DJM - Statement of Affairs released

[polybear]

6 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

Here is a thought. 

His suggestion was that as they were not recorded or shown as creditors then they were not bona fide company invoices, also with him receiving the monies into his personal account he could be pursued personally through the small claims court for reimbursement.

There is obviously a cost to this and no guarantee of success, but it did put another angle on it.

 

A crowd-funded RMWeb Members small-claims court procedure could be entertaining.....

I have wondered why his OH (?) banged out of being a Director not so long along (IIRC from an earlier post).  Maybe she could see what was happening and wanted to keep well clear?  

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Fenman said:

 

I don’t actually have any sympathy for Dave. The word I used was compassion. 

 

Your last para is a statement I think we can we can all agree with. 

 

Paul

I don’t have any compassion for Dave either.

 

I think he’s been very clever or been accidentally lucky in as many ways he was always seemingly to be telling us how unlucky he was.

 

I feel sorry for those losing out.

“Crowdfunding” (Pre-payments) is a loaded deck and it’s not in favour of those paying in, I was sceptical before, it’s just reinforced now, even if others may have better credibility and track records, the weaknesses are exposed, the prepay model is built on trust alone and is easily exploited, before I prepay in the future I will be looking to see what assets that promoter has to risk... if it’s nothing more than a smile than all it will see is a wry smile back.

 

That’s just my own opinion formed based on the events I’ve seen.

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by adb968008

[hayfield]

7 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

Here is a thought. 

 

Chatting to the accountant today about company matters and I mentioned this case, I mentioned that the early APT invoices were paid into DJ's personal paypal account and that invoices didn't have a VAT number on them. I said he had entered into voluntary liquidation and his initial statement was missing the many crowdfunders as creditors with just himself as the major creditor along with a trader and FC.     His suggestion was that as they were not recorded or shown as creditors then they were not bona fide company invoices, also with him receiving the monies into his personal account he could be pursued personally through the small claims court for reimbursement.

There is obviously a cost to this and no guarantee of success, but it did put another angle on it.

 

 

As I thought in one of my previous replies, the little I know from my previous business training is that a Limited Company is a totally entity from those who run it, directors personal accounts have nothing to do with the companies they own. 

[hayfield]

8 hours ago, JSpencer said:

DJM  said he had the monies on each project ringfenced and money from one project was not used on another, but when I saw how many such ventures he launched, I was worried at a certain point that he might have been heading in a direction of having several crowdfunding projects taking payments to get one of them completed and then launching dozens more to pay for the several. That fortunately never happened. 

 

 

Sounds very much like the first builder we had on our extension, who took too much on, got their sums wrong, then used funds from one job to top up other jobs and vice versa. Not dishonest, just got themself in a mess which then escalated, this person from what I could gather previously had a business go down 

[roythebus]

23 hours ago, grahame said:

 

I suspect that the money raised by DJM (be it deposits, crowdfunding payments, loans, etc) has been spent on more than just CAD, and includes directors salary/withdrawals, travel costs (trips to China), advertising (in magazines and forums), website development, loan interest repayments and generally running the company. And I guess it's all gone - hence liquidation of the company and any assets it might have (not that they are worth anything).

 

G 

Spot on, providing the money wasn't mis-spent on things not business-related. I would suggest DJM had more of a cash flow problem. I had this sort of conversation with the MD of London Buses back in the 1990s when I ran my bus company.

 

We tendered for a substantial south London bus route but wasn't awarded it. It wuld have made the company a decent profit. but we had the problems to find finance to lease or buy the new buses specified. that wasn't a problem with leasing as the lease company can always take those back. The cash flow problems would have arisen by having to find funds for the 30-odd driving staff, training and development costs, as well as the daily running costs like fuel, road tax and insurance.

 

Maybe this is what the problem was with DJM. He personally needs cash to live on; unless he has other personal fortunes then like everyone, he needs regular cash coming in to buy tea bags and the daily essentials. And if it were the case of losing a house which may have been used as a guarantee for a loan or shutting the company, I know what I would do. On plastic model development we are talking of tens of thousands of £££s for CAD and tooling costs. that money has to come form somewhere. The moulds for my VGA van kit in the 1980s cost me personally  well over £7000; a loco is likely to cost over £100k and that has to come from somewhere. So having spent the personal fortune and borrowed money on R&D, if there's money that has been lent on a personal level to the company, then it makes sense to get that money back just to carry on living. My company went down owing me personally over £93k and I never recovered a penny of that.

 

I feel for those who have lost relatively small amounts crowd funding models, but on the scale of things if 1000 have paid £50, it's like peeing in the ocean on the total cost of the project. Maybe this episode will see the end of crowd-funding. None of you will get a penny back sorry to say.

 

Dave is probably wise to avoid answering posts on fora such as this one; it would take an awful lot of his time and achieve nothing. Move on, accept you've lost a bit of money on a bet and get on with life. The liquidators will get whatever is in the bank after preferential creditors have been paid (staff wages). I doubt they will do much more than the statutory duties permit as they don't work for free.

[DavidH]

8 hours ago, JSpencer said:

From day one, when so many products were announced and he even had CADs for them

 

Or did he? Quite easy to mock up a CAD-style drawing in Photoshop or similar programme if you have the knowledge, and require an image for your product announcements. No intent to deceive, I should add, just a wish to make the product announcement look better.

 

8 hours ago, JSpencer said:

He even commented at the time that he would not announce anything else for 2 years as he thought people would be complaining about non delivery

 

Dave spun us the idea that crowdfunding simply meant he could slip in a non-main range model and do it quicker. I'm afraid that despite a few sceptical voices at the time, most accepted this.

 

[JSpencer]

8 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

But don't forget Dave had "form".  His previous respray business went under, and he has clearly had issues filing his accounts and tax in the last couple of years. 

 

Did he learn anything from his previous business collapse ? Leopards and spots etc.

 

 

Some very top business people failed badly in their early lives. But the difference is they learned from them which eventually lead to success. It seems here he did not recognise it had failed and/or why it failed and/or did not learn from them. History repeats itself........

 

 

[melmoth]

2 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

Some very top business people failed badly in their early lives. But the difference is they learned from them which eventually lead to success. It seems here he did not recognise it had failed and/or why it failed and/or did not learn from them. History repeats itself........

 

 

 

Then there are perhaps those who recognise that their business has failed and why it has failed, and learn from this how to let history repeat itself to their advantage

[JSpencer]

2 minutes ago, DavidH said:

 

Or did he? Quite easy to mock up a CAD-style drawing in Photoshop or similar programme if you have the knowledge, and require an image for your product announcements. No intent to deceive, I should add, just a wish to make the product announcement look better.

 

 

We know that happened for a class 74 image. Whereby a CAD image of a class 71 was photoshopped to look like a 74 (there was no cliam at the time that this was an official CAD though). We also from that that he used an expert in photoshop to do this. So the CADs were probably real enough.

[JSpencer]

1 minute ago, melmoth said:

 

Then there are perhaps those who recognise that their business has failed and why it has failed, and learn from this how to let history repeat itself to their advantage

 

Yep, some people learn best by 1st hand experience, others by books/media, others in the class etc etc. And then there are those who never learn or forget what they learn.

[DavidH]

Just now, JSpencer said:

 

We know that happened for a class 74 image. Whereby a CAD image of a class 71 was photoshopped to look like a 74 (there was no cliam at the time that this was an official CAD though). We also from that that he used an expert in photoshop to do this. So the CADs were probably real enough.

 

No claim, but a forum assumption created by statements like this?

[Widnes Model Centre]

39 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I don’t have any compassion for Dave either.

 

I think he’s been very clever or been accidentally lucky in as many ways he was always seemingly to be telling us how unlucky he was.

 

I feel sorry for those losing out.

“Crowdfunding” (Pre-payments) is a loaded deck and it’s not in favour of those paying in, I was sceptical before, it’s just reinforced now, even if others may have better credibility and track records, the weaknesses are exposed, the prepay model is built on trust alone and is easily exploited, before I prepay in the future I will be looking to see what assets that promoter has to risk... if it’s nothing more than a smile than all it will see is a wry smile back.

 

That’s just my own opinion formed based on the events I’ve seen.

 

 

I know where my sympathies lie. Crowdfunders, Durham Trains of Stanley, Kernow, Digitrains, Hattons, the Chinese Factories and anyone else that you can add to that list.

 

No sympathy and no compassion for DJM, why would I?

 

If the Man on the Clapham Omnibus was asked where his sympathies lay, I believe it wouldn't make good reading for Mr Jones. But would Mr Jones try and talk him into investing in a RTR of the Omnibus? Probably.

 

Appearances on other forums and his zenportfolio show what I believe to be the true character. Legal advice or whatever, there is no way I could do something like this without at least attempting a public apology, be it by proxy or whatever.

 

I definitely point the finger at DJ and accuse him of a "Wasted Opportunity".

 

Has he been dishonest? That is again down to that man on the Omnibus. But knowing what you know now and this was pointed out by many particularly on another forum over four years ago, would you have paid up?

 

If the answer is "No" then were you deceived into paying out your hard earned or otherwise money? I wasn't deceived but I knew that when I paid out for the goodness of our shop, I had seen the last of my hard earned.

 

I think I am right in the fact that he often used the term "mea culpa" with a matey jokey reply. In Plain English I Blame HIm.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

36 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I don’t have any compassion for Dave either.

 

I think he’s been very clever or been accidentally lucky in as many ways he was always seemingly to be telling us how unlucky he was.

 

I feel sorry for those losing out.

“Crowdfunding” (Pre-payments) is a loaded deck and it’s not in favour of those paying in, I was sceptical before, it’s just reinforced now, even if others may have better credibility and track records, the weaknesses are exposed.

 

That’s just my own opinion formed based on the events I’ve seen.

 

There is an old saying that you can make your own luck.  Now I don't totally subscribe to that but I have no doubt at all that if you start a business and hope to make it a success you have to give it a vast amount of your time and attention.  A very successful chap was talking yesterday in a radio interview and he said that with one of his businesses he was putting 80-90 hours a week into it and never took any holidays for several years - maybe that was partly why he got to be a multi-millionaire.

 

If you have customers paying you considerable sums of money to look after a project for them then you should be 100% on their case and chasing any problems quickly when they arise.  And if your business is raking in substantial 5 figure sums you should be reinvesting that money along with your time to build your business.   If you are acting as an intermediary between your customer and a factory or whatever which is actually doing the work you need to be making clear and timely communication in both directions and not leaving things 'until you get round to them'.   If you don't do those things you stand a good chance of failing to satisfy customers and that will encourage them to go elsewhere and spend their money more wisely.

 

If you don't press on with fast, accurate, progress you could lose out to competitors' products.  If you don't listen out for news about what potential competitors might be doing and disregard with more than a hint of bravado then you will be beaten to market - however high your opinion of your own abilities might be.  And if you don't do that when you have got a fairly reliable income stream for your company you are going to finish up having to find a way of financing things when that income stream dries up.   If you don't do or deliver whatever you have said you were going to do and deliver your wider customer base will lose faith in your business and you.   And if you have to resort - as an established business - to crowd funding you need to manage it properly and judiciously and spend the money on what your customers have paid for.

 

If all of these shortcomings finally come to head, helped on their way their by chaotic non-management of your businesses' finances, its invoicing, checking of deliveries, and taking too much money out of the business, you will probably end up with the business in liquidation - even if you still have a smile on your face.   And if that failure involves other people losing their money your reputation will no doubt end up exactly where it should have been consigned as many of the previous shortcomings I have listed above became apparent.

[The Stationmaster]

12 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

We know that happened for a class 74 image. Whereby a CAD image of a class 71 was photoshopped to look like a 74 (there was no cliam at the time that this was an official CAD though). We also from that that he used an expert in photoshop to do this. So the CADs were probably real enough.

I'm not sure if that is strictly accurate where you say 'that he used an expert in Photoshop to do this' so I am reporting the post in order that the person who who did that illustration can put the record straight.

[AY Mod]

33 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I'm not sure if that is strictly accurate where you say 'that he used an expert in Photoshop to do this' so I am reporting the post in order that the person who who did that illustration can put the record straight.

 

At the time of announcement of the 74 Dave asked me, as I had a view copy of the Class 71 CAD, if I could do a mock-up of the 74 end - not to deceive anyone that the CAD was at that stage but purely as an illustration. In hindsight I should have told him no, not because it was deceitful in any way but because, ultimately, too much use was made of 'favours' in general without Dave himself acquiring skills and putting leg-work in himself to do something which someone in that position should be doing.

 

It was originally mentioned as I'd personally pressed Dave on this on 5th April 2018 (along with a very long list of concerns*) that there was no evidence that anyone had done any work on the 74 whatsoever beyond the photoshop mock-up of one end. Consequent to that Dave could not provide proof to Kernow that there had been any progress hence their laudable decision to put a stop to the process. We know that Kernow took a hit on costs in doing so but it was about doing the right thing at the right time, especially in hindsight. I understand Dave had offered to cover some of those costs incurred but I don't believe that ever happened.

 

* Any responses to the concerns raised did not allay the fears I had on any of the points made.

[d9002]

Stationmaster's observation with regard to the time and effort involved in starting and developing a business properly is profoundly correct.

When my (now ex) wife and I set up a small tea parlour, the hours and effort involved were stupendous.

Certainly we had neither time nor funds to take holidays and cruises in such various exotic locations as the Caribbean, South America, South East Asia, Iceland,  India, Nepal..........

Edited July 3, 2019 by d9002

[Widnes Model Centre]

6 minutes ago, d9002 said:

Stationmaster's observation with regard to the time and effort involved in starting and developing a business properly is profoundly correct.

When my (now ex) wife and I set up a small tea parlour, the hours and effort involved were stupendous.

Certainly we had neither time nor funds to take holidays and cruises in such various exotic locations as the Caribbean, South America, South East Asia, Iceland,  India, Nepal..........

 

We have been trading for just over eight years. One week in Cornwall, just the wife, I stayed behind.

 

Things have massively improved since then and we can be found in North Wales most Sundays and even on some Thursdays. Unless there is a trade show on any of them days.

 

[GWR-fan]

Many years ago I recall reading a story in a condensed readers digest magazine of a trainee captain berthing a large supertanker in full view of the owner of the shipping line.  Alas, at the last moment there was a resounding crash as the tanker collided with the wharf causing considerable damage.   The trainee captain looked to the owner and stated that he would resign his commission.  The owner replied, "Why would I accept your resignation, it just cost me $10,000,000.00 to train you".

 

Now if DJ had learned by his past mistakes then perhaps he also would have learned something and not bring crowdfunding into possible disrepute for those reputable providers intent on delivering product in a timely manner.

[melmoth]

45 minutes ago, d9002 said:

Stationmaster's observation with regard to the time and effort involved in starting and developing a business properly is profoundly correct.

When my (now ex) wife and I set up a small tea parlour, the hours and effort involved were stupendous.

Certainly we had neither time nor funds to take holidays and cruises in such various exotic locations as the Caribbean, South America, South East Asia, Iceland,  India, Nepal..........

 

30 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

We have been trading for just over eight years. One week in Cornwall, just the wife, I stayed behind.

 

Things have massively improved since then and we can be found in North Wales most Sundays and even on some Thursdays. Unless there is a trade show on any of them days.

 

 

Secondhand bookseller here, so in all honesty I'm sure I have it easier in some ways as just about any fool can fill a room with books and open it to the general public (and I worked for a few of them in the past), but since 2014 all I've managed by way of holiday is four days in Hayle. And rain, and wind, and freezing sleet (it was in Janaury).  Monty Python's Four Yorkshiremen is up next...

[etendam]

There was a similar case in the Netherlands with Palo-modeltreinen. They went broke after a huge number of people had paid a decent amount to get a build brass locomotive. The actual steps in the process could be followed on his website and lot's of things in the development did go wrong - Mostly the blame of others of course...parts that didn't meet the required standards etc (I just call that no experience with shrinkage, under etching etc) After a long period and still no modeltrains (Just selling off the wrong etch plates) the company finally went in liquidation.

 

What lot's of people have learned from this was that lot's of buyers will NEVER make deposits again to get a model. (they rather wait to get a used one when they are sold out) So others in the market (who did release excellent models and are working hard AND honest to get something made) where affected by this as well and less models have been released for a while.

It is now that Piko is producing "Dutch" models again that the market is finally growing again.

 

Ed

[AY Mod]

I've taken a look at the Companies House entries for Final Accounts to be created as part of the liquidation of for other businesses where CG Recovery have handled the process and it seems that it takes 8-12 months where the situation is comparatively straightforward, the examples I looked at had a small number of unsecured creditors. So don't expect anything illuminating any time soon.

 

However, they do seem to have the mechanisms to proceed even if full information isn't made available to them as shown in this example.

 

[Talltim]

4 hours ago, roythebus said:

The moulds for my VGA van kit in the 1980s cost me personally  well over £7000;

I've just realised who you are. My dad built me one of the kits, still got it somewhere.

[spikey]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

... A very successful chap was talking yesterday in a radio interview and he said that with one of his businesses he was putting 80-90 hours a week into it and never took any holidays for several years - maybe that was partly why he got to be a multi-millionaire ...

 

Nice to know that there may have been other reasons why he got to be a multi-millionaire, 'cos I put the hours in and did without the holidays with three businesses in succession, and all we ended up with was a good reputation, no debts and a very modest lifestyle!

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, spikey said:

all we ended up with was a good reputation, no debts and a very modest lifestyle!

 

At least you can sleep at night. You may not have masses to show for the effort but at least it wasn't at the expense of others and have a millstone to carry for years. I don't mean that to sound glib as I know just how much can be taken up by making something work.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, melmoth said:

 

 

Secondhand bookseller here, so in all honesty I'm sure I have it easier in some ways as just about any fool can fill a room with books and open it to the general public (and I worked for a few of them in the past), but since 2014 all I've managed by way of holiday is four days in Hayle. And rain, and wind, and freezing sleet (it was in Janaury).  Monty Python's Four Yorkshiremen is up next...

About 30 years ago I dabbled in secondhand records, books, etc but I was hardly making a profit from doing it in my non-dayjob hours. It wasn't just the time taken in selling, mostly at fairs with a bit of mail order, but getting and checking stock, lugging the stuff backwards and forwards, etc.

I recently found my old cash book from the venture and it showed I was right not to continue as in two years I had barely made a profit other than my stock, most of which ended up being sold a car boot and raising a couple of hundred pounds. At least a few of the items I didn't sell off cheap made a bit on Ebay in later years.