Midland in Tewkesbury

[Northroader]

Here’s a painting by my favourite watercolour artist, Roland Hilder, otherwise, if you do a search for Tewkesbury Abbey Mill - images, you’ll find loads of the setting, as it is very picturesque.

[PaulBee]

Thanks for posting the painting of the mill. Brings back fond memories of my old home town.

[figworthy]

On 03/07/2019 at 20:00, barrowroad said:

Hi Tricky,

I'm not sure I can answer your question but the end elevation of the Borough Mill has what looks like moveable pipework up the side of the building with a box section at the top end. Is this a vacuum unloading arrangement for taking grain off the barges?

Robin

 

 

Much later than Tricky's period, in the mid 80s I did see barges delivering grain (imported via Avonmouth I think) at the mill.  They were on the opposite side of mill to the bridge.  They were being unloaded via an elevator system (rather than a vacuum).  I got the impression that the unloading facility was far from new, so it could well be that it went back a considerable number of years.   Unfortuately the photos I took at the time have vanished.

 

Adrian

[colin penfold]

Probably would have been too grainy anyway 

 

H Warburton

[81A Oldoak]

This is an excellent choice of subject. Like many others, I have considered this as a subject for a small 7mm scale layout. There are some superb photos in Volume 3 of Neil Parkhouse's epic series covering the railways of Gloucestershire and the Forest of Dean. Indeed, it might be said that I have made a start of sorts. Here is my rendition of a Minerva GWR 57XX 0-6-0PT as 7788 while running on the Upton-upon-Severn branch in GWR livery in 1961.

 

CK

 

PS I am a born and bred Bristolian who is still occasionally unable to distinguish between a good idea and a good ideal. 

[Tricky]

Ok, here we go.....Tewks Mk III. Of course, you were all quietly aware that  Tewks Mk I and II neither had a run-round, even once connected up with Monk’s Gate. So, to quieten the sniggering at the back, have a ganders at this....

 

[Tricky]

I’ve taken the plunge in getting the trackwork ordered from C&L, and now that I’ve got the B6 templates to hand, have sketched out the track plan full size on the future baseboard. 

Don’t know if you can see this too clearly. The line that winds off down to the left hand flour mill I think might be on a gentle slope just to avoid my pet dislike of billiard table flat baseboards, plus the cut out for the quay of course provides more changes in elevation. 

I think I’m pleased with this so far and I can now really begin to imagine the overall look. I may well make mock-ups of the main buildings just to double check the composition. 

Your thoughts most welcome...! 

[Dave Hunt]

It's my understanding that B6 turnouts were a post-grouping design and that the Midland would have used 1 in 6 common crossings together with 12 ft switches, either loose heeled or after about 1900 ish possibly sprung heeled. I'm not an expert on track, though, and depend for advice on Crimson Rambler, who has made a study of Midland trackwork. Maybe contacting him would be worthwhile?

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

Did not Slater's do templates for Midland pointwork with 1:6 crossings at one time? - plain turnouts, slips, etc.? Can't see them on their website.

[Tricky]

7 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

It's my understanding that B6 turnouts were a post-grouping design and that the Midland would have used 1 in 6 common crossings together with 12 ft switches, either loose heeled or after about 1900 ish possibly sprung heeled. I'm not an expert on track, though, and depend for advice on Crimson Rambler, who has made a study of Midland trackwork. Maybe contacting him would be worthwhile?

 

Dave

Thanks Dave, I may well make contact with Crimson Rambler.  Do you reckon the differences in design are significant?

[Dave Hunt]

Stephen, I think that Adrian did the templates that you refer to many years ago.

 

Tricky, my knowledge of Midland track, such as it is, all comes from Adrian (AKA Rambler) and I'm making my pointwork on his advice. I'm fairly sure that there are significant differences between what the Midland would have used and the later 'standard' B6s and that Midland timbering differed too. It is also worth noting (again this is from Adrian) that the Midland used 30 ft plain track panels with particular sleeper spacing, which I think differed from other companies and the LMS. The bottom line, as the saying goes, is that had I not had Adrian's advice and expertise the track and point work I am making would have been far from correct so I think that it would be well worth your while contacting him. Either PM him or if you would rather email him, PM me and I'll send you his address.

 

Dave

[Dave Hunt]

Tricky

5 hours ago, Tricky said:

Thanks Dave, I may well make contact with Crimson Rambler.  Do you reckon the differences in design are significant?

 

Another thought (two in one day - am I improving or what?) is that MR switch and crossing drawings are available from the MR Study Centre. I have the 12 ft switch and 1 in 7 crossing ones for yours and my era of modelling and will email you copies if you like but it may be worth looking in the catalogue and/or contacting Dave Harris directly to see whether there are any 1 in 6 crossing ones available.

 

Dave

[t-b-g]

There is an 1895 drawing showing sleeper spacings on a 30ft length for the Midland on the oldpway.info website but not a lot on points. I recall an article on modelling Midland P. Way, probably by Bob Essery in either Modeller's Backtrack or possibly MRJ that had much detail that would help but I can't immediately remember where to find it.

 

In 7mm, it is worth it. Real timbering through points varied quite a lot from one company to another and although many people won't know which company it is just by looking at the track, they will notice that it is not like all the others they see.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

although many people won't know which company it is just by looking at the track, 

 

... you the builder will know and that's what usually matters most.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... you the builder will know and that's what usually matters most.

 

Absolutely. Well done for mentioning it as for a moment, I had forgotten one of my basic "rules". Do it please yourself, not others.

 

I often feel that trackwork is very much neglected by modellers. Many wouldn't dream of using "generic" locos, wagons or signals but will use "generic" track. There are some very well known and highly regarded prototype based layouts around that should have completely different track. In the period they are modelled, they should have a mixture of flat bottomed rail, and bullhead,  not all bullhead. It matters to some but clearly not all layout builders.

 

Particularly for pre-grouping, using 9ft sleepers instead of the later 8' 6" is often neglected because it hasn't been available ready to stick down.

 

Getting exactly the right sort of chairs isn't always easy unless you want to start commissioning manufacturers or producing your own but at least you can choose 2, 3 or 4 hole types Sleepering to match the prototype is easier and does make a difference. Length and type of checkrails is another one. The GNR used mostly a 4 chair check rail and the flare at each end was curved on a continuous radius to the end (at certain periods at least) rather than an angled bend that is usually seen.

 

I have had several 4mm layouts with "correct" sleepering for GCR/MSLR and GNR practice on pointwork and to be honest, until I draw attention to it, nobody has ever noticed but I have the satisfaction of having done my best to get it right.

 

I have just started my first 7mm layout and have cut some of my own sleepers as nobody does the 16" wide timber used by the GNR. All the plain track will be to GNR 30ft drawings, with really odd looking sleeper spacing! as it has some really close together and some really wide apart.

 

That will certainly be worth doing in 7mm as far as I am concerned.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by t-b-g

[Tricky]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

Absolutely. Well done for mentioning it as for a moment, I had forgotten one of my basic "rules". Do it please yourself, not others.

 

I often feel that trackwork is very much neglected by modellers. Many wouldn't dream of using "generic" locos, wagons or signals but will use "generic" track. There are some very well known and highly regarded prototype based layouts around that should have completely different track. In the period they are modelled, they should have a mixture of flat bottomed rail, and bullhead,  not all bullhead. It matters to some but clearly not all layout builders.

 

Particularly for pre-grouping, using 9ft sleepers instead of the later 8' 6" is often neglected because it hasn't been available ready to stick down.

 

Getting exactly the right sort of chairs isn't always easy unless you want to start commissioning manufacturers or producing your own but at least you can choose 2, 3 or 4 hole types Sleepering to match the prototype is easier and does make a difference. Length and type of checkrails is another one. The GNR used mostly a 4 chair check rail and the flare at each end was curved on a continuous radius to the end (at certain periods at least) rather than an angled bend that is usually seen.

 

I have had several 4mm layouts with "correct" sleepering for GCR/MSLR and GNR practice on pointwork and to be honest, until I draw attention to it, nobody has ever noticed but I have the satisfaction of having done my best to get it right.

 

I have just started my first 7mm layout and have cut some of my own sleepers as nobody does the 16" wide timber used by the GNR. All the plain track will be to GNR 30ft drawings, with really odd looking sleeper spacing! as it has some really close together and some really wide apart.

 

That will certainly be worth doing in 7mm as far as I am concerned.

 

 

 

 

Do you have a thread on here of your 7mm layout? 

[t-b-g]

58 minutes ago, Tricky said:

Do you have a thread on here of your 7mm layout? 

 

No I haven't yet and may not. I have started one or two threads in the past for projects that never saw completion or are still work in progress. It always seems a bit embarrassing to start a thread on a project and then see it dwindle to a halt.

 

I work on so many different projects for others, either as a paid job or helping friends with their layouts that my own projects drag on for ever and the slow progress is just not something I feel that I would like to document in public!

 

I built the boards some months ago and have laid two 30ft lengths of track and parts of the first two points and then got distracted onto other things, so there is very little to show. A part built station building, a part built carriage, 4 part built locos, some of which were last worked on over a year ago.

 

This is the start of the end wall of the station building.The prototype is very flat so I chose to scribe the bricks onto plastic card rather than your method, which gives a lovely effect but a bit too textured for what I need.

 

 

 

I may post another photo or two when there is actually something worth showing!   

 

 

[Dave Hunt]

TBG, that end wall looks great. How did you scribe the brickwork so neatly - which tools did you use etc?

 

Dave

[t-b-g]

On 28/07/2019 at 09:47, Dave Hunt said:

TBG, that end wall looks great. How did you scribe the brickwork so neatly - which tools did you use etc?

 

Dave

 

Thanks for the kind words.

 

Sorry for being slow responding. I have been away for a week with another hat on, as one of the tutors at Missenden Abbey and I haven't mastered access to the web on my primitive mobile!

 

The brickwork is scribed directly onto plasticard, with the horizontals done with my OLFA Cutter (skrawker) and then the verticals with a scraperboard knife. The OLFA had too big an angle on the front to get where it was needed without putting an unwanted nick in the brick above. Curves were done with dividers before the windows and door were cutout, so the other end had somewhere solid to sit in a marked dimple.

 

Any neatness is from good marking out of the spacing of the horizontal grooves, which is done by nicking the wall with a scalpel rather than a pencil. It gives a more precise mark. All the verticals were done by marking with an engineers square along the bottom of the wall so the joints are all one above the other. 

 

Not quick but quite theraputic and rewarding! 

Edited August 4, 2019 by t-b-g

[Dave Hunt]

Thanks TBG. I'll try that when it comes to the buildings for my layout. I have an OLFA cutter but am not familiar with scraper board knives. Are they obtainable at artists' supply shops or websites and are there different sizes. If so, which size did you use and do you recommend any particular make?

 

Regards

 

Dave

Edited August 4, 2019 by Dave Hunt

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Dave Hunt said:

Thanks TBG. I'll try that when it comes to the buildings for my layout. I have an OLFA cutter but am not familiar with scraper board knives. Are they obtainable at artists' supply shops or websites and are there different sizes. If so, which size did you use and do you recommend any particular make?

 

Regards

 

Dave

 

Mine has a wooden handle, is pretty ancient and is marked Wm. Mitchell's Pedigree Universal Holder. I recall it originally held a pen nib back in the days' when schools had inkwells built into the desks.

 

The blades were obtained from an art and craft type shop decades ago (the shop has long gone now) which sold those foil picture kits that you scrape away to reveal an image. They don't have a brand name, so I can't help you there.

 

But I have seen similar handles (plastic now of course) with similar blades for sale at our local "Range" store, in cheapo picture kits.

 

I don't know if they come in different sizes but I have seen them with different shaped blades. Mine have a straight edged diamond shape, which I find useful for other purposes, such s creating a slated roof by scraping away a tiny fillet of plastic from a solid roof to make a very thin "overlap" of slate, which can then be scribed vertically.

 

Edited to add: https://www.jacksonsart.com/essdee-scraperboard-cutter-shape-no1-box-of-12-requires-a-handle-holder?channable=e17573.NTcxNjU&___store=jacksonsart_en&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkuqU19Dp4wIVgkPTCh2FlgafEAkYASABEgLyL_D_BwE

 

Mine are like these although may not be from the same manufacturer. It does show the shape and size.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Tony

Edited August 4, 2019 by t-b-g

[Dave Hunt]

Thank you very much TBG, that's very helpful. I'm going away tomorrow morning for a week but I'll look at trying to get one when I get back. All I'll have to do then is finish all the tracklaying, wiring etc. before starting on the buildings but I think I'll do some practice scribing as soon as I can. I'm planning on using 20 or 30 thou plastikard stuck onto plywood carcasses.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

Edited August 4, 2019 by Dave Hunt
Predictive text rubbish

[Tricky]

FWIW I tend to use mountboard now for straightforward sound-looking brickwork. Easy to cut and glue, soft to scribe. For more decrepit brickwork I would revert to DAS where more texture can be incorporated. 

Having said that, I’m going to experiment with engraving brickwork on to mountboard with my laser. Although I suspect it might look too uniform and lifeless. The main advantage to using the laser over styrene sheets for example however is the ability to create the correct queen closers into English and Flemish bond external corners and window and door openings plus brick arches and other architectural features. Although if I’m going to draw an example patch of the two main bonds, I could incorporate some variation into my Autocad drawing from the start and then copy and paste as required. A bit long-winded but an interesting concept and one which I might do some R&D for the buildings on Tewks...

[t-b-g]

I am not sure how I would deal with large areas of brick.

 

The buildings on the 7mm project are few in number and small in size!

 

I don't think I will ever have space or finances to allow laser cutting here so for now, scribing will have to do.

 

The prototype building still stands, so copying the patterns in the brick, including closers where appropriate, shouldn't be too difficult, just a bit slow (like all my modelling!). 

[Tricky]

FWIW I tend to use mountboard now for straightforward sound-looking brickwork. Easy to cut and glue, soft to scribe. For more decrepit brickwork I would revert to DAS where more texture can be incorporated. 

Having said that, I’m going to experiment with engraving brickwork on to mountboard with my laser. Although I suspect it might look too uniform and lifeless. The main advantage to using the laser over styrene sheets for example however is the ability to create the correct queen closers into English and Flemish bond external corners and window and door openings plus brick arches and other architectural features. Although if I’m going to draw an example patch of the two main bonds, I could incorporate some variation into my Autocad drawing from the start and then copy and paste as required. A bit long-winded but an interesting concept and one which I might do some R&D for the buildings on Tewks...