Cavan & Leitrim 4-4-0 loco drawings

[Baldwin30762]

Ok stop right there if you think any of the drawings you have are correct, most arn't, the last I heard was that one of the Universitys was doing something with some drawings, as has already been said the 4-4-0T where different some build for the Tramway and the others for mainline use, but towards the end it didn't make any difference to what locos was used where, I do have the works drawings for the 0-6-4 King Edward, somewhere on my system.

 

As for the ex Backwoods Kit, Neville tells me he is hoping to get it back into production next year ( I am after a set of casting for one which didn't have them a couple of years ago).

 

One thing why I have yet to build mine is the general consensus of the Kit was it had a few scale problems, I am not sure if it was over or under scale and I am sure that back of the cab was also wrong.

 

Hope this helps

 

Colin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Baldwin30762]

3 minutes ago, Porkscratching said:

I believe the 8 locos they originally had were mostly all repaired, had parts swapped, reboilered and modified to a degree over the years, Ballinamore had very good facilities originally, which was then unfortunately taken from them ,after which locos went to Inchicore for major work, can't remember chapter and verse, but at least a couple had different domes after reboilering, so there's doubtless a fair bit of variance between the sister locos. I've amassed a reasonable number photos of the locos in life, seen from various angles, and will naturally be giving them close scrutiny!

 

it is also worth getting hold of a couple of C&L books:-

 

1 Smoke amidst the Drumlins by Anthony Burges Colourprint ISBN 1-904242-62-6 about £9.00 new

2 The Cavan and Leitrim Railway by Tom Ferris and Patrick Flanagan Midland  ISBN 1-85780-073-7 once agin about £9.00 New

 

see Amazon for what is available

 

Regards

 

Colin R

 

 

[Porkscratching]

I've got the old cheap paper back P Flanagan C&L book, is the one with T Ferris a new updated version of the same I wonder?

I've seen the other book advertised, I will now certainly get it, and thanks for the heads up !

[rue_d_etropal]

I located my copy of P Flanagan's original book, in which he describes how new boilers from 2 different sources were fitted at some time. As that was quite early on , I suspect boilers could have been swapped around after that. Even original drawings would not show what was what, so only way is to check photos for particular loco and date. Early period is even more complex, with the tramway locos being modified many times.

 

I will have to read through loco chapter again to see if I can work out which loco had which boiler. I think one was longer than the other, which might explain differences in the drawings.

Typically this is the second loco I have started to look at , only to find drawings can not be relied on completely.

 

I think the book with Tom Ferris is mainly photos, typical of the publisher.

Edited July 2, 2019 by rue_d_etropal
new info

[rue_d_etropal]

Rereading the chapter, and it isn't clear, but I think boilers fitted were similar. Suspect the RM drawing is probably closer to being true, apart from back of cab, and thatdetail can be taken from other drawing. Photos seem to suggest dome is central as per RM drawing. Loco no 5 had coal bunker extension fitted.

Might be worth while getting book of photos, as there might be some useful shots.

 

[John M]

Its  possible drawings of the locos in their original condition may exist in the Robert Stephenson collection of the  National Railway Museum collection https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/search/archives/9e1d799c-07ce-3765-8653-c5062745aa7c.

 

Interestingly Clements & McMahon were unable to locate drawings or diagrams of the C&L 4-4-0Ts  locos within the Irish Railway Record Society Archive although other narrow gauge loco diagrams were located.

 

P J Flannigan's  book is probably the best source of information on the re-builds and variations between individual locos. 

The preserved No 2 Kathleen was originally a "Main Line" loco but was rebuilt with parts including cab and tanks from the scrapped No7 a Tramway engine with cut away rear cab sheets.

 

The replacement raised round topped boilers were obtained from a number of different suppliers which may account for detail variation  in boilers between individual locos.

 

I have models of No2 & No8  and  will probably add No 3 & No 4  if the Backwoods kit is re-released.

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by John M

[johnarcher]

9 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I located my copy of P Flanagan's original book, in which he describes how new boilers from 2 different sources were fitted at some time. As that was quite early on , I suspect boilers could have been swapped around after that. Even original drawings would not show what was what, so only way is to check photos for particular loco and date. Early period is even more complex, with the tramway locos being modified many times.

 

I will have to read through loco chapter again to see if I can work out which loco had which boiler. I think one was longer than the other, which might explain differences in the drawings.

Typically this is the second loco I have started to look at , only to find drawings can not be relied on completely.

 

I think the book with Tom Ferris is mainly photos, typical of the publisher.

Yes, the one with Tom Ferris is pictorial, concentrating on the last decade of the line.

[rue_d_etropal]

The Tom Ferris book is a bit pricey now. over £20 on Amazon. I have ordered a copy of the other book.

The way bit of different locos have been used in the presrved loco shows that you can't rely on presrved items to be historcally correct,but it does surprise me that museums that are keepers of thes items are not getting them 3D scanned , which would then scale drawings could be produced. Itis something that is bein recommended for historic buildings and quite a few have been done, including Notre Dame in Paris, which is proving very useful after the fire.

[Porkscratching]

I've ordered Smoke Amidst the Drumlins anyway, 7.99 inc. which I thought a good deal, I'll look out for the other version of Flanagan and grab it when I see a bargain copy !

[Baldwin30762]

9 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

The Tom Ferris book is a bit pricey now. over £20 on Amazon. I have ordered a copy of the other book.

The way bit of different locos have been used in the presrved loco shows that you can't rely on presrved items to be historcally correct,but it does surprise me that museums that are keepers of thes items are not getting them 3D scanned , which would then scale drawings could be produced. Itis something that is bein recommended for historic buildings and quite a few have been done, including Notre Dame in Paris, which is proving very useful after the fire.

There was talk sometime ago to get both surviving C&L locos 3D scanned but I dont think it happen. it would be something I would be interested in, to add to the hassle of Drawings, not all the C&L locos came out the same from the word go, over on the irish 3ft Gauge e Group sometime ago one of the contributors had worked out most of the detail differences between each of the locos, but sadly he died last year I think it was, I am sure his nots are on the website somewhere and it wouldbe worth Joining even if it was just to get the details.

 

 

Colin Rainsbury

 

 

 

[Porkscratching]

As a slight aside, the 'Tralee and Dingle railway', book by David Rowlands might be worth having ref. the T&D locos that C&L ran too...

I can btw highly recommend the 9 cd set 'Irish Railways' which is compiled & narrated by Mr Ferris, there's some interesting unique footage of Ballinamore and the C&L plus loads of other narrow ( and broad) gauge fillums ..

Edited July 3, 2019 by Porkscratching

[rue_d_etropal]

3 hours ago, Porkscratching said:

As a slight aside, the 'Tralee and Dingle railway', book by David Rowlands might be worth having ref. the T&D locos that C&L ran too...

 

I have that book, definitely recommended. Pity there is not something similar for Cavan and Leitrim Railway.

 

Although there is some sceptisism concerning railway drawings produced in the 1950s. I have come across some completely inaccurate ones in my own research into other railways, but looking at those drawings in RM , I would expect them to have been done from actually measuring the real locos and stock at the time, and are therefore more likely to be correct than some only done from photos, but it would still be worth while using both  to do any model. Fo me, one advantage of 3D printing is that it is far easier for me to alter any design, if any new evidence is found to show errors. This is far more difficult for traditional model making such as r2r or kits.

Edited July 3, 2019 by rue_d_etropal
spell check

[rue_d_etropal]

just received my copy of Smoke Amidst the Drumlins, nice book, not too expensive. One photo of no 2 is interesting. I thought no 2 was originally a mainline loco, yet it has the cut outs in rear of cab. Just wondering if this means cabs got swapped around.

[John M]

36 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

just received my copy of Smoke Amidst the Drumlins, nice book, not too expensive. One photo of no 2 is interesting. I thought no 2 was originally a mainline loco, yet it has the cut outs in rear of cab. Just wondering if this means cabs got swapped around.

No2 currently carries No1s boiler and No7s platform, tanks and cab.

 

Like the NWNGR re-build of Moel Tryfan & Snowdon Ranger into one locomotive the GSR rebuilt No2 with No7s superstructure and boiler in 1944, the loco later received No1s boiler during its final overhaul at Inchacore Works in 1951. (Source Cavan & Leitrim Railway, PJ Flannigan)

 

I would highly recommend P J Flannigan's book to anyone that is even remotely interested in the Cavan & Leitrim 

[rue_d_etropal]

My point is that you do need to find photos of some locos and stock especially if you want a model for a particular year.

 

It also possibly raises a pholosophical question, as to when does a loco cease to be the loco it was built as. Like the socks that get darned until there is nothing of the original. Type of discussion that would sit well with a pint of Guinness!

I can also recommend PJ Flannigan's original book. Plenty of paperback copies available at low prices. Just a pity it does not have any loco or stock drawings, but given the number of alterations to original stock, it would need to be a much bigger book.

[Porkscratching]

Cheers gents, I've got the original cheapo Pan paperback version of Flanagan's C&L R. and awaiting delivery of Smoke Amidst the Drumlins, (and indeed the T&D book that was mentioned.)

I've been craftily accruing photos from t'internet, i printed some out too, so I'm not neglecting reference material ! ( i only wish I had the time etc available right now to visit Cultra and show the tape measure to a real loco! )

That 9 CD set of Tom Ferris' Irish railways has a few lovely bits of footage of the C&L, again some sections showing good detail of the locos / stock.

I'm also indebted to the fine gentlemen on here who mailed me some excellent stock diagrams and reading material !