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APT Resurrection?


Crewlisle
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1 hour ago, Vistisen said:

Will it be released in the full Brexit livery?

 

 

We are still waiting for those involved in deciding upon the full Brexit livery to make their minds up as to what it will be...

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6 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

We are still waiting for those involved in deciding upon the full Brexit livery to make their minds up as to what it will be...

That's easy. The Full hardcore no Brexit will be no paint at all. Otherwise I assume that passengers will be allow to pay to use it  by bringing along their old half dried tins of paint as part of the new BR-barter system. In which case it will be inevitably be mostly 'magnolia' .

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On 29/06/2019 at 10:26, woodenhead said:

If there is a market for an APT-P you're going to need a company that has been there done that not a new start up.

 

Why does it have to be someone that is already in the market? As long as any party which may want to have a shot at the APT-P proposes it with a what it was missing in the first place.

If someone did a proper business plan with appreciation of the costs, the potential market size and if crowdfunding not start using funds on the project until it has hit its funding target then I see no reason why not.

That been said while in OO I think it could come to fruition in N gauge I don't think there is enough of a market at a reasonable price to make it a reality.

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13 hours ago, acko22 said:

 

Why does it have to be someone that is already in the market? As long as any party which may want to have a shot at the APT-P proposes it with a what it was missing in the first place.

If someone did a proper business plan with appreciation of the costs, the potential market size and if crowdfunding not start using funds on the project until it has hit its funding target then I see no reason why not.

That been said while in OO I think it could come to fruition in N gauge I don't think there is enough of a market at a reasonable price to make it a reality.

I suspect that part of the problem with the DJM attempt is that there was not really enough serious buyers. I was worried when from the outset Dave already claimed that this was not a project from which he would make money. Model railway producers are not charities,  If the DJM APT really was at best a break even project, then I would suggest that no one else should attempt it. My logic is that if they were a new startup then a large number of the people who got their fingers burnt the first time around would not take a plunge into a new project. This means that the number of orders will not reach a realistic cutoff point. If they are an established company and if £1000 for the full model would not make DJM any money. then it would either cost even more and therefore again the orders would not be high enough. or it would be a loss making model that would drag them down. Let's face it in these times of a TRUMP trade war/ Brexit potential meltdown. It would have to be a very brave or very stupid manufacturer that would take the chance on making such an expensive project.

 

The only way I could see it happening is as a long time release starting with the powercar, a single carriage and driving car.  this would enable a minimum train length. Subsequent carriages  could then be produced one a year until the whole set is complete, This might work as it would spreads the cost for both the manufacturer and us who buy them. It would of course mean that we would have to be patient and wait. but I'm sure that's no problem for us:jester:

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42 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

The only way I could see it happening is as a long time release starting with the powercar, a single carriage and driving car.  this would enable a minimum train length. Subsequent carriages  could then be produced one a year until the whole set is complete, This might work as it would spreads the cost for both the manufacturer and us who buy them. It would of course mean that we would have to be patient and wait. but I'm sure that's no problem for us:jester:

 

That sounds like one of those magazine style build it yourself schemes.

 

Year 1 build a power car

.....

.....

Year 14 build the final driving car

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16 hours ago, acko22 said:

Why does it have to be someone that is already in the market? As long as any party which may want to have a shot at the APT-P proposes it with a what it was missing in the first place...

This would be the project for the classic question: How do you make a small fortune in model railways?

 

A. Produce a full model of the APT-P on the basis of your large fortune.

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On 20/06/2019 at 21:09, Crewlisle said:

Naturally there is a mixture of positive and negative comments to my original post; unfortunately most appear to be negative.  Yes, there were quite a number of variations to choose from the DJModels APT;  I chose the 5 car version to fit my existing Hornby APT cassette on 'Crewlisle'.   It did run as a test train of 5 cars as I have seen a photo.

The two comments I do disagree with is that it would be too expensive and was only running for a short period of time 36 years ago.  The example I quote to refute these arguments is the Midland Blue Pullman which first ran 59 years ago from 1960 until 1966 when the WCML electrification from Euston to Manchester/Liverpool was completed.  Bachmann introduced their 6 car model in 2014 and I paid just under £200 with a rrp of £270 (I think) for the first run which quickly sold out.  It was so popular that they did a re-run a few years later.

An 00 gauge 5 car APT-P might be worth considering with modern motors, DCC onboard, lights and similar carriage connections to the Blue Pullman (plus of course the tilt mechanism).

 

As an up to date price comparison, a certain Liverpool retailer has just received Hornby latest 5 car IET (R3514).

 

Their price £379.50.

 

so unlikely to be much change out of £400 for a 5 car APT and probably not much under £500 given the extra moulds needed for the APT (IET needs only 2 body tools).

 

A 14 car for under £1000 then looks even more fantasy than it did 18months ago

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Think a more likely "success" would be to do say a 7 or 8 vehicle rake.  The other idea would be to offer the half sets and also offer an extra (un-numbered)  powercar, so people could run 7 + 1 or 7 + 7.

 

Regards,

 

C.

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How would that work? You can't run an APT half-set.  A 7 car set would be

Driving car - intermediate trailer - inner trailer - power car - inner trailer - intermediate trailer - driving trailer

or both intermediate trailers could of course be in the same "half". Buying a second 7 car set would be pointless, and selling it as two 7 car half sets (driving trailer, 4 intermediate trailers, inner trailer, power car) would be equally useless as you couldn't run one without the other.

To expand it you'd need to add more intermediate trailers so something like an expansion pack, as per the Kato Eurostar, would be needed. Realistically that's the only way to do it otherwise you end up with dozens of options and end up in the mess that DJM got into over how many coaches should be in a set, how many of each, etc etc. Trying to cater for everybody all the time is impossible. Want a short one? Have 7 coaches. Want longer? Buy the extension pack and use as many as you can fit. But as has been said already, either it needs to be a lower spec model (which no doubt everyone will complain about even if it means the difference between it getting made or not) or it will be extremely expensive. 

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17 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Why not a basic five car set a la Hornby then sell individual trailers, power cars, and dining cars leaving the buyer to order as many of each coach as he/she desires?

 

 

Hi Colin,

 

Two words, too simple !

 

As for those that say that it is not cost effective, then there is the phrase "speculate to accumulate.

 

Although, I would say that there is more to life than money and to only see the financial aspect is to fully appreciate how far Humanity has fallen, not worry though !

 

Gibbo.

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2 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

As for those that say that it is not cost effective, then there is the phrase "speculate to accumulate.

 

Although, I would say that there is more to life than money and to only see the financial aspect is to fully appreciate how far Humanity has fallen, not worry though !

 

Gibbo.

 

Then perhaps you should put your money where your mouth is and commission one from an existing company. After all, there is more to life than money!

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9 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Then perhaps you should put your money where your mouth is and commission one from an existing company. After all, there is more to life than money!

Hi Phil,

 

My comment is more aimed toward the combined efforts of the perpetual "nay sayers" on threads such as this and as such I am more than happy to politely share my opinions and not my financial standing thank you. 

 

That said, I have have quite happily put my money where ebay is and shall in time be doing a cut and shut thanks all the same.

 

I will also be on with an APT-E once it is done for I like building my own stuff.

 

Not to worry though !

 

Gibbo.

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2 hours ago, JDW said:

Aha, yet more interesting projects to look forward to from the workbench of @Gibbo675 !!

Hi JDW,

 

Cheers for the compliment, I actually forgotten that I have already scratch built an N gauge APT-E fro a Graham Farrish class 91 and some heavily modified Mk2 B4 bogies. It doesn't tilt though, that would have been far too much like trouble to engineer !

DSCF0240.JPG.4b13677bc60900628052dede82aa7a30.JPG

Here it is on David Forshaw's Burshaw layout, David built the HST and I think they rather compliment each other.

 

Gibbo.

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1 hour ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi JDW,

 

Cheers for the compliment, I actually forgotten that I have already scratch built an N gauge APT-E fro a Graham Farrish class 91 and some heavily modified Mk2 B4 bogies. It doesn't tilt though, that would have been far too much like trouble to engineer !

DSCF0240.JPG.4b13677bc60900628052dede82aa7a30.JPG

Here it is on David Forshaw's Burshaw layout, David built the HST and I think they rather compliment each other.

 

Gibbo.

 

Now you're just teasing us!  Seriously though, that looks rather good, as does the HST.

 

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On 17 June 2019 at 09:54, Pete the Elaner said:

Anyone considering re-tooling such a product needs to be confident they can sell enough to make a decent return.

 

If a company can develop and sell an APT that covers it's costs, I don't see why it needs to make any sort of "decent return".  While making something not for profit seems silly, if making it doesn't cause a loss, surely adding such a unique train to a portfolio as well as the advertising [the company producing it] will get, it's worth doing?

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10 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

If a company can develop and sell an APT that covers it's costs, I don't see why it needs to make any sort of "decent return".  While making something not for profit seems silly, if making it doesn't cause a loss, surely adding such a unique train to a portfolio as well as the advertising [the company producing it] will get, it's worth doing?

You obviously don't have shareholders and analysts to impress then.

 

Breaking even on a project is a nice to have when things don't go according to plan. But it's not something to aim for in commerce. It's profits that drive business, not 'getting by'.

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32 minutes ago, truffy said:


28 minutes ago, truffy said:

 
You obviously don't have shareholders and analysts to impress then.


Breaking even on a project is a nice to have when things don't go according to plan. But it's not something to aim for in commerce. It's profits that drive business, not 'getting by'.

 

 
Yes, I understand.
But I also see the bigger picture.  If ONE SINGLE model covers it's own costs (tooling, marketing, salaries), then I wouldn't be chasing after profits if in the long run it helps the busines as a whole (through the fame of producing it).

Look at companies that have built their brand on marketing fluff - Virgin, Dyson...  it's about the bigger picture, not sucking profit from every single model you possibly can, especially when it's as iconic and complicated as the APT.
 

If I had the money, I'd approach a company and get them to produce a model.  I wouldn't be doing it for the profit, I'd be doing it because I wanted the model.

 

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I kind of get where you're going with that idea, using it as a publicity tool in a similar way to supermarkets using "loss leaders" but no company is going to invest so much time and effort into something that would be bigger than any other project, take a disproportionate amount of time, and not bring profit to re-invest in developing other items. If a one man band is happy doing that just to get a model to market, then so be it. But for a project this size (as DJ has proven!) it's just too much. No big company will use their resources like that. If you had the money and approached a company, they would cost it, design and make it, but still they'd be making a profit on what they charge you, it wouldn't be done "at cost".

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7 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

 
...
Look at companies that have built their brand on marketing fluff - Virgin, Dyson...  it's about the bigger picture, not sucking profit from every single model you possibly can, especially when it's as iconic and complicated as the APT.
...

 

 

I’m not sure the point you’re trying to make with those two because they’re so different. 

 

Dyson has aimed to make fantastically huge profits on everything he’s produced. A few of his products have tanked (the washing machine didn’t find a market), but I don’t think he knowingly launches a product which he intends will only break even. 

 

Branson has for years argued that his fundamental strategy is to build long-term capital value, and that he doesn’t chase annual profits (hence him taking his companies back into private ownership after trying to launch them as plcs: he couldn’t work with what he saw as “short-termism”). Virgin Atlantic, to take one example, was never particularly profitable, but his intention was to build a major business that could then be sold. Which he did. 

 

I’m not aware of any model railway company that’s like Virgin; whereas I’d guess most would want to be like Dyson. Dave is the only one I’ve ever heard saying he was deliberately producing something as “not for profit” (which — given unpredictable development times, relatively large upfront costs, and forex volatility — seems like a likely way of losing money).

 

Paul

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As the thread is called apt resurrection and is in the Hornby part of the forum I thought we were talking about the 5 car Hornby model maybe with new motor, would anyone be happy with this or as has been mentioned in the thread are more coaches essential. Would it sell in the5 car format?

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