gap in the semi-fast through trains from London and so on.  Readily supported by the right back story I reckon.

 

 

The scenario I had in mind was a rather portly and very loud local MP who insisted his town had a direct connection to London for trade (but mainly for his own benefit) and the slip coach was retained as the ultimate conclusion of a lot of hard bargaining and brinkmanship in Westminster.

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 02/08/2019 at 19:42, Harlequin said:

 

The scenario I had in mind was a rather portly and very loud local MP who insisted his town had a direct connection to London for trade (but mainly for his own benefit) and the slip coach was retained as the ultimate conclusion of a lot of hard bargaining and brinkmanship in Westminster.

 

Nothing new in that - the GCR certainly gave way to the landed gentry on at least one occasion when it came to providing a slip coach working to get them home quickly after a day in London or the House of Lords or whatever they did in London.   I suspect a GWR Windsor slip might possibly have been for the benefit of Sir Daniel Gooch in his later years.

[Harlequin]

Here's an interesting new facet:

I just found out that my distant relative, Albert Pibworth, "Old Pib", was the driver of LNER 4474 when it worked the Cornish Riviera Express during the exchange trials in 1925.

I'm away from my books at the moment so I don't know if Hannet Purney would have existed in the proposed form at that date but it would be really interesting to run a surprise LNER pacific through the scene occasionally!

 

I have written a Blog post about Driver Pibworth here: 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Harlequin