Locksley Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Hi all, calling on your expertise, I'm wanting to model and 3D print a few open scrap wagons like this example seen in one of Paul B's excellent shots at Aldwarke. Does anyone know what dimensions these would have been? I'm thinking maybe 10ft chassis length? Once I have some basics, I'm happy to just eyeball the rest but I didn't want to start one and end up with it completely the wrong size. Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Probably 10' wheel-base, 17'6" over headstocks. The ribs look like they're either 6" or 9" wide; such vehicles would be knocked up by the in-works wagon repair team, rather than by specialist wagon-builders. The underframes would re-use those from old tanks and minerals. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locksley Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Fat Controller said: Probably 10' wheel-base, 17'6" over headstocks. The ribs look like they're either 6" or 9" wide; such vehicles would be knocked up by the in-works wagon repair team, rather than by specialist wagon-builders. The underframes would re-use those from old tanks and minerals. Thanks Brian, that's pretty much what I suspected. Should mean I can modify my existing OHV chassis without too much trouble. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, Locksley said: Thanks Brian, that's pretty much what I suspected. Should mean I can modify my existing OHV chassis without too much trouble. I spent a summer vac working at one of Aldwarke's sister plants in the BSC Special Steels Group. Internal wagons were generally BR stock which had lost their bodies when being unloaded by electro-magnet. Part of my duties involved letting BR know when this had happened, so they could bill us for the wagon, rather than keeping sending demurrage invoices. Other sources for internal-user wagons I've seen have seen include 4-wheel tank wagons, with the upper part of the barrel cut off, and Bulleid tender chassis as ingot carriers; both were at Llanelly Steel. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locksley Posted June 26, 2019 Author Share Posted June 26, 2019 23 hours ago, Fat Controller said: generally BR stock which had lost their bodies when being unloaded by electro-magnet Well that sounds fun, are we talking literally having their bodies pulled off the underframe? 23 hours ago, Fat Controller said: 4-wheel tank wagons, with the upper part of the barrel cut off, and Bulleid tender chassis as ingot carriers I think I may have found my next 2 projects lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 37 minutes ago, Locksley said: Well that sounds fun, are we talking literally having their bodies pulled off the underframe? I think I may have found my next 2 projects lol More pulled apart, then pulled off the underframe; 16t minerals had a tendency to rust through at the joint between side and floor. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 (edited) I think this is a rebuilt Charles Roberts "U" type that were built in assorted sizes for different steel companies. This looks to me initially as 10' wb 17' 6" oh but actually could be a 17' 6" oh with 9' 9" wb. There is also a 9' wb 17' 0" oh version Mark Saunders Edited June 26, 2019 by Mark Saunders another version of dimensions 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said: I think this is a rebuilt Charles Roberts "U" type that were built in assorted sizes for different steel companies. This looks to me initially as 10' wb 17' 6" oh but actually could be a 17' 6" oh with 9' 9" wb. There is also a 9' wb 17' 0" oh version Mark Saunders These are a couple of the types of wagons Mark is referring to. As he mentions they were a common CR design which were supplied to several steelworks. There was a fine bogie version! https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/internaluser/eb1ca0a83 https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/internaluser/e671a37a3 https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/internaluser/e6275a73a Paul Edited June 26, 2019 by hmrspaul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locksley Posted June 27, 2019 Author Share Posted June 27, 2019 Excellent stuff, thanks for the help guys. I managed to throw something together on Tinkercad last night based on a slight mashup of a few different wagons as there does seem to be plenty of variations. It's certainly not 100% accurate and there's a couple more bits to add, but I think for 3D printing it should be ok. That brake gear was a nightmare... 9 hours ago, hmrspaul said: These are a couple of the types of wagons Mark is referring to. As he mentions they were a common CR design which were supplied to several steelworks. There was a fine bogie version! https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/internaluser/eb1ca0a83 https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/internaluser/e671a37a3 https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/internaluser/e6275a73a Thanks for that Paul! My plan is to model up a few more body styles so those will come in very handy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Have you seen : Monk-Steel, David (2005) Industrial wagons: An introduction. Publ by Industrial Railway Society, 100 pages ISBN 1 901556 33 6. This has a good selection of 4mm drawings. Sensibly David doesn't waste his time on here. However he has written about this What I do with wagons like this when I need to know length over headstocks and wheelbase but we haven't measured them is to obtain a picture (reasonably side on) and print the picture as large a possible in order to measure both wheel diameters as accurately as possible in inches, I take an average of this. I then measure over headstocks as accurately as possible in inches and divide this by the observed average wheel diameter, which gives a proportion of headstocks to wheel. ! then multiply this by 37 to give the length over headstocks in inches. Using 37 rather than 37.5 is I concur slightly inaccurate for new wheels, but is probably close enough for worn wheels. I do the same for wheel base. In practice wagon builders used multiples of 3 inches for these dimensions in most cases so you then go to the nearest multiple of three. A further check is height above rail to bottom of solebar and solebar height. Rail to underside is usually 36.25 inches for a 10 inch solebar and 36.75 for a 9 inch solebar. This results in a buffer height of 41.25 inches. There will be variations but these usually hold good for wagons on 16' 6" and 17" 6" underframes. BR Standards for wagons is of course a range of dimensions depending on wheel wear, condition of load and condition of suspension (springs etc.) The Examiners Handbook are - Maximum Minimum Wagons passing out of shops after repair 3' 6" . 3' 3.5" Wagons in Service, Maximum loaded 3' 6" 3' 1" Wagons in Service Unloaded 3' 6" 3' 2.5" If one works on 3' 5" buffer height and 3' 0" rail to underside it makes the arithmetic a little easier. Now I am sure the pedants will object to this method as inaccurate but when all else fails I find that this is a pretty useful 'rule of thumb'. Wheel tyres are usually 2.5" thick when new, and corresponding scrapping size is 1.25", so the height of a wagon can vary by 1.25" purely on diameter of wheels. This may be accommodated by adjustments to suspension, which is of course easier on wagons equipped with eyebolt suspension but almost impossible on wagons with shoe suspension. Given the kind of 'life' these wagons suffered the measurements will always be somewhat of a mystery, and I would not get too hung up about an inch or two one way or another. Mark may say more about the CR wagons with a 6in. diameter curve from side to solebar; I think he knows the NRM drawing info for some of them. Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locksley Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 Modelled up a couple more wagons and redid the first one as the Tinkercad file went a bit dodgy. Again, these are just eyeballed really and don't represent any one particular wagon, and they are simplified a little for 3D printing. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locksley Posted July 4, 2019 Author Share Posted July 4, 2019 Tried a print of the bottom curved sided wagon, came out really nice. Due to the curved ribbing on the sides I decided to print it upside with the Solebars in situ, this actually worked remarkably well and means the only clean up is the top edge and a little bit of the interior. Slightly easier than printing the Solebars seperately. The Bufferbeams are single units and slot in from each end, although I only realised after I'd printed that the buffers are too close together... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 The U type looks really good and I look forward to seeing some more versions! Mark 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 44 minutes ago, Locksley said: Tried a print of the bottom curved sided wagon, came out really nice. Due to the curved ribbing on the sides I decided to print it upside with the Solebars in situ, this actually worked remarkably well and means the only clean up is the top edge and a little bit of the interior. Slightly easier than printing the Solebars seperately. The Bufferbeams are single units and slot in from each end, although I only realised after I'd printed that the buffers are too close together... Nice work! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC&DR Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 I must say Locksley your CAD and 3D print looks extremely good. Well done! Steelworks were wonderful places to visit with so many different types of wagon to see. You may find this one of interest. These are a couple from other steelworks that I have drawn. LC&DR Stanton 13 ton box.pdf Visio-Lackenby HS Open.pdf 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC&DR Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 A little anecdote. I worked in freight for BR in the Sheffield Area in the early 80s. I was tasked to do TOPS integrity checks, and on one occasion I visited a scrap merchant in the Ecclesfield Area and found they had stacked four 16 ton Mineral wagons one inside the other. Now these were not scrappers, but good wagons we had shunted in earlier to load out with scrap! I was not best pleased and told the scrapmen as much. I told them they were not to load them but to put them one at a time on the rails and I would send a C&W examiner to check them over. Needless to say they were all 'red carded' and the scrap men had to wait until we could supply good wagons for them to send their scrap to Aldwarke! LC&DR 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locksley Posted July 4, 2019 Author Share Posted July 4, 2019 56 minutes ago, LC&DR said: I must say Locksley your CAD and 3D print looks extremely good. Well done! Steelworks were wonderful places to visit with so many different types of wagon to see. You may find this one of interest. These are a couple from other steelworks that I have drawn. LC&DR Stanton 13 ton box.pdf 250.1 kB · 1 download Visio-Lackenby HS Open.pdf 32.22 kB · 1 download 43 minutes ago, LC&DR said: A little anecdote. I worked in freight for BR in the Sheffield Area in the early 80s. I was tasked to do TOPS integrity checks, and on one occasion I visited a scrap merchant in the Ecclesfield Area and found they had stacked four 16 ton Mineral wagons one inside the other. Now these were not scrappers, but good wagons we had shunted in earlier to load out with scrap! I was not best pleased and told the scrapmen as much. I told them they were not to load them but to put them one at a time on the rails and I would send a C&W examiner to check them over. Needless to say they were all 'red carded' and the scrap men had to wait until we could supply good wagons for them to send their scrap to Aldwarke! LC&DR Excellent, thanks! More to add onto the to-model pile I love that Lackenby wagon, should make a really interesting model. Do you know if theres any photos of one knocking about? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Locksley said: Excellent, thanks! More to add onto the to-model pile I love that Lackenby wagon, should make a really interesting model. Do you know if theres any photos of one knocking about? Paul Bartlett has a few on his site, these were built by SRW and the similar chassis on the coil X from WH Davis. Mark 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 7 hours ago, Mark Saunders said: Paul Bartlett has a few on his site, these were built by SRW and the similar chassis on the coil X from WH Davis. Mark Several including https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bsclackenby/ec1af5c2 and https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bsclackenby/e11b48343 And this one is an interesting alternative. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bsclackenby/e1d2a8119 Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 The Coil X by WH Davis https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bsclackenby/e372618da 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said: The Coil X by WH Davis https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bsclackenby/e372618da That's a pretty solid-looking bit of kit, Mark. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locksley Posted July 5, 2019 Author Share Posted July 5, 2019 Thanks again all, I don't think my printer will be getting much of a rest over the weekend lol. The Lackenby wagon is definetely next on the agenda. I made a basic start on this one last night, now awaiting the chalk number on the side, as most of these seemed to have, and some oil weathering. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 Really looks the part especially with a whole family of them found in the Sheffield area with variations to keep the variety! Mark 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locksley Posted July 8, 2019 Author Share Posted July 8, 2019 Thanks Mark! I've started work on the Lackenby scrap wagon chassis, I'm hoping I can get the body done soon and fire off a test print. I also got this one finished off. Easily my favourite so far 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 8, 2019 Excellent models, but as they are wagons I'm a tad biased! It seems 3D printing has come of age. Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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