Southern Railway - Electrified Branch Line Services

[talisman56]

Model a dairy goods processing plant - one XP goods train a day guaranteed...

[Nearholmer]

The only minor challenge is that the South Downs are almost devoid of cows, so maybe it will have to be a sheep’s cheese factory.

[Oldddudders]

Wasn't there a dairy at Sheffield Park? Extending that to include cheese production is hardly sci-fi stuff. 

[Nearholmer]

There was, but, remaining in picky mode for the moment, I think the OP said his branch-line went up to somewhere near Devil’s Dyke.

[Darius43]

34 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The only minor challenge is that the South Downs are almost devoid of cows, so maybe it will have to be a sheep’s cheese factory.

 

I guess no one told that to the farmer with a field full of cows that I drive past most days on my way from Worthing to Partridge Green (and back).

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Darius43

[Nearholmer]

You sure they’re not sheep dressed-up?

 

Due to the wonders of the web, these factoids can be quoted:

“6.5 Livestock numbers
Sheep are the most numerous livestock (97,700), followed by cattle (27,600) then pigs (2,400). There has been a radical decrease in the number of pigs between 2000 and 2009, a decline of 20,600 animals, with cattle decreasing by around 4,600 and sheep increasing by 3,100.”

 

This relates to the entire national park area.

 

The cows are mostly down in the river valleys, with the sheep mostly on the higher bits and really poor bits in the valleys.

 

Until frozen meat began to be imported, there were even more sheep, millions of ‘em.

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Siberian Snooper]

On 25/06/2019 at 15:14, Oldddudders said:

Not obvious to me what those services might have been. The whole West Worthing/Horsham to Havant section, including Littlehampton and Bognor Regis, was electrified in one hit in May 1938. No doubt the juice rail was in place well before the last steam services ran, and so they were photographed? And of course freight services throughout the electrified area continued to be steam operated until well after the war. 

 

My dad remembered that,  until last year when he got dementia, having been born and raised in Horsham.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Wasn't there a dairy at Sheffield Park? Extending that to include cheese production is hardly sci-fi stuff. 

Yes, with its own narrow-gauge tramway.

[Nearholmer]

I'm fairly certain that Turner's Sawmill at SP had narrow-gauge tramways in it too.

 

Now, trying to be helpful, instead of ockerd, an industry that would look at home disfiguring the landscape on the scarp-slope of the Downs would be Portland cement making, and that would certainly justify a heavier-than-typical service of steam-hauled goods trains to a BLT.

 

Or, move Plumpton or Brighton Race Course slightly, thereby giving an excuse for horse box specials from all over the place, and the odd appearance of a 5-BEL.

 

There were racing stables at Fulking/Poynings, right near The Dyke, in the dim and distant, a fact which I know because my paternal grandfather worked there for a period.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Nearholmer

[DY444]

My take is this.  There are obviously several examples of stations where the electrification ended but the line didn't.  Horstead Keynes, Alton and Ore have been mentioned.  There's Sevenoaks, Gillingham and Maidstone East before the Kent Coast scheme, Sanderstead, Reigate etc plus others where there were junctions nearby and one or more lines from those junctions weren't electrified.  However given the SR's enthusiasm for electrification then I think the operating philosophy for an electrified BLT would have been to use electric traction for the passenger service wherever possible.  Therefore I suspect the general answer to the OP's question for a dead end branch terminus is that a mixed steam and electric service would have been unlikely apart from during the period leading up to the change over to full electric working. 

 

Having said that you need to apply the "feel" test.  Does what you're doing feel right to an averagely knowledgeable enthusiast?  To digress slightly, I recall seeing a layout at an exhibition many years ago that was basically a pastiche of South London in the mid-60s.  It had a section of urban electrified double track main line with a couple of junctions leading to separate fiddle yards.  It was a mix of steam, diesel, electric, green and blue and in 5 minutes you'd see the steam hauled Bournemouth Belle, the Brighton Belle and the electrically hauled Golden Arrow on the same running line.  That of course was not right but it didn't matter - the layout was so well observed and atmospheric (you could almost hear "Waterloo Sunset" as you watched it) that it just felt right even though in reality it wasn't.  Same with this.  Most average, fair minded Southern enthusiasts are going to think that a mix of steam hauled and electric trains on an electrified branch is fine.  Plus there's rule 1 of course.

Edited June 28, 2019 by DY444
Typo

[Zomboid]

On 26/06/2019 at 20:19, DY444 said:

 

Yes.  St Leonards is Paddock Wood ECR not Brighton.  The boundary between Brighton ECR and Paddock Wood ECR is at Bexhill East TP Hut. 

Just to draw a line under this now I've had a look at the appropriate drawings...

In DC terms that's correct. The DCCBs at Bexhill East TPH are Brighton control looking towards Bexhill SS, and Paddock Wood looking towards Bopeep. The HVCB at Bopeep is Brighton control and the rest of the site is Paddock Wood.

 

I think the reason for the split being like that is because the TPHs originally didn't have their own independent control systems, and were satellites of the adjacent substation RTU (in modern speak, not sure what the SRs terminology for that particular item was). So Bexhill East had 2 DCCBs controlled via Bexhill and 2 via Bopeep, and when Paddock Wood took control of Bopeep it's satellite breakers would have gone along with it. The HV feeder is controlled from Brighton because one ECR has to have control of both ends of each feeder.

 

It's an unusual arrangement though, most of the boundaries that I've looked at are at substations. There's a couple of others at TPHs, but it's less common.

 

Anyway, that's enough electrification anoraking for now.

[St Enodoc]

Getting back to basics, how about something based on two lines along the foot of the South Downs? You could have electric trains to and from the East at, say, Hassocks and steam trains to and from the West at, say, Bramber/Steyning. The idea of a terminus opposite the "Shepherd and Dog" at Fulking is quite appealing (if somewhat implausible) and the Downs themselves would make a magnificent backscene. The divergence between the two lines could be off scene so a conventional branch terminus would do the trick.

[Oldddudders]

Some very balanced contributions recently on here. We each have a Rule 1 limit, where for us plausibility turns to silly fantasy, and we try not to go beyond that point. A good freelance model that is satisfying to operate is worth several faithful replicas that are dull. 

 

Junctions outside country termini certainly existed, vide Littledick and Eastbourne, albeit not exactly immediately, and far Wadebridge (not quite the terminus, but a good example) had two parallel single lines leading to Okehampton and Bodmin. The GWR station at the latter had/has the junction hardly off the end of the platform. So modellable!

[Zomboid]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The idea of a terminus opposite the "Shepherd and Dog" at Fulking is quite appealing (if somewhat implausible)

A terminus on top of the downs where they actually built one is probably less plausible, I'd say.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Not a branch terminus exactly, but more compact than many of those, was Reading South. I think that it has been modelled, many years ago. Electric trains from London, steam from Tonbridge/Redhill until 1965 (and even London via Redhill as a parcels working).

[Matloughe]

Thank you all gents, sadly as the layout is getting to the scenery stage and I very much doubt I could make alterations to it. (Besides there is no space for expansion at the moment) I will have to keep it as it is track-wise. This is it currently I did run a mixed EPB/CEP service a while back which was interesting is somewhat implausible.

 

My plan is to base the layout in the immediate pre-WW2 era, looking at 1938 using primarily exLBSC motive power - naturally with the odd flight of fancy. I won't be going any newer than Southern Sunshine wartime black normally although the malachite M7 I have was too good looking to refuse!

 

You've all given me some things to think about.

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, Matloughe said:

Thank you all gents, sadly as the layout is getting to the scenery stage and I very much doubt I could make alterations to it. (Besides there is no space for expansion at the moment) I will have to keep it as it is track-wise. This is it currently I did run a mixed EPB/CEP service a while back which was interesting is somewhat implausible.

 

My plan is to base the layout in the immediate pre-WW2 era, looking at 1938 using primarily exLBSC motive power - naturally with the odd flight of fancy. I won't be going any newer than Southern Sunshine wartime black normally although the malachite M7 I have was too good looking to refuse!

 

You've all given me some things to think about.

Nice and simple - always a good thing. If you just put the juice rail on the single line in and out and the bay at the back, leaving the rest for steam/diesel only, I think you'd have a practicable set-up irrespective of where your fictional location turns out to be. Ifield Green is a good Sussex name too.

Edited June 29, 2019 by St Enodoc

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Littledick.

Spoken like a true Central Division man.

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Spoken like a true Central Division man.

Back in the '60s, I recall a gifted colleague drawing a cartoon depicting "The Littledick chasing the Ore up the Quarry" - but it did not include trains!

[DY444]

12 hours ago, Matloughe said:

...

 

I did run a mixed EPB/CEP service a while back which was interesting is somewhat implausible.

 

 

CEPs and EPBs running on an electrified branch line doesn't seem unreasonable to me.  For example the EPB forming the branch shuttle and the CEP forming a through service having been detached from a longer formation at the junction station.

Edited June 29, 2019 by DY444

[St Enodoc]

On 27/06/2019 at 07:49, St Enodoc said:

 

If I recall correctly, the Central Division boundary used to be Bo-Peep Junction (exclusive).

I didn't recall correctly!

 

I found my old Quail map (how did we manage without them?) today while looking for something else. According to my annotations, the Eastern boundary of the Central Division was at mileage 31m 14ch, between Galley Hill oil terminal and St Leonards West Marina depot.

[Wickham Green]

On 29/06/2019 at 07:52, DY444 said:

 

CEPs and EPBs running on an electrified branch line doesn't seem unreasonable to me.  For example the EPB forming the branch shuttle and the CEP forming a through service having been detached from a longer formation at the junction station.

I'm sure I saw that combination once or twice on the Hayes Line when thins were a little out of course ....... a mix of EPB and HAP stock was quite common.

 

One electric / non electric junction that I don't think has been mentioned yet is Oxted ( + Hurst Green ) - yes in reality a lot later than desired but Rule 1 can be applied .............. or a little further south, what if Uckfield HAD been electrified and T.W.W. & Cuckoo not, Eridge would have made a fascinating - though not compact - layout !

[Joseph_Pestell]

29 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

I'm sure I saw that combination once or twice on the Hayes Line when thins were a little out of course ....... a mix of EPB and HAP stock was quite common.

 

One electric / non electric junction that I don't think has been mentioned yet is Oxted ( + Hurst Green ) - yes in reality a lot later than desired but Rule 1 can be applied .............. or a little further south, what if Uckfield HAD been electrified and T.W.W. & Cuckoo not, Eridge would have made a fascinating - though not compact - layout !

 

It happened on the Hayes branch quite a lot around the time of the London Bridge resignalling in the mid 70s. I think it was timetabled to avoid some empty stock movements.

 

Another branch that would see both HAPs and CEPs is Sheerness but neither of these is very helpful for the OP who wants something based on the Central Division.

[Nearholmer]

Gearing was an issue, in that main-line and suburban units had different ratios, but there were, IIRC, a few main-line geared EPBs that used to run out as far as Tonbridge ....... OD will correct me of I got confused.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

Gearing was an issue, in that main-line and suburban units had different ratios, but there were, IIRC, a few main-line geared EPBs that used to run out as far as Tonbridge ....... OD will correct me of I got confused.

Don't know about the gearing but EPBs got used on some fairly lengthy excursions to the coast. Must have been a lot of leg-crossing going on!