B15nac Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 I'm in a bit of a quandary I want a manor for my layout in 4mm but feel the Bachmann one looks old fashioned next to my other model's. I think the manor's looked excellent maybe one of the best looking GW locos an can't believe Hornby or Bachmann has not updated it yet. What options are available in 00 is there a good kit you can buy? I was hoping for a manor to be released this year an I no I got to be patience but I really hope it gets updated soon so I can buy a few! maybe 5!! Regards Neil 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 Apart from the Bachmann (ex Mainline) Manor, not much. There were a few kits but they all disappeared when the Mainline version came out. They were M&L, Alan Gibson and a poor quality etched brass kit by Jidenco/Falcon Brass. The only kit that was up to modern standards was the Malcolm Mitchell kit which is discontinued. But even when available would set you back a couple of hundred pounds when you add all the parts up. http://www.gwr.org.uk/kits4locos.html The other option is detailing the Bachmann one. Plenty of suppliers make parts and Comet/Wizard make a replacement chassis. Dimensionally it's pretty accurate. Just a bit dated considering it's about forty years old! Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 As the only person on the planet who thinks Manors are boring, my opinion probably isn't worth much, and I hesitate to criticise the Bachmann because of its age, but it never looked much like a Manor to me, and istr the essence of the problem being the taper on the bottom of the Bachmann boiler (and an overwide firebox front??) 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 21, 2019 This is getting to be a regular subject; someone bemoans the lack of an available RTR Manor to modern standards and we all chip in with our 5 penn'orth. Despite the Manor being a persistent big hitter in polls and on wishlists, no model is in current production or announced for future production, and the only source is secondhand Mainline and their Bachmann derivates from 'Bay. These are all based on the old Mainline tooling which Miss P has criticised above. Boiler taper aside, it suffers IIRC from an over-wide firebox but is otherwise not a bad offering appearance wise for it's age, with a cab clear of motor and fully detailed. But the Mainline had one of their split chassis with the consequent issue of reliability associated with these, and I am unfamiliar with the various later Bachmann versions but they are pretty outdated now and not up to modern performance standards. Nevertheless, if you want a Manor now or in the foreseeable future this is your only current option. The consistent performance in polls must surely mean that somebody is working on the idea for the future, but how long into the future is at best a moot point and you might have to wait years. Bachmann are currently taking about 5 years to bring models to market after announcing them, and Hornby do things differently, not announcing until they are nearly ready to produce, so who knows if they have something in the pipeline. Dapol and Heljan are playing their cards equally close to their chests, and change the subject if you mention it to them. All of them might be holding back to avoid the sort of duplication that Hornby have had, or contributed to depending on your point of view, with the Adams Radial, Terrier, 14xx, J94, and Large Prairie. Hornby are in a fairly strong position to produce a Manor, having already produced a suitable chassis and mechanism for their Grange, and it is possible to upgrade a Mainline Manor with a Hornby Grange Chassis, but there's not much space and a lot of filing and fitting is involved and the chassis has to be shortened at the back. Similarly, the Dapol mechanism to be produced soon for their 43xx and Large Prairie can be used for a Manor (some Manors were rebuilds of withdrawn 43xx), and by the same token so can that from the new Hornby Large Prairie. But this is a stage beyond RTR OOB modelling and one would have to fit the mech to the Mainline body moulding, and fabricate mounting brackets and fixings for it as well. Or there's the Comet chassis kit, again probably a bit of a commitment for anyone used to OOB and not cheap. None of the other kits are IMHO up to the standard of the Bachmann, which is itself not perfect, and hence to my mind pointless, with the exception of the Mitchell if you could source one, but that is a very major outlay and really more of a scratch build aid. The good news if you are modelling GW or WR steam is that you can get away without having a Manor on your layout at all, desirable though they are, unless you are modelling the Cambrian section or Ruabon-Barmouth. But that doesn't stop them being a very attractive prototype whose popularity is maintained by the relatively large number of the class that have survived into preservation. They are, for layouts based later than the very earliest BR days, the smallest named GW locos you can use, and this also plays to their popularity among modellers; shorter than a Grange or Hall and this is important on layouts with limited space where every mm counts in sidings and on fiddle yard roads. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted June 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 21, 2019 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-PREMIER-KITS-UNMADE-KIT-FOR-A-G-W-R-B-R-MANOR-CLASS-4-6-0/113790062548?hash=item1a7e6a8fd4:g:C6YAAOSwglJdCnwY&frcectupt=true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 As the prototype Grange and Manor chassis were all but identical except for the Grange being a bit longer at the back i wonder if the Hornby Grange chassis will fit the Bachmann Manor body. The firebox is too high and wide as per virtually everything GWR and ex Mainline taper boiler but I can live with that. We have 2 Bachmann Manors, the driving wheels fell off one about 20 minutes from taking it out of the box and the other had its slide bar brace fall off and be lost forever requiring a bodge. Neither run particularly nicely. I also have a Mainline Manor body with a Triang Hall chassis with 22mm Romfords painted lined BR green about 35 years ago when unlined GWR livery was the only RTR option which just keeps working and with plenty of lead ballast manages 6 MK1s up a 1 in 36 where the Bachmann struggles with 4 (as does the Hornby Grange, which is why my Hornby Grange now has a Triang Hall chassis....) So back to where I started how about Hornby Grange chassis and Bachmann or Mainline Manor body. The other alternative is don't bother with a Manor. There were only 30, and 10 of them were BR built, and apart from blue routes in mid Wales and piloting in South Devon were pretty rare beasts. 2 seemed to run on the MSWJR from Cheltenham Midland station to Southampton terminus, migrating to Reading - Redhill SR services towards 1965 but most GW routes saw them only rarely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 22, 2019 A shortened Hornby Grange chassis will fit inside a Mainline/Bachmann Manor body but requires a lot of fitting and careful removal of plastic from inside the body by all accounts. 'Only' 30 Manors got around the WR quite a bit. Their stomping grounds were the blue routes certainly, but Shrewsbury's allocation worked into the West Midlands and on the North to West Route, Reading's worked to Redhill, and Gloucester had a couple towards the end of steam for the Hereford road that found their way down to South Wales on freight jobs. You can, as I've said, justify not having one at all if you are not modelling the Welsh blue routes, but at the same time you can probably justify including one as well for most places on the GW or WR, though the exact period is critical in some places. Rare, but not unknown in most areas. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 (edited) On 21/06/2019 at 02:40, The Johnster said: This is getting to be a regular subject; someone bemoans the lack of an available RTR Manor to modern standards and we all chip in with our 5 penn'orth. Despite the Manor being a persistent big hitter in polls and on wishlists, no model is in current production or announced for future production, and the only source is secondhand Mainline and their Bachmann derivates from 'Bay. These are all based on the old Mainline tooling which Miss P has criticised above. Boiler taper aside, it suffers IIRC from an over-wide firebox but is otherwise not a bad offering appearance wise for it's age, with a cab clear of motor and fully detailed. But the Mainline had one of their split chassis with the consequent issue of reliability associated with these, and I am unfamiliar with the various later Bachmann versions but they are pretty outdated now and not up to modern performance standards. Nevertheless, if you want a Manor now or in the foreseeable future this is your only current option. The consistent performance in polls must surely mean that somebody is working on the idea for the future, but how long into the future is at best a moot point and you might have to wait years. Bachmann are currently taking about 5 years to bring models to market after announcing them, and Hornby do things differently, not announcing until they are nearly ready to produce, so who knows if they have something in the pipeline. Dapol and Heljan are playing their cards equally close to their chests, and change the subject if you mention it to them. All of them might be holding back to avoid the sort of duplication that Hornby have had, or contributed to depending on your point of view, with the Adams Radial, Terrier, 14xx, J94, and Large Prairie. Hornby are in a fairly strong position to produce a Manor, having already produced a suitable chassis and mechanism for their Grange, and it is possible to upgrade a Mainline Manor with a Hornby Grange Chassis, but there's not much space and a lot of filing and fitting is involved and the chassis has to be shortened at the back. Similarly, the Dapol mechanism to be produced soon for their 43xx and Large Prairie can be used for a Manor (some Manors were rebuilds of withdrawn 43xx), and by the same token so can that from the new Hornby Large Prairie. But this is a stage beyond RTR OOB modelling and one would have to fit the mech to the Mainline body moulding, and fabricate mounting brackets and fixings for it as well. Or there's the Comet chassis kit, again probably a bit of a commitment for anyone used to OOB and not cheap. None of the other kits are IMHO up to the standard of the Bachmann, which is itself not perfect, and hence to my mind pointless, with the exception of the Mitchell if you could source one, but that is a very major outlay and really more of a scratch build aid. The good news if you are modelling GW or WR steam is that you can get away without having a Manor on your layout at all, desirable though they are, unless you are modelling the Cambrian section or Ruabon-Barmouth. But that doesn't stop them being a very attractive prototype whose popularity is maintained by the relatively large number of the class that have survived into preservation. They are, for layouts based later than the very earliest BR days, the smallest named GW locos you can use, and this also plays to their popularity among modellers; shorter than a Grange or Hall and this is important on layouts with limited space where every mm counts in sidings and on fiddle yard roads. I don’t think it is fair to describe the Mitchell Manor as a scratch building aid. It is a complete kit and fully buildable. I am working on one at the moment and the changes I have made are to suit my personal preferences rather than anything intrinsically wrong with the kit. This one is intended for double heading a King in the Mid 1950s and will be done in plain black as 7820 which was a Laira engine at the time. Image below of parts balanced together. Nickel silver bits are mine to replace kit parts to get finer boiler bands and a finer smokebox door. Mark Humphrys Edited June 22, 2019 by Mark 8 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted June 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 22, 2019 20 hours ago, DavidCBroad said: As the prototype Grange and Manor chassis were all but identical except for the Grange being a bit longer at the back i wonder if the Hornby Grange chassis will fit the Bachmann Manor body. Why wonder about it when you can use the search function on here ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B15nac Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share Posted June 23, 2019 Thanks for all your replies has anyone used 3d printed axles on a Bachmann manor or Bachmann split chassis to see if this helps the running? Regards Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted June 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2019 On 22/06/2019 at 01:26, The Johnster said: A shortened Hornby Grange chassis will fit inside a Mainline/Bachmann Manor body but requires a lot of fitting and careful removal of plastic from inside the body by all accounts. 'Only' 30 Manors got around the WR quite a bit. Their stomping grounds were the blue routes certainly, but Shrewsbury's allocation worked into the West Midlands and on the North to West Route, Reading's worked to Redhill, and Gloucester had a couple towards the end of steam for the Hereford road that found their way down to South Wales on freight jobs. You can, as I've said, justify not having one at all if you are not modelling the Welsh blue routes, but at the same time you can probably justify including one as well for most places on the GW or WR, though the exact period is critical in some places. Rare, but not unknown in most areas. Dont forget Newton Abbot had them initially for South Devon bank pilots Phil 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 Although first introduced to the GWR in the late 30s, I don't think the Manors made it on to the Cambrian until after WW2 as bridges needed to be strengthened and the turntable at Aberystwyth wasn't big enough (replaced with a turning triangle). None of which stops me running a Manor on my model of Aberystwyth, nominally set in 1938, but it does show you don't need one even if you model the Cambrian. Manirs were also used on the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth route, and I think I've seen photos of them on the Pembroke & Tenby as well. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2019 Both Carmarthen and Aberystwyth Manors worked that route. The GW's answer to the Cambrian's axle loadings pre-war was the 43xx and the Dukedogs; Manors were not particularly developed with that route in mind but became associated with it post war after some bridge improvements and the installation of the Aber triangle as RJS has said. Neath (Court Sart) shed had a couple in it's last years, and I have no idea what they were used for; the nearest blue routes were miles away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long John Silver Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 There were small allocations at Banbury, Leamington Spa and Tyseley in the Midlands, and in West Wales, Neyland usually had one on the books in the 1950s. For a small class they were allocated quite widely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Long John Silver said: There were small allocations at Banbury, Leamington Spa and Tyseley in the Midlands, and in West Wales, Neyland usually had one on the books in the 1950s. For a small class they were allocated quite widely. For some reason, Llanelly (87F), acquired three in 1964. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbowilts Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Fat Controller said: For some reason, Llanelly (87F), acquired three in 1964. If IRC that was when Landore closed to steam? Tim T Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 1 hour ago, timbowilts said: If IRC that was when Landore closed to steam? Tim T Landore shut in June 1961 for re-building; I wonder if this was more to do with the closure of other sheds, further west, such as Carmarthen, Neyland and Goodwick? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 On 23/06/2019 at 14:31, B15nac said: ...has anyone used 3d printed axles on a Bachmann manor or Bachmann split chassis to see if this helps the running? ... This can only potentially improve the running if the existing plastic axle muffs have failed. If the driving wheelsets are still solidly in one piece and the gears are undamaged, basic advice would be leave well alone. Clean the wheelset stub axles and axle recesses with IPA, and lightly relubricate with a plastics compatible light grease. (You may well find plenty of this in the split frame gap, just requiring a little relocation.) Provided there is still metal plating on all the contacts in the conduction path these mechanisms pick up well enough, and the motor is a good unit. If the mechanism is well worn and pick up is impaired then I would suggest trying the conversion to a Grange mechanism to get a current standard drive in it. You should be able to get 'Repower Manor' running way ahead of any RTR production (assuming ready supply of a Grange as a mechanism donor). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rising Standards Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 (edited) Posts pointing out that Manors are not mandatory for modelling most GWR routes make a reasonable point, but aren't really answering Neil's question. He would like a Manor, and can you blame him? If you can't bring yourself to carve up Hornby's excellent Grange as a chassis donor for a Mainline/Bachmann Manor body, but you can land on a cheap example of their decidedly lower quality Hall: Fitting Grange wheelsets with the brass bearings removed Cutting away the front of the chassis block Cutting a section out at the back to bring the tender drawbar screw under the cab Filing around the bogie to give it clearance on curves ...is the bulk of what's involved to get you the result in the attached images. If it sounds less than simple that's because it isn't, at least with my bodging abilities. I now have a 28XX tender in place of the one from the Hall which further improves the look. It could do with some better boiler fittings next, then a crash course for me in learning to paint, and finally the fictional identity Drayton Manor so that I still want to keep using it when the inevitable super detail Manor is announced. Edited June 25, 2019 by Rising Standards Clarified post regarding body origin. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 25, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 25, 2019 Sorry, mate, that's a Grange. The boiler is the standard no.1 common to Hall and Grange (also Saint, Star, and 28xx/2884, and incorrect for a Manor, which has a smaller and shorter no.14 standard boiler. No parts of the Hall are suitable for a Manor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rising Standards Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Apologies, I should have clarified that the recipe is Manor body + Hall chassis/mechanism + Grange driving wheels. Post amended accordingly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 25, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 25, 2019 Ah, now it makes sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B15nac Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 Sounds good how about the gears on the axle on the Grange wheel set is that the same as the halls? Regards Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rising Standards Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Yep, the final drive gear on the Grange axle is the same as the Hall's. When removing the bearings it was necessary to slightly score the inside of the wheels where they meet the axle to create a line that could be matched back up afterwards, keeping the quartering correct. If I was mad enough to do another I'd perhaps try Large Prairie wheels, which should also be the right diameter and don't have bearings fitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B15nac Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 OK how did you attach the chassis to the body is it still screwed? Plus what motion did you use the halls? Regards Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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