What's happened to London Northwestern?

[jjb1970]

I rarely travel with London Northwestern now (I switched to commuting from MK Central in preference to Bletchley so I could use Virgin WC), but going to London on Monday morning I used them as the timing was right to get to LHR at the right time. I was genuinely taken aback at what I found. For all I hate the ride quality of the Class 350 I always found that London Midland kept the things clean and tidy and they were normally immaculate. This one was filthy, and I mean filthy, not cluttered with litter. I took a picture of a seat cushion, pasted below, this cushion was not untypical in the carriage. In fairness the train company are aware of the problem as they'd replaced a few cushions with green cushions which just added to the dilapidated feel of the carriage. That isn't litter or short term passenger misuse, that is longer term wear which is not being managed, the brown deposits looked like they'd been there for a long time and the material was thread bare. And the carpet felt like it was the prototype for some sort of artificial gravity spaceship flooring or something as it was so sticky. I have every sympathy for the train companies having to keep on top of litter and clutter abandoned by passengers etc, but to just allow trains to get into this state (I'll say again that London Midland kept these trains immaculate) is just appalling in my view.

 

[Bernard Lamb]

There does seem to be a marked decline in standards.

Not only is there a lack of train cleaning, there is a general step back in providing a reasonable service for the customer.

At Euston the short cut to the usual commuter platforms from the tube is no longer indicated as the normal way.

It is now signed for Overground only and the London Northwestern train time indicator has been removed.

Those in the know take a chance and head for the platforms while others wait in the main concourse area.

When the platform is eventually announced there is a mad rush and when a four coach train is in use the chances of getting a seat by following the instruction is zero.

There also seems to have been a drastic reduction in opening hours of ticket selling windows.

The other day at my local station the office had closed by 10.20.

I tend to buy on line the evening before I travel and collect at the station.

Not impressed.

Bernard

 

[Zomboid]

Same as South Western, it's all gone to pot since they changed from SWT. I suspect that in order to achieve the premiums they've signed up for they have to cut every corner in sight, and then cut some of the corners which remain after the first cut. Seats like that are not unusual on my SWML trains, even where they've replaced the covers.

 

There were no doubt plenty of people who couldn't wait to get rid of LM (there certainly were for Stagecoach) - careful what your wish for...

[caradoc]

Those stains on the seat look horrible, I dread to think where they came from........

[jjb1970]

I remember at the time being disappointed that an excellent operator (London Midland) had lost the franchise. They weren't perfect but overall they did an excellent job and they did keep the trains clean and in good order. 

One of my pet hates has always been people who sit in public seats in dirty work wear (oily overalls, overalls or jeans covered in building site crud etc) but looking at this particular train (the cushions in the picture were typical) it may now be a reasonable precaution when travelling with LNWR to wear overalls. 

[woodenhead]

Maybe the Government were listening when us Northerners moaned about the state of public transport infrastructure for us.

 

So instead of investing in us, they have brought the south down to be in line with the north.

[Nearholmer]

Whoa!!

 

i commuted on those for donkeys years until 2016, and they were always in very good order, clean, and litter picked very frequently.

 

is this related to running long through services, so that northern and southern division units now run right the way through, rather that the services being split?

 

are the northern units in a state of disrepair?

[jjb1970]

I think it is just neglect, even in London Midland days the 350 sets operated some quite long services that at one time would have been considered to be inter city routes. Something I noticed before switching my commute was that conductors and revenue protection staff became far more active after LNWR took over (I saw nothing wrong with that), I suspect that it is just a case of the current franchise holder squeezing to make as much as they can to make their franchise terms work. Either way I won't be in a hurry to use them again. We are lucky in MK that we have a choice, most stations served by LNWR don't really have that luxury. 

[caradoc]

I too found LM an acceptable operator, and I would agree that on the basis of (admittedly limited experience) the joining up of services either side of Birmingham has adversely affected performance, which impacts other operators as well; A couple of weeks ago I was on a Virgin Birmingham-Glasgow train which was delayed by a late running LNWR Liverpool service north of Crewe, and due to loss of path and the resulting further delay was 40 minutes late into Glasgow ! (having left New St on time).

 

[black and decker boy]

Was it a 350/2? These are in a short lease and will be replaced by Aventra units.

 

im not saying it’s acceptable but TOCs do drastically cut back on wear & year repairs when units approach the end of lease.

[jjb1970]

This was a 350/1, they are the oldest sets but they are not really old in train terms and until a year or so ago were still kept clean. 

[Dava]

LNWR are taking full page adverts in weekend newspapers to say how much better they are getting, etc. 'More rush hour seats' has a double meaning...

[jjb1970]

They're spending so much to tell us how much better they are that there is nothing left over for cleaning trains..... 

[caradoc]

17 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

They're spending so much to tell us how much better they are that there is nothing left over for cleaning trains..... 

 

And the dirty cushions in your photo give a whole new meaning to the expression 'bums on seats' !

[Ian Hargrave]

As a new  customer to LNWR....return Lichfield TV-Euston in March  ( 1st classs ) Both trains single 350 4 car units and single journey Euston-Tamworth on Spring bank holiday Tuesday in May.,an 8 car 2x 350.I can say that all trains were not affected by the third world squalor shown above.....save for one truculent youth putting his feet on a facing seat.

 

A couple of observations.First class travel is chronically not fit for purpose and an almost total waste of money save for it being an andtidote to overcrowding.No refeshment facilities of any kind are available on what is not a short journey .The concourse scramble at Euston when the train is announced as ready for boarding is downright dangerous and should not be permitted .I must have kneecapped several fellow travellers with a couple of small trolley cases in the quest for a seat in standard class which was only achieved on that morning due to it being a double unit.I suspect that a match at Wembley the previous day had something to do with the double unit bonus.Much emphasis was made by train crew of passengers using 1st class on standard ticketing .This to our own  observation is common practice and indeed several unfortunate citizens were summarily evicted ...something we observed on an earlier journey.Pay up or move....fair enough ! In this case there was room in standard class.

 

On board traincrew performance is perhaps variable.On one of the 3 journeys ticket inspection north of MK did not happen due to “fault with machine” which meant maybe open season for fare dodging.The lady in question did not make any appearance in our part of the train.

 

.

I

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Interesting that you mention inadequate crowd-control.

 

The one occasion when I was moved to write a "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" letter (actually more a "very worried of MK" letter) to LM was related to this, although not at Euston.

 

At Euston, their job is made hard by a truly not-fit-for-purpose design at the head of the suburban platforms, but the problem is more widespread than Euston. There are ways of managing people-flows safely, and neither at Euston nor other stations do their staff (its the same staff "on the ground", despite a franchise change) seem to have been trained in these matters, and they make really basic, potentially very dangerous errors ........ the worst I saw was them stemming a crowd-flow at the bottom, rather than the top, of a long flight of stairs, which is the classic recipe for a cascade fall.

 

I'm no longer a regular, but my view would be that, after a couple of letters to the management, and a few months to see if they fix it, if things still looked bad, it might be time to go against instinct and quietly suggest to HMRI that they observe how things work in practice.

 

Introductory background reading, for anyone interested (the 'meat' is in the reference documents linked-to at the end) https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160607183251/http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/5598/hf-station-crowd-control.pdf

[AMJ]

There seems to be a trend with some of the franchise operators to cut costs on servicing and cleaning of stock.

 

A friend who works as a guard for Northern says that certain depots look after the stock better than others.  Depot staff say that a ripped/stained seat is not stopping a train going out but if a door was faulty they would need to fix it.  If you see a Northern train with the loo locked out then there is an issue not stopping the train being used!

 

Cleanliness and repairs to seats need to take place as the "passengers" (not customers) are the first to be vocal on social media these days.

[CovDriver]

The 350/1 fleet are well over 10 years old now and the interior wasn't the correct specification when it was delivered but they are now going through a full refurbishment programme I believe its 350106 and 115 that are currently being done inside Bletchley depot.

They're having a completely new design of seats and plug sockets at every seat along with up to date PIS (passenger information system).

I really feel for the passenger as the state of the interior on 350/1 is embarrassing to say the least if it makes you feel any better the drivers seat aren't much better to be honest.

And to be honest I wish the powers that be would keep the 350/2 fleet as it appears that Siemens may have done something to them as the acceleration is fantastic I can now beat a pendolino from a standing start up to 75mph= line speed towards Long Buckby.

 

Cheers

 

Colin 

[Ron Ron Ron]

On 22/06/2019 at 19:20, jjb1970 said:

......I always found that London Midland kept the things clean and tidy and they were normally immaculate. This one was filthy, and I mean filthy, not cluttered with litter.......

....I have every sympathy for the train companies having to keep on top of litter and clutter abandoned by passengers etc, but to just allow trains to get into this state (I'll say again that London Midland kept these trains immaculate) is just appalling in my view......

 

On 22/06/2019 at 22:15, Bernard Lamb said:

There does seem to be a marked decline in standards.

Not only is there a lack of train cleaning,......

 

On 22/06/2019 at 22:30, Zomboid said:

Same as South Western, it's all gone to pot since they changed from SWT.......

 

On 23/06/2019 at 09:48, jjb1970 said:

I remember at the time being disappointed that an excellent operator (London Midland) had lost the franchise. They weren't perfect but overall they did an excellent job and they did keep the trains clean and in good order.......

 

On 23/06/2019 at 13:02, Nearholmer said:

....I commuted on those for donkeys years until 2016, and they were always in very good order, clean, and litter picked very frequently......

 

On 23/06/2019 at 15:39, black and decker boy said:

....I'm not saying it’s acceptable but TOCs do drastically cut back on wear & year repairs when units approach the end of lease.

 

On 23/06/2019 at 15:46, jjb1970 said:

This was a 350/1, they are the oldest sets but they are not really old in train terms and until a year or so ago were still kept clean. 

 

On 23/06/2019 at 15:57, jjb1970 said:

They're spending so much to tell us how much better they are that there is nothing left over for cleaning trains..... 

 

10 hours ago, AMJ said:

There seems to be a trend with some of the franchise operators to cut costs on servicing and cleaning of stock.......

 

 

Something that nobody has mentioned.

As I always understood it, the Class 350's like the Class 450's and Class 444's, were originally supplied on a maintenance and supply contract from Siemens.

Siemens being responsible for supplying X number of serviceable and clean units each day.

As far as I knew (as a mere observer), LM and SWT just manned and operated the trains.

For more than a decade, that appeared to be the case, as far as cleanliness was concerned.

 

So what has changed in that relationship between Siemens and the TOC's ?

Did the original contracts expire at some point, being replaced by lower cost arrangements than would have otherwise been the case, if the original arrangements had been renewed?

....Or am I way off base here?

 

It was noticeable that towards the end of SWT's tenure on the South Western, the Desiros started to look more dirty on the outside more often than had been the case for the previous 8 to 10 years.

A bit of a let down, after having nice clean trains as a matter of course.

 

 

 

 

.

[CovDriver]

I had a siemens fitter travel with me last week as the unit in question which was a 350/1 had been reported for rough riding at speed in excess of 100mph and we both agreed the whole 350 fleet is being run into the ground and absolutely battered inside and underneath the sole bar. 

I was told that the 350 fleet wasnt designed for the work they currently do. 

And for the record the unit I was driving at the time there was no rough riding it was in fact probably one of the smoothest at 110mph. 

 

Cheers 

 

Colin

[Hesperus]

Is it possible that the grotty unit in the opening post was just about to be refurbished?  If it was is it possible that the fitters had put all the grottiest seats into it or would that be too much work?

 

I remember the one I rode into London on being smart inside but that must have been 3-4 years ago.

[jjb1970]

On 06/08/2019 at 12:45, CovDriver said:

I had a siemens fitter travel with me last week as the unit in question which was a 350/1 had been reported for rough riding at speed in excess of 100mph and we both agreed the whole 350 fleet is being run into the ground and absolutely battered inside and underneath the sole bar. 

I was told that the 350 fleet wasnt designed for the work they currently do. 

And for the record the unit I was driving at the time there was no rough riding it was in fact probably one of the smoothest at 110mph. 

 

Cheers 

 

Colin

 

Given how rough riding the things are at the best of times the thought of one being bad enough to be singled out for attention is quite frightening! 

[CovDriver]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

 

Given how rough riding the things are at the best of times the thought of one being bad enough to be singled out for attention is quite frightening! 

To be honest I'm not sure what units you are travelling on as the 350 fleet are one of the smoothest.

[jjb1970]

I seldom travel LOWR nowadays. I decided to switch to Virgin for my commute following a journey home where I needed to take a pee. I managed to find a toilet in service (in my experience of 350's this is not something you can take for granted) and then found I faced a dilemma. The train was yawing so violently I could either hang on with one hand, use the other for you know what and hope for the best with a high probability half of it would end up on my trousers and the floor, or I could sit down to take a pee but then it was obvious I'd have pee filled water lapping up to my backside as there was almost a mini tidal wave in there. I thought to myself "this is just (insert expletive)" and changed my commute from Bletchley to MK Central so I could use Virgin. The price is quite a bit more but for all their faults the 390's are a step change in ride comfort compared to the 350's. The odd time I have used 350's in recent times I really haven't been impressed, the 350/1 fleet is feeling seriously dilapidated now, ride is no better and it doesn't seem to be the most reliable service.

[jjb1970]

9 hours ago, Hesperus said:

Is it possible that the grotty unit in the opening post was just about to be refurbished?  If it was is it possible that the fitters had put all the grottiest seats into it or would that be too much work?

 

I remember the one I rode into London on being smart inside but that must have been 3-4 years ago.

 

In London Midland days the units were kept very clean and well presented, I'd say immaculate. OK they were fighting against the scourge of abandoned free papers (I hate the Metro, it's free and I still wouldn't say it offers good value for money) and litter but I don't think the TOCs can be blamed for selfish and lazy passengers who don't know what a bin is, and their cleaning people were pretty good at keeping on top of litter.