RMweb Gold 46444 Posted May 2, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 2, 2010 Evening, Can anyone tell me if signalling exists on the Looe Valley Line? Or is it operated through a token system? I'm particularly interested in the 'St.Keyne Wishing Well Halt' area as I'm in the process of building a layout based on this halt. Thanks. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted May 2, 2010 Share Posted May 2, 2010 No signals around St Keyne. There is a token for the section between Liskeard and Coombe and a one-train staff for Coombe to Looe. Coombe Junction is operated by the crew using a ground frame so no signals there. Don't recall if there are any on the branch at Liskeard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted May 2, 2010 Share Posted May 2, 2010 Don't think there are at the Liskeard end either (except where the line links to the main line) - there used to be a cute little box at Coombe Jcn till the 80s though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted May 2, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 2, 2010 No signals around St Keyne. There is a token for the section between Liskeard and Coombe and a one-train staff for Coombe to Looe. Coombe Junction is operated by the crew using a ground frame so no signals there. Don't recall if there are any on the branch at Liskeard. Thanks for the info. I thought as much and makes things even easier. From memmory and fots couldn't remember seeing any. Cheers. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 The 1912 plan in Clarke - GW Stations Vol 2 gives a home and starter at Looe, when the line was still independent although worked by the GW. No sign of a signal box, though. A photo shows the starter there in 1935. Wonder where they were controlled from? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 3, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2010 Once upon a time ... the Looe branch had a number of signalboxes, Liskeard Branch Signal Box sttod at the end of the branch platform at Liskeard, it had a 17 lever frame and was closed in 1964 to be replaced by the present(?) ground frame. Coombe Jcn had a signalbox from c.1900, it received a new lever frame in 1956 (25 levers) and was replaced by ground frames in May 1981. Looe Signal Box was a lean-to hut with an 8 lever, ground level, frame (I think the nameplate was about the same length as the building ) at the goods yard end of the platform and was closed in March 1964 when the section between Coombe Jcn and Looe was reduced to One Train Working with a Train Staff (as it still is). This building replaced an older signalbox structure in 1920. I presume (big presumption) that there is probably now a 'fixed distant' board on the approach to Looe and presumably the same on the approaches to Coombe Jcn and Liskeard although I haven't been anywhere near the branch for a good many years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted May 3, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2010 Thanks again for the replies. This has made my job even easier as I'm in the process of building a small N gauge layout set around St. Keyne Wishing Well Halt-No signalling. The star of the show is going to be the Dapol/Kernow 153329 'St Ives Bay Belle' and a Farish Arriva 150 for company. Just wonderiing as well whether any PW trains ever make it down the branch? Guess 67's would be out due to weight and would be left to top and tailed 66's. Just a thought! Cheers. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Don't think there are at the Liskeard end either (except where the line links to the main line) - there used to be a cute little box at Coombe Jcn till the 80s though. I remember seeing that box in action in the 1970s when I had friends living in Liskeard. It did make me wonder how many branch lines wouldn't have needed to close if we hadn't felt the need for fully manned boxes effectively to change one point on a line occupied by a single train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted May 4, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 4, 2010 There is a fixed distant board approaching Looe. There is also a 5mph speed restriction sign there as the train approaches a dead-end around a fairly sharp left hand bend with limited forward vision and there is the level crossing at which trains often slow to almost a stop at the same location. No signals beyond Liskeard these days though Coombe Junction used to sport some semaphores which seemed quite impressive in that very rural location. There might still be some extant signal posts beside the line from the days when it did have fixed signalling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted May 4, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 4, 2010 Thanks again for the replies. This line has so much potential as a modern GWR branchline, though unfortunately without the freight traffic. I'll start posting some entries on my blog soon. Cheers. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Mark, the line still has freight traffic, cement still runs to Moorswater Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 I remember seeing that box in action in the 1970s when I had friends living in Liskeard. It did make me wonder how many branch lines wouldn't have needed to close if we hadn't felt the need for fully manned boxes effectively to change one point on a line occupied by a single train. In defence the branch isn't always occupied by a single train, the Moorswater freight generally arrives/departs from the works there whilst the passenger service is going to/from Looe. And the signal box in the original track layout allowed for loco haulage of the passenger train as there was a runround at Coombe. It would certainly have been a fairly quiet place to work though by 1981! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted May 4, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 4, 2010 I remember seeing that box in action in the 1970s when I had friends living in Liskeard. It did make me wonder how many branch lines wouldn't have needed to close if we hadn't felt the need for fully manned boxes effectively to change one point on a line occupied by a single train. Most branch lines which could be converted to "sidings" were, so the answer will be "few, if any". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Not sure about that. Gerry Fiennes made the point that a lot of routes went straight from fully staffed and presumably fully signalled to complete closure during the Beeching era. I think rationalisation to sidings, along with bus shelter stations etc, was more of a 70s thing by which time almost all the routes that were going to close had already gone. The explanation may be to do with freight. Quite a few stations etc that closed to passengers before the Beeching era retained their goods services and I think the idea that local freight was dying hadn't really registered with British Rail in the early 60s - witness the number of diesels purchased that were only any use for branch and pickup freights. So if the expectation was that freight would survive even if passenger services disappeared then the tendency would be to leave all the loops, signals, loading bays and goods office in place. Beeching I think saw which way freight was going too, witness his setting up of Freightliner, but seems not to have followed this through to ask the question "what would this line need to have if we only ran a basic DMU passenger service?". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted May 4, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 4, 2010 Hi Edwin, if the staff were retained it was for a good reason, plenty of branches were converted to sidings to cut costs, and the OP mentions the 1970s not Beeching Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted May 4, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 4, 2010 With respect a fair number of Beeching Report cutbacks were not implemented until the 1970s including many line closures. I don't have actual dates for the abolition of fixed signalling on the Looe branch other than at Coombe Junction which has already been covered. I do remember a happy couple of hours spent watching trains (most of which were up on Moorswater Viaduct) from Coombe platform and the clanking of signal levers from the 'box which announced the arrival and departure of the branch trains (which all came into the platform in those days, no need to save precious seconds not serving it) back in 1970. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted May 4, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 4, 2010 Thanks again for all of your replies. Thanks Martyn for reminding me about the Moorswater traffic. I guess what I meant was there are no regular freight (if any) workings south of Coombe Junction which would add operational interest. Do you or have you any fots of engineers trains on the branch in recent years? Not going into the Beeching arena all I will say is lines like this have survived for a purpose and I'm glad they did. Yes, highly rationalised but the're providing a service for locals and tourists alike. Over recent years organisations and train operators have invested money in services and infrastructure to make the line more appealing. Take a look at St Keyne Wishing Well and Sandplace for example. I'm not sure if it has ever occured but the Looe Valley Line always strikes me as having potential for running steam specials i.e 14xx/57xx with a one or two carriages. Wishfull thinking! Cheers. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Would be really great if you could run an autotrain on it, but I think there'd be a problem with the safety case... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsOatcake Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 There are signals on the Looe branch. These may not colour light or semaphore as there are stop boards at various locations. Or don't the numerous stop boards count? they do with the HMRI and the HSE Some images of the cement tanks running round at Liskeard Moorswater tanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 4, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 4, 2010 Thanks again for all of your replies. Thanks Martyn for reminding me about the Moorswater traffic. I guess what I meant was there are no regular freight (if any) workings south of Coombe Junction which would add operational interest. Do you or have you any fots of engineers trains on the branch in recent years? Not going into the Beeching arena all I will say is lines like this have survived for a purpose and I'm glad they did. Yes, highly rationalised but the're providing a service for locals and tourists alike. Cheers. Mark Looe was reduced to nothing more than a dead end with the end of the freight service, I suspect that was in 1963, when most of the signalling was removed although the 'box lasted until the following March. The WR took a very different course from much of the rest of the railway and rationalisation of signalling, including total closure of signalboxes, was taking place on branches from the mid-60s onwards (there were of course some much earlier examples where lines had been reduced to goods only status, and even a few where lines had been reduced to passenger trains only). Once the need for infrastructure, and staff, had gone the Western was usually pretty adept at dispensing with both. Thus I think it's fair to say the changes on various branches in the West of England reflected the change in passenger train traction as soon as overall circumstances allowed. St Ives 'box went in 1965, Falmouth in 1966, Newquay underwent successive prunings in the mid '60s and early '70s before final closure in 1987, Fowey lost its goods yard connection in 1965 and the 'box was closed in 1968, Bodmin General 'box was closed in 1967 after the passenger service was out of the way. So if I'm counting correctly the only ex GWR branches west of the Tamar which weren't rationalised and kept open were Helston (closed totally 1964) and Fowey (passenger service withdrawn 1965?) - all the others were, it appears, rationalised as far as practicable in order to reduce costs. On the former Southern lines in the west things were little different, Gunnislake went in 1968 (2 years after the branch was cut back from Callington, Padstow 'box was closed in January 1966 although the line survived - I believe - into the following year. Some of the North Devon and Cornwall lines retained full signalling until closure but clearly in those cases it was not thought that premature 'box closure was worth the cost although Ilfracombe 'box was closed in 1967, 3 years before the line closed. And Plymouth Friary lost its one remaining 'box in 1966; other 'boxes on branches to the east had already gone with the lines reduced to sidings. As far as purchase of loads of diesels is concerned I don't think there's much correlation with branchline infrastructure. Locos were ordered in large numbers based on simple formulae that x number of diesels = y number of steam locos or that z number of diesels were required to operate a certain timetable. Most of that was decided, and the locos ordered, long before Beeching arrived and plenty of diesels were obtained to operate passenger services, let alone freight, that had vanished within a handful of years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 With respect a fair number of Beeching Report cutbacks were not implemented until the 1970s including many line closures. I don't have actual dates for the abolition of fixed signalling on the Looe branch other than at Coombe Junction which has already been covered. I do remember a happy couple of hours spent watching trains (most of which were up on Moorswater Viaduct) from Coombe platform and the clanking of signal levers from the 'box which announced the arrival and departure of the branch trains (which all came into the platform in those days, no need to save precious seconds not serving it) back in 1970. My real point was that there seemed to be very little attempt at the time of Beeching to see if lines could be operated more economically rather than just taking their operating methods and costs as a given and then deciding to close them if their revenues wouldn't pay for all that. In the rest of Europe- Germany comes to mind particularly- lightly used lines were operated completely safely with far simpler operating methods. Mind you I don't think finding ways of maintaining railways as a signifcant competitor to road transport was at all what Marples had in mind. There are plenty of stories of BR managers who suggested economies to keep lines open being dismissed out of hand- that wasn't the agenda. It's slightly miraculous that Liskeard-Looe managed to survive at all though I'm obviously glad that it did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 5, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 5, 2010 My real point was that there seemed to be very little attempt at the time of Beeching to see if lines could be operated more economically rather than just taking their operating methods and costs as a given and then deciding to close them if their revenues wouldn't pay for all that. In the rest of Europe- Germany comes to mind particularly- lightly used lines were operated completely safely with far simpler operating methods. Mind you I don't think finding ways of maintaining railways as a signifcant competitor to road transport was at all what Marples had in mind. There are plenty of stories of BR managers who suggested economies to keep lines open being dismissed out of hand- that wasn't the agenda. It's slightly miraculous that Liskeard-Looe managed to survive at all though I'm obviously glad that it did. I think - as I tried to demonstrate above with what happened in the West of England - that there was such an effort but I think it's also generally fair to say that it mainly took place on lines which for a variety of reasons were not going to be closed or which survived attempts to close them. Equally there was a devil abroad on BR whose sole aim centred around closure and lines were undoubtedly closed which should never have gone. That was done to 'save money' and in some cases it probably did save more than the alternative of reducing the line to a 'basic railway' (a term which meant different things to different people). Similarly I have no doubts whatsoever from what could be observed at the time, and from what I saw inside the fence from the late '60s onwards, that some parts of the railway were loathe to change anything and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century. The ultimate expression of that was the 'organising for quality' and emergence of the 'business-led railway' (i.e. the sectors) in the 1990s when - finally - some of the older practices were at long last nailed. But then even that change brought forth some remarkably byzantine ways of doing things. Interestingly from the mid '90s onwards I came into almost daily contact with SNCF and in many respects it was like going back to the BR of the 1960s. Lots of outward signs of impressive looking change and gloss fronting some incredibly expensive managerial and operating methods & practices; little wonder that SNCF was near a standing joke in the French business community and regarded with total amazement by management consultants, especially those hailing from the USofA. DB by contrast was much more active in moving forward but still had some of the expensive habits Beeching had dealt with on BR three decades earlier although NS was at last tackling that sort of expense and waste. Sorry for nicking the thread, and as already noted at least the Looe branch is still there - a largely basic railway for over 40 years now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted May 6, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 6, 2010 OK, having just read this thread, here's the situation with the Looe branch: The line from Liskeard branch platform to the north-end GF at Coombe Jct station, to the north of the platform, is worked by electric token, controlled remotedly by the Liskeard signaller. The line from the junction itself at Coombe to Looe is worked on the One Train Working with Train Staff regulations. The train staff is normally kept in Liskeard box overnight, but each day when the branch service is operating, it is issued to train crew, as both the token and the train staff are required to operate the TMO GF at Coombe. Once the branch unit has passed over the junction and is the Looe-side of the junction points, the junction points are normalised and just the One Train Working staff withdrawn from the GF, the token being left in, so that the section from Liskeard to Coombe north-end GF is clear for any freight movements. When the Looe unit returns to Coombe ex-Looe, it stops on the approach to the GF, so that the guard can get out and operate the GF (with signalman's permission), to allow the unit into Coombe platform. The Moorswater cement train generally runs about once a week, or twice if demand requires it. There have been very few instances of ballast trains down the branch, especially between Coombe and Looe in recent years, although I believe there were some a few years back, when the most recent sections of steel sleeper relaying were carried out. At the present time, much of the track is quite modern, and the local PW generally use road-rail machines and other 'portable' type plant. As for steam, well, it isn't secret any more, because there was a piece in one of the steam magazines recently, but there are plans in September for 9466 and a Class 20 to top and tail some (short-ish! ) charter trains on a couple of Sundays, this is in connection with GW175. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted May 6, 2010 Share Posted May 6, 2010 When the Looe unit returns to Coombe ex-Looe, it stops on the approach to the GF, so that the guard can get out and operate the GF (with signalman's permission), to allow the unit into Coombe platform. And, at least when I observed it, the guard reversed the point, and the driver drove over the point with no guard on board before the guard put it back normal. All this without a DOO radio in sight... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted May 6, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 6, 2010 Evening, Thanks for all of your replies. Captain, some good info there. Thankyou. Now you tell me the line's got steel sleepers! I've just laid all wooden sleepered track!!!!!! Nevermind, I've also turned the platform around 180 degrees and placed it on the other side of the line. As for the steam specials later on in the year I think thats a good move and will hopefully tempt more people onto the branch-saying that it's a shame it's a 94xx and not a 45/55xx! Cheers. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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