Rising Standards Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 It's been a while since I did it, but if I remember rightly the back of the body on the Hall fits into a horizontal slot at the back of the chassis and the front screws in under the smokebox. I took the same approach, using the same slot at the back of the shortened chassis and building up strips of plastic to get the one that would sit in the slot at the right height. At the front I glued another piece of plastic underneath the smokebox and glued a small nut to the top of it, then passed a bolt up through the original screw hole to tighten into the nut. If the nut ever comes unstuck I'll have a problem! The connecting rods are from the Hall, but had to be thinned down at the back to allow the Grange crankpins to be fully tightened and let the wheels turn freely. I have a feeling the coupling rods are the Grange ones, as the crankpin arrangements for the Hall wheels are different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B15nac Posted June 26, 2019 Author Share Posted June 26, 2019 Thanks for your advice this sounds like a very good modification do you have any more photos of yours? I'm going to give this a go I think Kind regards Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted June 26, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2019 I'm not sure about the obsession with getting a perfectly good Grange chassis and then hacking it about. If you are capable of such work, then why not buy a Comet chassis kit and sort the errant chassis of the Manor out that way? It has got to be cheaper than buying a complete Grange and then potentially throwing the body and tender away. However, all this under the skirts modification fails to address the issue of, what is in today's terms, is a poor body moulding. If Miss Prism points out the boiler and firebox as areas of improvement, then I for one will take that as gospel! Realistically, at normal viewing distances when operating on a 4 mm scale railway, I doubt that many would notice the anomalies of the body work. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said: I'm not sure about the obsession with getting a perfectly good Grange chassis and then hacking it about. If you are capable of such work, then why not buy a Comet chassis kit and sort the errant chassis of the Manor out that way? It has got to be cheaper than buying a complete Grange and then potentially throwing the body and tender away. However, all this under the skirts modification fails to address the issue of, what is in today's terms, is a poor body moulding. If Miss Prism points out the boiler and firebox as areas of improvement, then I for one will take that as gospel! Realistically, at normal viewing distances when operating on a 4 mm scale railway, I doubt that many would notice the anomalies of the body work. I think the undersize cab windows and overly boxy firebox do rather jar on the Manor but not so badly as on the 43XX and 2251 class. Many of us find modifying a solid chassis block like the Hornby Hall/ Grange is well within our abilities and tool kit of a couple of screwdrivers a file and a hacksaw and gives a solid reliable loco for pulling trains with. Big trains which make the loco slip on starting despite added weight. Mine have lasted for 30 years in some cases with only occasional oiling. On the other hand I have several chassis "kits" in my scrap drawer and got rid of several more on eBay as they have proved unreliable in service. I may have a Wills white metal chassis under a 61XX with an X04 motor, but that's it. The solid chassis has the axles in alignment, good solid crank pins and wont twist if you drop it. I have great respect for the folk who build these kit chassis but how many of them regularly struggle up 1 in 36 grades with 6 or 7 bogies on like my modified Hornby chassis locos do? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said: I'm not sure about the obsession with getting a perfectly good Grange chassis and then hacking it about. If you are capable of such work, then why not buy a Comet chassis kit and sort the errant chassis of the Manor out that way? It has got to be cheaper than buying a complete Grange and then potentially throwing the body and tender away... I would reply that it comes down to individual priorities. My own priority is operation, so getting a reliable mechanism into a desireable subject is what truly matters. I have purchased and 'disembodied' scores of mechanisms - many of them those GW models that have that happy combination of useful mechanism dimensions and cheap availability - for redeployment into other RTR and kit bodies for exactly this reason. I don't throw away bodies, tenders, and other off-falls, but sell them. The lack of manufacturer spares works for me: every messed up detailing job, repaint, dropped soldering iron, loco plummet to floor event, means there is demand. You think the kit route cheaper? Quite often by a combination of careful purchase, and the resale of all the off-falls - including the old replaced mechanism and the box - I finish up ahead on the deal. Not just cheaper than building a kit chassis, the end result is a better running model and a net profit... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 26, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2019 3 hours ago, Happy Hippo said: I'm not sure about the obsession with getting a perfectly good Grange chassis and then hacking it about. If you are capable of such work, then why not buy a Comet chassis kit and sort the errant chassis of the Manor out that way? It has got to be cheaper than buying a complete Grange and then potentially throwing the body and tender away. However, all this under the skirts modification fails to address the issue of, what is in today's terms, is a poor body moulding. If Miss Prism points out the boiler and firebox as areas of improvement, then I for one will take that as gospel! Realistically, at normal viewing distances when operating on a 4 mm scale railway, I doubt that many would notice the anomalies of the body work. Some people might, while quite capable of building the Comet chassis, be drawn to the Grange mech as a shortcut to get a model in operation quickly. My build time for a Comet coach, less involved than a chassis kit for an outside cylinder 4-6-0, is 2 months, and my instinct would be to allow for 4 if I was doing such a chassis build. Another point is that it doesn't save much if anything in cash terms, as you have to provide wheels, motor, and gears, plus at least factor in tools, solder, paint and so on. I am planning a SE chassis build for an 1854 pannier, but this loco is not essential to my timetable and I can regard it as a modelling project in it's own right. There is no rush to get it into service, and I can relax and enjoy the build in my own time, and take satisfaction from whatever degree of success I achieve, but my main interest is in the operation of trains to the 1955 Rule Book in a realistic setting. If I wanted a Manor to run on my layout, which is what the OP and many of the others on this topic are after, a more immediate solution is needed than building the Comet chassis, which in any case will be incapable of operation on setrack curvature, ruling it out for some in the first place. David has a valid point about the reliability of kit chassis; solid block chassis are bombproof reliable and will last you years. Not sure I'm completely on board with him re haulage capacity; modern RTR is not perfect in this respect and I'm sure Tony Wright would point out that his kit locos haul 14 coach expresses of heavy Comet kit coaches at scale speeds on Little Bytham without difficulty, outperforming their RTR equivalents. But none of my old kit chassis (K's and Westward). are still running and have been binned; wear and wheel quartering issues have seen them off years ago, not that RTR Mainline split chassis did any better... A Hornby Grange chassis and mech will give you many years of service, so long as it is handled sensibly, driven properly, looked after, and not overloaded. The motor will fail eventually but is a throwaway replaceable item. Using chassis in this way will lead to a wasteful acquisition of bodies you never use, but some of the Baccy 57xx bodies I've acquired in this way have donated parts to upgrading other models, which offsets it. While not condoning waste, which is destroying the planet, I think one can become too hung up on this sort of thing. After all, if you don't revive your Mainline Manor with a new chassis, you still have the same number of surplus bodies as if you do! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 5 hours ago, Happy Hippo said: I'm not sure about the obsession with getting a perfectly good Grange chassis and then hacking it about. If you are capable of such work, then why not buy a Comet chassis kit and sort the errant chassis of the Manor out that way? It has got to be cheaper than buying a complete Grange and then potentially throwing the body and tender away. However, all this under the skirts modification fails to address the issue of, what is in today's terms, is a poor body moulding. If Miss Prism points out the boiler and firebox as areas of improvement, then I for one will take that as gospel! Realistically, at normal viewing distances when operating on a 4 mm scale railway, I doubt that many would notice the anomalies of the body work. I totally agree. I have nine Manors in various states of repair. Five or so work perfectly. The rest are getting Comet chassis as and when. Yes the body may be a bit off. But until somebody makes a modern version it's the only game in town I'm afraid. Unless you can find a Mitchell kit and spent a few hundred pounds on it and all the bits.... Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 26, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2019 I think we can all agree that a decent RTR offering to modern standards is an overdue and desirable development, but the issue has been argued to death many times, a process that I have contributed to. In the meantime if you want a Manor this topic has delineated the current alternatives. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 7 hours ago, The Johnster said: A Hornby Grange chassis and mech will give you many years of service Except the ones that are showing signs of mazak rot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B15nac Posted June 29, 2019 Author Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) Still with hall wheels that I'm about to Change for Grange ones Edited June 29, 2019 by B15nac 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted June 29, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 29, 2019 54 minutes ago, B15nac said: Still with hall wheels that I'm about to Change for Grange ones Getting there, but looks like an episode of Pimp My Ride at the moment 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 29, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 29, 2019 The Grange wheels should sort the ride height. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B15nac Posted June 29, 2019 Author Share Posted June 29, 2019 It's a lot easier getting the hall chassis to fit than the Granges less to cut off an narrower motor etc so fits nicely. Hopefully the small driveing wheels will bring the ride hight down to normal Regards Neil 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rising Standards Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 Blimey, you don't hang about! Sorry, I haven't really got any photos from the build process, but I'll try and get you a few from mine as it is now at the start of next week, including body mounting arrangements. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B15nac Posted June 30, 2019 Author Share Posted June 30, 2019 On a set of prairie wheels at the moment Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B15nac Posted July 7, 2019 Author Share Posted July 7, 2019 All completed an I highly recommended this modification in my eyes. Runs really well in the end I went for Hornby prairie wheels. 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forester Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 I'd take bets on a new Manor being announced within two years. It's been consistently high on all the wishlists forever. There's a parallel with the Lord Nelson, where Bachmann didn't want to invest in a replacement but Hornby held back for fear that one was in the pipeline. Eventually it became clear it wasn't and Hornby filled the resulting large gap with considerable success. I would bet on Hornby repeating that with a new Manor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted July 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2019 34 minutes ago, Forester said: I'd take bets on a new Manor being announced within two years. It's been consistently high on all the wishlists forever. I would bet on Hornby repeating that with a new Manor. I've been taking bets on this happening for the best part of a decade. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 Is there a list of the Moguls who donated their bits to the Manors? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted August 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2019 6 hours ago, Miss Prism said: Is there a list of the Moguls who donated their bits to the Manors? “Great Western Moguls & Prairies” by David Maidment (Pen and Sword) lists the withdrawal dates of all the class members and notes which had their “wheels and motion used for construction of Granges and Manors”. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 (edited) Hi all, There is one way to make the Mainline and Bachman split chassis run better. Replace the pick ups with old Hornby ones. Then you can oil the old bearing/pick up surfaces to you hearts content. Helps stop wear and tear on the surfaces and give a far better pick and smoother running. Just a quick help for those who do not want to butcher/rebuild an original chassis. I have not done this on a manor but have successfully done this on the Mainline/Bachmann 4mt locos. There should be little difference in the method to do this. This is my post here on how I did it. Edited August 3, 2019 by cypherman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 (edited) On 02/08/2019 at 19:33, Miss Prism said: Is there a list of the Moguls who donated their bits to the Manors? It was virtually all of the 43XXs and a few random 53XXs. Obviously all in those number ranges would have been converted eventually. The later ones weren't used and the only early withdrawal of those was 6315 which was involved in the Sun Bank Halt derailment. Details here. http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_260.htm http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/260_4300det.htm Jason Edited August 3, 2019 by Steamport Southport Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted August 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2019 I went with the Mitchell kit for my Manor (along with a Hornby grange tender). While it was certainly a complex kit it went together very well, and in my opinion resulted in a loco that looks rather good. (Especially as this was my first attempt at rolling a boiler. I still havent got got round to fitting the hand rails and finishing off the motion though, but my modelling always does drop down to not a lot once it gets warm... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: Details here. http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_260.htm http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/260_4300det.htm Thanks Jason. I found those too after a little search. The first of those two lists does give the 20 donors to the first 20 Manors (although not in a one-to-one format, as in the Maidment book). The 80 Grange donors can be surmised from the second listing (predominantly the early 43xx members, as you note), but, interestingly, John Daniel's Grange page states "Wheelsets for the first batch of thirty 'Granges' came from a pool of reconditioned parts obtained from engine numbers 4300/1/4/5/6/8-11/13-15/17/23/24/27-34/36/38-41/44-48/50/51", which implies that the records for the other 50 Granges are not so good, but it seems that later Grange lots did take on the Mogul wheelsets when first built. (Maybe the Lawrence Waters Grange book gives better detail.) In later days, many locos had taken on larger-boss Collett wheels, and I understand there were instances (and certainly in preservation) where a mixture of small-boss and large-boss wheels could be seen on the same loco. The first 20 Manors appear to be more consistent and tended to keep their original small-boss Mogul wheels, but there were exceptions in later years. Edited August 4, 2019 by Miss Prism Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jack Benson Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 On 7 July 2019 at 18:44, B15nac said: All completed an I highly recommended this modification in my eyes. Runs really well in the end I went for Hornby prairie wheels. Very well done, you proved your point. Thank you for sharing with the community. JB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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