313s Causing Chaos on the Brighton Mainline - again

[justin1985]

Seems like a 313 has broken down across the flat junction at Haywards Heath, and on a sunny Saturday afternoon in June, nothing is running either in or out of Brighton.

 

From what I could hear from platform staff radios, there was difficulty finding another serviceable 313 at Brighton depot to couple up and haul it out of the way.

 

How much longer are these heaps of junk going to be on the network?!

[Titan]

Did it break down or was it gapped? If the latter it was hardly the fault of the unit...

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, justin1985 said:

Seems like a 313 has broken down across the flat junction at Haywards Heath, and on a sunny Saturday afternoon in June, nothing is running either in or out of Brighton.

 

From what I could hear from platform staff radios, there was difficulty finding another serviceable 313 at Brighton depot to couple up and haul it out of the way.

 

How much longer are these heaps of junk going to be on the network?!

From what I’ve read elsewhere, they will survive the current franchise and be replaced when the Southern 455 fleet is replaced.

 

so 5 to 10 more years 

[phil_sutters]

and on the return journey at 12.59.

Edited June 22, 2019 by phil_sutters

[John M Upton]

Empties gapped across the south end junction at Haywards Heath.  Now thankfully shoved safely out of the way.

 

2026 is the latest withdrawal date now being touted with a big supply of cheap spare parts from the retiring GN ones plus one or two whole ones to head south at some point.

[JohnDMJ]

What was a 313 doing at Haywards Heath any way?

[96701]

1 hour ago, JohnDMJ said:

What was a 313 doing at Haywards Heath any way?

Getting gapped?

[John M Upton]

Test run from Lovers Walk (Brighton Depot) up to Haywards Heath and back.  They also regularly run empty to and from Selhurst for tyre turning, bogie overhauls, etc.

[Nimbus]

4 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

and on the return journey at 12.59.

 

That's a rather smart livery!

(Says he from GN territory)

 

The Nim.

[justin1985]

6 hours ago, Titan said:

Did it break down or was it gapped? If the latter it was hardly the fault of the unit...

 

Perhaps being as short as only 3 carriages might make it more likely to get gapped?

 

 With all the other 31x stock going off lease around now, the Brighton units could be extended out to a full four cars? 

[justin1985]

6 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

From what I’ve read elsewhere, they will survive the current franchise and be replaced when the Southern 455 fleet is replaced.

 

so 5 to 10 more years 

 

With the Pacers going, the last 317s and even all of the conventional 321s due to go soon, and the SWT 455s, which have been much more thoroughly overhauled than the Southern ones, also due to be withdrawn soon, this surely makes the Southern 455s and 313s pretty much the worst units left on the network?

 

Even the Southern 377s are now feeling really tired and rough. Time for a whole fleet renewal, Greater Anglia style?

[phil_sutters]

8 hours ago, Nimbus said:

 

That's a rather smart livery!

(Says he from GN territory)

 

The Nim.

It was formerly a GN unit. Please see https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/emu-overhaul-includes-heritage-livery.html  for the reason for the repaint.

[John M Upton]

Actually the Southern ones came directly from London Overground.  Numbers 1 through 17, 19 to 23 all went to LO from Silverlink with the rest going to GN.  Subsequently 1 through 17, 19 and 20 went from LO to Southern, 21 went to Network Rail and 22 and 23 eventually went to GN as well.

[sem34090]

9 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

With the Pacers going, the last 317s and even all of the conventional 321s due to go soon, and the SWT 455s, which have been much more thoroughly overhauled than the Southern ones, also due to be withdrawn soon, this surely makes the Southern 455s and 313s pretty much the worst units left on the network?

Depends what you class as 'worst'. The 313's are now 43 Years old but give me one of those over a potential 700/707/717-esque replacement please - Sure they're tired now but neither are they anything like as terrible as some people make out. And yes I do have to commute on them daily.

9 hours ago, justin1985 said:

Even the Southern 377s are now feeling really tired and rough. Time for a whole fleet renewal, Greater Anglia style?

The 377s need a refurb, and I never did like them much anyway, but they're not completely terrible.

42 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Actually the Southern ones came directly from London Overground.  Numbers 1 through 17, 19 to 23 all went to LO from Silverlink with the rest going to GN.  Subsequently 1 through 17, 19 and 20 went from LO to Southern, 21 went to Network Rail and 22 and 23 eventually went to GN as well.

Ah, but I think what the previous poster was trying to say is that they were built by BR for the GNR Suburban Electrification, the units you mention being transferred to the NLL and Watford DC Lines to replace the ageing Class 501 fleet.

[John M Upton]

The Coastway has a century old tradition of being stocked with other lines second hand cast offs.  There will never be a case for spending on brand new build as all that money is always prioritised towards London commuter trains where the big revenue is.

 

At the moment it looks like either the ex SWR 455's with their new electrical undergubbins or possibly the 458's in five or so years time down here, I can't really see anything else suitable becoming available.

[TheSignalEngineer]

14 hours ago, 96701 said:

Getting gapped?

I think the ones we had on the Euston - Watford DC lines had extra shoe beams added when they moved from the GN to prevent them getting gapped. There were certainly a couple of moves where a 3-car sets could get into difficulties in the Euston area with the as-built configuration.

[John M Upton]

Same ones Southern got, unfortunately someone took the decision to remove the extra shoes before they were sent down south.

[brushman47544]

If certain types of unit are known to be at risk of being gapped at certain places, why isn’t their passage managed in a way that avoids them being slowed or stopped in the risk areas? 

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

If certain types of unit are known to be at risk of being gapped at certain places, why isn’t their passage managed in a way that avoids them being slowed or stopped in the risk areas? 

I don't know. Way back when I was a youngster we used to check all gaps on 3rd rail bonding plans not only for track circuit integrity but also short lengths on conductor rail to make sure they were longer than the space between shoes. If possible an extra short  piece was recommended on the opposite side to prevent gapping.

[russ p]

12 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

With the Pacers going, the last 317s and even all of the conventional 321s due to go soon, and the SWT 455s, which have been much more thoroughly overhauled than the Southern ones, also due to be withdrawn soon, this surely makes the Southern 455s and 313s pretty much the worst units left on the network?

 

Even the Southern 377s are now feeling really tired and rough. Time for a whole fleet renewal, Greater Anglia style?

 

 

Be very careful what you wish for!

[phil-b259]

25 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I don't know. Way back when I was a youngster we used to check all gaps on 3rd rail bonding plans not only for track circuit integrity but also short lengths on conductor rail to make sure they were longer than the space between shoes. If possible an extra short  piece was recommended on the opposite side to prevent gapping.

 

When the Souh London line was still in opperation (Vic - LB) it used 2 car EMUs and after a couple of unfortunate gaping incidents across the throat of Victiria (que absolute choas toi the BML) an instruction was sent out that driers of 2 car units must NOT depart Vicotora unless the signal was showing a GREEN aspect (thus alowing a decent run up to the throat and hopefully not getting gapped). I imagine that drivers of such nis were also told not to do the mandated running brake test untill away from the throat area lest a reduction in speed would casue the same issue.

 

Sounds like a simlar thing may be needed to be applied to the 313s at HH.

[number6]

We used to always take a run at non- electrofrog points!

 

I am presuming the unit was crossing back from the northbound platforms heading south? That is four turnouts in a row - with associated gaps - I would have assumed even at 10mph you would coast across - or is this more like getting gapped repeatedly losing power and momentum?

 

Curious to know how the unit reacts when gapped? Does power come back on immediately or does it take a while to get power back to the wheels? 

[phil-b259]

48 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Same ones Southern got, unfortunately someone took the decision to remove the extra shoes before they were sent down south.

 

45 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

If certain types of unit are known to be at risk of being gapped at certain places, why isn’t their passage managed in a way that avoids them being slowed or stopped in the risk areas? 

 

I have a theory that when the decisions / assesments were made, the folk in charge only bothered to check the bits of line the 313s ued in passenger service (Portsmsmouth - Eastbourne / Seaford) - and the risk of gapping due to the track layouts was presumably considered to ne negliagable.

 

Similarly running up the BML to Selhurst was robably assed as fine due to the use of 2 car 456 units out of Selhurst depot. What was probably not considered in the anyalisis was turning trains back at Haywards Heath - maybe it was expected all test runs for the13s would be east or west from Lovers Walk not north.

 

Re-fiting the extra shoes would see a sensible move going forward - electrostar units have 4 on each driving car IIRC to help against gapping and also to provide a certain ammunt of backup shouls one of them break off (assuming its not caused by a track based dfect hat rops them all off of course)

[brushman47544]

One gapping event always amused me. A 2-EPB managed to gap itself crossing from the up main to the up relief just north of Grove Park station, given that this was a standard move to get the unit from the Bromley North branch to the depot you would not expect that to be possible.

[JohnDMJ]

I'm just waiting for a 313 to 'gap' on Ford level crossing! One shoe on the level crossing, the other on the subway roof!

 

What fun!!