Midland in Tewkesbury

[Tricky]

7 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

As far as the colour of 'chocolate' is concerned I agree that it was more than likely Venetian Red. The Midland used both descriptors with regard to the colour used on its buildings and the colour swatch in Midland Style indicates a close match to Tamiya red brown.

 

Dave

Agreed Dave, that’s what I’m going to use. 

[Tricky]

‘Tis now ‘chocolate’. Actually Tamiya Flat Brown but it’ll do. 

[Compound2632]

Looks almost good enough to eat!

[Happy Hippo]

9 minutes ago, Tricky said:

‘Tis now ‘chocolate’. Actually Tamiya Flat Brown but it’ll do. 

I think that the colour looks very good.  At the risk of sounding insulting, as I know little about PO wagon liveries, it looks suitably drab and not the vivid colours that seen to prevail on many model railways.  I suppose in a few years the planking would end up looking more like the timber the wagon is placed upon.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Happy Hippo

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

I suppose in a few years the planking would end up looking more like the timber the wagon is placed upon.

 

At the risk of teaching a hippo to eat lemon drizzle cake, I'll say "not in the day" - the contract with the Gloucester RC&W Co would usually include repainting at mid-term, i.e. after 3.5 years.

[Tricky]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Looks almost good enough to eat!

You can see where I’ve licked it….

[Tricky]

On another matter, I’ve been wondering what the motive power would have comprised c1907? All the photos on line are of a much later period with a bit of GW in evidence by then. Does anyone have any ideas? I’ll pose this question on the ‘Midland Railway’ thread as well. 

[Compound2632]

52 minutes ago, Tricky said:

On another matter, I’ve been wondering what the motive power would have comprised c1907? All the photos on line are of a much later period with a bit of GW in evidence by then. Does anyone have any ideas? I’ll pose this question on the ‘Midland Railway’ thread as well. 

 

According to C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981), in which Tewkesbury is sandwiched between the square sheds at Stourton and Toton, 0-4-4Ts and 0-6-0s on local work, for many years. The shed also dealt with Birmingham engines at the outer end of their Gloucester Loop turns, including 0-6-4Ts, which are just within your time frame. Taking a cue from that, looking in S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002), we find that four of the 1892 Dubs batch of 1532 Class 0-4-4Ts (sometimes called 1833 Class) went new to Gloucester shed and spent their lives there: Nos. 2013-2016. which all got their 1907 number in June of that year, becoming 1361-1364. No. 2014 is specifically recorded as being allocated to Tewkesbury sub-shed in 1899-1902.

 

Unfortunately when it came to Johnson 0-6-0s, even Summerson baulked at providing pages of full allocations!

Edited July 22, 2021 by Compound2632

[Tricky]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

At the risk of teaching a hippo to eat lemon drizzle cake, I'll say "not in the day" - the contract with the Gloucester RC&W Co would usually include repainting at mid-term, i.e. after 3.5 years.

I guess in my period being modelled it will be about 7 or 8 years old so would already have has a repaint. 

[Western Star]

I do hope that this post is not seen as spoiling the party...  today I have spent about a half hour talking to Ian Pope on the subject of (a) the livery of Healing no.5 and (b) the possibility of errors in the livery / photo boards of Glos. photos.  Ian has advised me that he provided the Gloster official photos to the HMRS, Ian had access to the Gloster Photo Albums and copied the images.  I have received, from Ian, copies of the Healing photo and that of G. Small of Taunton.

 

Ian is of the opinion now that the Healing wagon no. 5 is black, written white, shaded red; that is, the wagon board in the photo of the Healing wagon no.5 is wrong.  Ian's change of opinion regarding the Healing wagon is based upon comparison of the colouring / tone of the wagon sheeting / solebar / washer plates / corner plates....  and with reference to the Glos. photo of G. Small of Taunton.

 

Our initial thought was that the wagon board for Healing no.5 was that from a photo taken earlier (that day or the previous day).  So the Healing photo is reference no. 2107 and we looked at photo reference no.2106...  no luck there as the wagon colour was neither chocolate nor black.  However, photo 2108 of G. Small is described as chocolate, written white, shaded black and our opinion is that the wagon board in photo 2107 and that in photo 2108 are identical (consider the markings in the background paint and what looks like chalk markings between the words, also the positioning of the letters in one row with the letters in the row underneath).

 

 

 

 

 

So, possible conclusions are:-

 

a/ both wagons are chocolate and the "board" is correct;

 

b/ one wagon is black and one wagon is chocolate, the board is wrong in one photo;

 

c/ both wagons are black and the board is wrong in both photos.

 

Ian's conclusion is that Healing is black, Small is chocolate and the board in the Healing photo is wrong.

 

regards, Graham

Edited July 22, 2021 by Western Star

[lezz01]

1 hour ago, Tricky said:

On another matter, I’ve been wondering what the motive power would have comprised c1907? All the photos on line are of a much later period with a bit of GW in evidence by then. Does anyone have any ideas? I’ll pose this question on the ‘Midland Railway’ thread as well. 

Hi Tricky.

Page 111 of John Dixons "Tewkesbury's Two Forgotten Railways", obtainable from the Tewkesbury Historical Society, has a list of  Tewkesbury's locos and when they were in service there. It's clear that Mr Dixon is a local historian rather than a railway historian as he doesn't know his Jintys from his 3Fs but other than that I believe the information is correct. It has some really good information about the railway and characters employed thereon.

Regards Lez.        

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, Western Star said:

I do hope that this post is not seen as spoiling the party... 

 

Not at all - that's brilliant detective work! And I certainly would hesitate to disagree with Ian Pope. It is certainly the same board in both photos.

 

28 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Ian is of the opinion now that the Healing wagon no. 5 is black, written white, shaded black;

 

Did you meant to write "shaded red"? (In which case might the ironwork be red, like the Burgum wagon?)

 

I can clearly see shading to the principal lettering on both wagons, which suggests to me that if either is painted black, the white lettering is shaded red. Perhaps I can now stop trying to argue that black is white. (or at least, that black appears lighter than chocolate!)

 

But I still think the simplest explanation is that both wagons are chocolate with white lettering shaded black. 

 

Incidentally, staring at the Healing photo as reproduced in Ian's Gloucestershire book, I had noticed that there seems to be a 4-digit number incised into the end of each headstock. Now that I'm looking for it, I can see it on the G. Small wagon, though I can't tell if it's the same number. Now I'm seeing it on many other Gloucester wagons of the period. A part number for the headstock, perhaps?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Compound2632

[Western Star]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Did you meant to write "shaded red"?

 

I can clearly see shading to the principal lettering on both wagons, which suggests to me that if either is painted black, the white lettering is shaded red.

You are correct, I have amended my post above.

 

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

But I still think the simplest explanation is that both wagons are chocolate with white lettering shaded black.

Maybe you ought to take up the matter with Ian.

 

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Incidentally, staring at the Healing photo as reproduced in Ian's Gloucestershire book, I had noticed that there seems to be a 4-digit number incised into the end of each headstock. Now that I'm looking for it, I can see it on the G. Small wagon, though I can't tell if it's the same number. Now I'm seeing it on many other Gloucester wagons of the period. A part number for the headstock, perhaps?

Welcome to the slippery slope know as "The De Gloster Code"..  or the art of trying to make sense of what you see in Glos. photos (without the help of missing primary resource material).  In the case of characters cut into the end of a headstock, that detail can be found in many / most of the Glos. photos and the numbers do change.  What is not clear to Ian / I is whether the numbers are order numbers or wagon numbers or something else...  since we do not have photos of every wagon we cannot be sure how those numbers relate to the Glos. build plate (Glos. build numbers cover more than just wagons).  There are other codes which are painted occasionally on the solebar, often in the vicinity of a crown plate - current thinking is these codes appear only on second-hand wagons when re-sold by Glos..

 

regards, Graham

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

I do hope that this post is not seen as spoiling the party...  today I have spent about a half hour talking to Ian Pope on the subject of (a) the livery of Healing no.5 and (b) the possibility of errors in the livery / photo boards of Glos. photos.  Ian has advised me that he provided the Gloster official photos to the HMRS, Ian had access to the Gloster Photo Albums and copied the images.  I have received, from Ian, copies of the Healing photo and that of G. Small of Taunton.

 

Ian is of the opinion now that the Healing wagon no. 5 is black, written white, shaded red; that is, the wagon board in the photo of the Healing wagon no.5 is wrong.  Ian's change of opinion regarding the Healing wagon is based upon comparison of the colouring / tone of the wagon sheeting / solebar / washer plates / corner plates....  and with reference to the Glos. photo of G. Small of Taunton.

 

Our initial thought was that the wagon board for Healing no.5 was that from a photo taken earlier (that day or the previous day).  So the Healing photo is reference no. 2107 and we looked at photo reference no.2106...  no luck there as the wagon colour was neither chocolate nor black.  However, photo 2108 of G. Small is described as chocolate, written white, shaded black and our opinion is that the wagon board in photo 2107 and that in photo 2108 are identical (consider the markings in the background paint and what looks like chalk markings between the words, also the positioning of the letters in one row with the letters in the row underneath).

 

 

 

 

 

So, possible conclusions are:-

 

a/ both wagons are chocolate and the "board" is correct;

 

b/ one wagon is black and one wagon is chocolate, the board is wrong in one photo;

 

c/ both wagons are black and the board is wrong in both photos.

 

Ian's conclusion is that Healing is black, Small is chocolate and the board in the Healing photo is wrong.

 

regards, Graham

 

What an interesting comparison and thanks for posting. It is nice that at least one or two folk think that I may not have been totally daft by suggesting that it might be black.

 

I think somebody messed up getting the right board in front of the right wagon.

 

The "Small" wagon looks exactly how I would expect a dark brown wagon, with white lettering shaded black, to look in a black and white photo. The shading is only slightly darker than the body paint.

 

So I would be very happy with the "Small" wagon being brown.

 

Seeing the better quality image and hearing from others convinces me that the "Healing" wagon is black with white lettering shaded red. I would also suggest that the strapping and ironwork including the corner plates, plus the ends of the solebar and maybe the ends of the bufferbeams are possibly red too but that is more speculative and I could easily be convinced otherwise. The tone of the colour just matches the shading on the lettering much closer than it matches the body colour but it may just be down to how the different surfaces reflect the light. The round door "banger" plate near the "o" in Flour really does look like it isn't black and other places are fairly convincing too.

 

I wonder if the two photos were taken on the same day and that there was a third photo of the Healing wagon with the correct board in front of it but the wrong one got retained. Once you were in the darkroom printing them up, it wouldn't be easy to see that you had done the wrong one. We will never know!

[Dave Hunt]

Being as far from an expert on wagons as I am, I don't want to muddy waters with some silly comment but it did occur to me when looking at the two photographs in question that the exposures are quite different, making the apparent shades look different and so possibly complicating the discussion? Even the background tones are different. It would seem possible, therefore, that both wagons were in the same paint scheme but just look different for that reason.

 

If I'm spouting nonsense I apologise.

 

Dave

[sulzer27jd]

4 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Being as far from an expert on wagons as I am, I don't want to muddy waters with some silly comment but it did occur to me when looking at the two photographs in question that the exposures are quite different, making the apparent shades look different and so possibly complicating the discussion? Even the background tones are different. It would seem possible, therefore, that both wagons were in the same paint scheme but just look different for that reason.

 

If I'm spouting nonsense I apologise.

 

Dave

 

I agree that this is more likely to do with variations in the photography than in the colour of the wagons.

 

John

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Tricky said:

On another matter, I’ve been wondering what the motive power would have comprised c1907? All the photos on line are of a much later period with a bit of GW in evidence by then. Does anyone have any ideas? I’ll pose this question on the ‘Midland Railway’ thread as well. 

 

Have you got the article in British Railway Journal No 40 on the line?

 

It is not too specific about 1907 but covers the period with a broad "Prior to the 1930s" but mentions that the locos were shedded there for the Malvern branch and the Ashchurch to Redditch line and that you could see 0-4-4Ts, Johnson and Kirtley 0-6-0 types, various 2-4-0 types and Kirtley Well tank No 1206 which was on the Malvern branch "for many years".

 

If there are any published works on those lines with early period photos that may give some pointers. 

[t-b-g]

18 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Being as far from an expert on wagons as I am, I don't want to muddy waters with some silly comment but it did occur to me when looking at the two photographs in question that the exposures are quite different, making the apparent shades look different and so possibly complicating the discussion? Even the background tones are different. It would seem possible, therefore, that both wagons were in the same paint scheme but just look different for that reason.

 

If I'm spouting nonsense I apologise.

 

Dave

 

I think all any of us can do is to give our opinions. There is no reason to suppose that your view is any more or less nonsense than mine!

[Tricky]

Hmm. Loving the discussion on black verses red verses brown etc etc. 
Just wondering if I’m going to have to lick ALL the chocolate off! 

[t-b-g]

6 hours ago, Tricky said:

Hmm. Loving the discussion on black verses red verses brown etc etc. 
Just wondering if I’m going to have to lick ALL the chocolate off! 

 

The question seems to be whether you prefer chocolate or liquorish.

 

Nobody really knows for sure which version is correct. All you can do is look at the photos, read the comments and make a best guess based on the information you have to guide you.

 

But it's black! 

[Compound2632]

15 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Being as far from an expert on wagons as I am, I don't want to muddy waters with some silly comment but it did occur to me when looking at the two photographs in question that the exposures are quite different, making the apparent shades look different and so possibly complicating the discussion? Even the background tones are different. It would seem possible, therefore, that both wagons were in the same paint scheme but just look different for that reason.

 

No apology required.

 

15 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Seeing the better quality image and hearing from others convinces me that the "Healing" wagon is black with white lettering shaded red. I would also suggest that the strapping and ironwork including the corner plates, plus the ends of the solebar and maybe the ends of the bufferbeams are possibly red too but that is more speculative and I could easily be convinced otherwise. 

 

The strongest argument against red ironwork I can marshal is that it was so unusual that in the case of the John Burgum wagon, photo 1950 of June 1899 (i.e. seven months earlier than the two photos in question), plate 75 in Montague's book, it was noted on the dimension / livery board:

 

Painted Black

Letters White

Shaded Red

Ironwork Red

 

However, in that photograph, there is the same similarity of appearance between the shading and the ironwork that we seem to see in the Healing photo. 

 

What we have absolutely no information on is the livery carried by Healing's other wagons, except for No. 6 obtained at the same time as No. 5. In particular, the four second-hand 10 ton wagons taken on five years' simple hire in March 1900. These might reasonably be presumed to be numbered 7-10 and to be of the standard Gloucester design per the Slater's kit. They could be painted any way you fancy and no-one could say you were wrong.

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No apology required.

 

 

The strongest argument against red ironwork I can marshal is that it was so unusual that in the case of the John Burgum wagon, photo 1950 of June 1899 (i.e. seven months earlier than the two photos in question), plate 75 in Montague's book, it was noted on the dimension / livery board:

 

Painted Black

Letters White

Shaded Red

Ironwork Red

 

However, in that photograph, there is the same similarity of appearance between the shading and the ironwork that we seem to see in the Healing photo. 

 

What we have absolutely no information on is the livery carried by Healing's other wagons, except for No. 6 obtained at the same time as No. 5. In particular, the four second-hand 10 ton wagons taken on five years' simple hire in March 1900. These might reasonably be presumed to be numbered 7-10 and to be of the standard Gloucester design per the Slater's kit. They could be painted any way you fancy and no-one could say you were wrong.

 

It is this sort of query which makes modelling the railways of that sort of period fascinating and frustrating in equal measure.

 

There is often some information but rarely all we need to be certain about anything.

 

Certainly red ironwork on an otherwise black wagon isn't something I think I have come across on any of the wagons I have looked at in any detail. Mine have been mostly pretty standard with no real mystery to unravel apart from seeing the two wagons in blue Dinnington livery when only one was supposed to have been painted like that according to one source. Black ironwork on a red wagon, on the other hand, seemed to happen quite a lot.

 

If I was building the wagon, I would probably go for red ironwork just for sheer novelty value. I think it would just look smart like that. If anybody says anything, I could always ask them to prove it is wrong.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

It is this sort of query which makes modelling the railways of that sort of period fascinating and frustrating in equal measure.

 

There is often some information but rarely all we need to be certain about anything.

 

Certainly red ironwork on an otherwise black wagon isn't something I think I have come across on any of the wagons I have looked at in any detail. Mine have been mostly pretty standard with no real mystery to unravel apart from seeing the two wagons in blue Dinnington livery when only one was supposed to have been painted like that according to one source. Black ironwork on a red wagon, on the other hand, seemed to happen quite a lot.

 

If I was building the wagon, I would probably go for red ironwork just for sheer novelty value. I think it would just look smart like that. If anybody says anything, I could always ask them to prove it is wrong.

 

I'm almost tempted to build three: one in chocolate with white lettering shaded black and black ironwork, one in black with white lettering shaded red, and one as you describe with red ironwork.

[t-b-g]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm almost tempted to build three: one in chocolate with white lettering shaded black and black ironwork, one in black with white lettering shaded red, and one as you describe with red ironwork.

 

What a lovely idea. That would please everybody.

 

 

[Regularity]

3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

What a lovely idea. That would please everybody.

 

 

Well, it would please everybody ⅓ of the time, and nobody for all of it!