DJM - Statement of Affairs released

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

The liquidator didnt share that opinion either, they've set them to £0.

 

The liquidator advised that the realisable value was submitted by the Director when I asked.

[DavidH]

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

The liquidator didnt share that opinion either

 

That statement is Dave's statement - yes the liquidator name is at the front, but Dave's signed it off. See page 2.

[adb968008]

18 hours ago, John M Upton said:

I have just ordered a couple of the rapidly decreasing stock of Mermaids from Hattons. I think there are only two or three of two variations left now so if anyone still wants one of the exquisite little wagons, get in quick.  I don't there will ever be any more made.

Its very rare toolings turn to dust. (Usually a falling out with one factory and attempting to move them to another or fire/accident etc).

 

manufacturers know they are worth more whole than in parts, and also know whom they can approach to use them.

 

once DJs out of the picture, they wont be too hot for a company over here to pick them up and make use them.

 

maybe in someones 2020 range ?

 

 

[adb968008]

19 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

The liquidator advised that the realisable value was submitted by the Director when I asked.

 

In that case I might offer a fiver then, . print them on mugs, mouse mats, pretend share certificates, toilet rolls..

 

Artwork by the artist formerly known as...

Edited June 26, 2019 by adb968008

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

mugs

 

Already done. 

[Persephone]

4 hours ago, Legend said:

 

I agree .  Certainly at the very minimum he has failed to keep proper books and records . But what would trigger such an investigation off , the Liquidator? 

 

The liquidator could and indeed should under due diligence if they found any evidence that DJM had done anything illegal. But also the customer has rights as well and personally if I felt that I had been scammed would be making a complaint to the police. They may not be able to do a lot to be honest, but at least the complaint would be registered. 

[Sir TophamHatt]

I find this whole thing really strange.

Launched the APT, a bit wobbily here and there, but even when that "announcement" came out... I wouldn't have thought just a few months later and BOOM, out of business.

Even back when the announcement of the announcement was announced, surely DJ knew he was practically at the end?  Unless this was to try and force Chinas hand?

Just really weird.

 

[adb968008]

12 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Even back when the announcement of the announcement was announced, surely DJ knew he was practically at the end?  Unless this was to try and force Chinas hand ?

 

 

 

Anything is possible, by  registering the IP maybe it was a last poker chip to get the toolings back by trying to make them unsellable ?. Who knows Chinas response might have been to have sent a piece of broken boiler mould in a box left on his door step.

 

Indeed, I doubt we will ever know what happened (though you never know he may find a career in the speaker circuit talking of experiences ?) - Alan Pegler did post Scotsman.

 

He may even be negotiating with the model magazines to sell an exclusive interview, an insiders view of the industry, exposing the secrets, darks sides and satanic corners of the hobby and an exclusive exposure to a models dark interior..

Edited June 26, 2019 by adb968008

[spikey]

27 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 ... maybe in someones 2020 range ?

 

Hopefully with sensible motors and drives.

[Ryde-on-time]

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

...............

Indeed, I doubt we will ever know what happened (though you never know he may find a career in the speaker circuit talking of experiences ?)

 

The next RMweb gold members event perhaps?

[admiles]

32 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Already done. 

 

Ouch!

[truffy]

46 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

he may find a career in the speaker circuit talking of experiences ?) - Alan Pegler did post Scotsman.

More in the mould of Gerald Ratner, methinks.

[maico]

6 hours ago, Richard E said:

No VAT number but the Company name was on the foot of the invoice. Payment was by credit card direct with the DJM merchant account, not through his paypal account.

 

It's a legal requirement to put a Vat number on an invoice if you are Vat registered.

Maybe there are two trading entities : DJ Models Ltd a company Vat registered that has audited annual accounts and Dave Jones the sole trader, not Vat registered,  uses simplified self assessment tax returns. The liquidator is only concerned, or knows about, the company.

Edited June 26, 2019 by maico

[JSpencer]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I have often wondered if his 'accountant' was a bloke he met down the pub or possibly on Wikipedia.  Perhaps his IP advisor was also a regular in that pub - must be quite a useful place with all those 'experts' drinking there.

 

They must be some incredible CADs if they're worth that much.  As near as I can work it out there is one (possibly three) N gauge wagon(s), the J94, the Class 71, the N gauge 'King', the Class 92, two unfinished APT vehicle CADs, and possibly the N gauge Class 17.  That's 8 CADs, possibly 10 - those for the APT are effectively worthless because they're unfinished; the J94 and Class 71 are quite old and no doubt cost a lot less than current prices.   So I can't for the life of me see how they would average c.£3,000 each in value although a few might possibly have cost more than that.

 

In some cases the 'ownership' is clearly involved in the factory dispute (the J94 and Class71) so they are really out of the calculation anyway.  The more recent ones sit in a sort of no man's land where the key question has to be whether or not the factory has been paid (or paid in full?) for the work they have done on them and in my view the jury is more than likely to still be out on that question.  If it includes the IP'd designs then somebody has clearly decided they are worthless as there is no realisable value shown and they were clearly registered by DJModels Ltd so can't be in dispute as part of the company's 'assets'.

 

The company I worked for invested in developing some new hi tech (now on planes) and it reached a stage where a lot was invested but there was nothing tangible. That presented a hole in the balance sheet which shareholders (airline companies) would moan about. So there was a lot of debate about putting a value on it to keep the sheet balanaced. It was not more than 5% of the turnover though.

 

I assume DJ did the same with CADs only "perhaps" taking the full value of the cads and scans and saying this was their full asset value. Now its nil as the project is dead and maybe no one wants to buy them.

[G-BOAF]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Its very rare toolings turn to dust. (Usually a falling out with one factory and attempting to move them to another or fire/accident etc).

 

manufacturers know they are worth more whole than in parts, and also know whom they can approach to use them.

 

once DJs out of the picture, they wont be too hot for a company over here to pick them up and make use them.

 

maybe in someones 2020 range ?

 

 

Surely if Dave owns the IP, then any manufacurer/commissioner using his tooling (which contains his IP) will be in violation of that?

 

What is more interesting is where things sit with the Adams O2, which I believe used tooling owned by KMRC, but designed by Dave. Similarly the Hattons 14XX.

[Phil Parker]

7 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Surely if Dave owns the IP, then any manufacurer/commissioner using his tooling (which contains his IP) will be in violation of that

 

In the unlikely event of someone finding the tooling and deciding to use it, I'm sure they will bear this in mind. However, the IP is an asset of the business just like the tooling, so can be sold.

 

7 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

What is more interesting is where things sit with the Adams O2, which I believe used tooling owned by KMRC, but designed by Dave. Similarly the Hattons 14XX.

 

I expect that both Hattons and Kernow own all the rights to those models, because that's what they paid for when commissioning them.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

I find this whole thing really strange.

Launched the APT, a bit wobbily here and there, but even when that "announcement" came out... I wouldn't have thought just a few months later and BOOM, out of business.

Even back when the announcement of the announcement was announced, surely DJ knew he was practically at the end?  Unless this was to try and force Chinas hand?

Just really weird.

 

More like inevitable than strange I would have thought.   Company which has been trading for several years resorts to crowdfunding to finance new products - that's a red flag for a start.  Why can't it get or why hasn't it got any reserves of capital?  Once you're on that path it must become a fine balancing act of making the very best use of financial resources and ideally concentrating on what you're doing instead of forever announcing new products - second red flag?   Nobody who is putting money in actually knows where is is going beyond a few platitudes on the 'net, and it's lot of money - yet another red flag?   Past business achievement, what has been made out of what was promised - another red flag.   Dispute, of whatever nature, with a factory losing access to past work and models which might earn some money - big question mark - so yet another red flag.

 

Accounts in a shambles with badly delayed filing and a threatened strike-off; what kind of business is this and how is it run? (by someone who didn't appear to know the difference between HMRC and Companies House) - another red flag.  Shifting terms & conditions on the same project as he is made aware of what he ought to have already known about consumer protection - another red flag.  Receipts which weren't exactly in the correct legal form and seemingly now with lack of clarity about who the money was paid to in some cases - yet another red flag.

 

Then that strangely timed announcement, daft -  and perhaps as 'adb' has identified 'the last poker chip, a desperate threat to other UK companies and not voiced for months after the registrations had been made - another red flag.  Odd that it came so soon after promises made about various models going to tooling 'imminently' and for which some 'licence fees' might well have been extremely useful?  (And would it force 'China's hand' - no way, they're not daft).  

 

And finally what was bound to happen one way or another- the promises had been made about models advancing to tooling and production so no doubt factories were asking for money  upfront.   Inevitably big money, and the cupboard is (as we have now seen) bare.  And maybe the next instalments simply wouldn't cover it?  - looks to me that was going to happen sooner or later but the worst aspect of it is that lots of folk put in their own money before it happened and that money will be lost unless they paid by credit card and can get it back.

Edited June 26, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[truffy]

7 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

What is more interesting is where things sit with the Adams O2, which I believe used tooling owned by KMRC, but designed by Dave. Similarly the Hattons 14XX.

 

Just now, Phil Parker said:

I expect that both Hattons and Kerow own all the rights to those models, because that's what they paid for when commissioning them.

 

Didn't at least one commissioner move their tooling and deal direct with the factory in the end?

[Legend]

34 minutes ago, maico said:

 

It's a legal requirement to put a Vat number on an invoice if you are Vat registered.

Maybe there are two trading entities : DJ Models Ltd a company Vat registered that has audited annual accounts and Dave Jones the sole trader, not Vat registered,  uses simplified self assessment tax returns. The liquidator is only concerned, or knows about, the company.

 

That's what I'm beginning to wonder . Were the Crowdfunding deposits paid to David Jones Sole trader and not the Limited company which is in liquidation . In which case, of course, you should go after Dave Jones to recover any money. It would explain why there was no mention of Crowdfunders deposits in the Statement .  I know the Statement is signed off by Dave Jones on 30th May , but 21 days in I hope the liquidator is taking some notice of the Crowdfunding situation and either restates the Statement or points out none of these funds are in the company he is liquidating

 

Bottom line is this statement tells us nothing about where these deposits went . Ltd company (why are they not listed as liabilities then?) or Sole Trader . Was there just confusion between the two in Daves mind or did DJModels Ltd exist only for his dealings with manufacturers in China and deposits received elsewhere

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Legend

[jjb1970]

12 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Surely if Dave owns the IP, then any manufacurer/commissioner using his tooling (which contains his IP) will be in violation of that?

 

What is more interesting is where things sit with the Adams O2, which I believe used tooling owned by KMRC, but designed by Dave. Similarly the Hattons 14XX.

 

I don't think Dave Jones designed anything, he may have acted as an intermediary between KMRC and the factory that actually designed the model but I think all the models which DJ claimed to have designed were designed by Chinese factories (for good or bad) which DJ's role being limited to signing off that he was good with the designs (even that was probably done by KMRC for their commissions).

[two tone green]

Is the BBC Rogue Traders program still on the telly? 

Edited June 26, 2019 by two tone green

[jjb1970]

5 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

 

Didn't at least one commissioner move their tooling and deal direct with the factory in the end?

 

I think just about all of his commissioning clients did that. And rather quickly. It is interesting that at least one of those clients had issues with Dapol when Dave Jones was at Dapol, transferred their commissioning work to DJM after he left Dapol and then quickly decided to deal with the factories directly. And have managed to bring their products to market an awful lot more quickly since doing so. Which kind of begs the question of what was happening at Dapol before he left too.

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

 

Didn't at least one commissioner move their tooling and deal direct with the factory in the end?

Kernow own the tooling for their models and that had, so I understand, long ago been settled and agreed with the factory.  And of course Kernow in any case took over control of various projects from DJM and dealt direct with the factory  Think about it this way - Kernow recently got their extremely nice D6XX out of the factory which DJM couldn't get the Class 92 CADs out of let alone the J94 and Class 71 tooling and whatever really existed of the Class 17 project.

 

There might be a moral in there somewhere but we've so far only heard DJM's side of it and the factory has said nothing (and probably never will).  I am inclined to believe what I can see with my own eyes - and that's lots of Kernow D6XX including my two.

[mozzer models]

4 minutes ago, two tone green said:

Is the BBC Rouge Traders program still on the telly? 

sort of its now part or watchdog

 

[RedgateModels]

8 minutes ago, two tone green said:

Is the BBC Rouge Traders program still on the telly? 

 

Well I hope Dave is suitably red faced by this point  .....