DJM - Statement of Affairs released

[grahame]

2 minutes ago, d9002 said:

The Class 17 was indeed originally a "pre-order" with no monies submitted, but then became a "cry for help" in the respect that he asked for payment "up front"to enable the project to proceed. However, when the tooling ownership problem arose, he put the Class 17 project on indefinite hold and (so far as I am aware) regunded all those who [paid in advance.....myself included

 

Thanks. As I suspected and was trying to explain.

 

G

[johnofwessex]

I have never had anything to do with DJM & have just stumbled on the thread, but looking at the price that is asked for DMU's/EMU's a 'full sized' APT strikes me as a most unlikely project.  Not many layouts have the room for it, let alone the possible price.

[Roy L S]

9 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Thanks. As I suspected and was trying to explain.

 

G

 

To be clear though it was not a crowdfunded model, and was never declared as such, it was one of DJM's own list of projects and was also available to pre-order through DJM's retailer network (the likes of Hattons etc).

 

Those who paid up front had a simple enough contract with DJM, up front payment in exchange ultimately for a completed model. 

[grahame]

5 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

 

To be clear though it was not a crowdfunded model, and was never declared as such, it was one of DJM's own list of projects and was also available to pre-order through DJM's retailer network (the likes of Hattons etc).

 

 

Yep, as I mentioned (see my post previous page). It was one of the early list of DJM non-crowdfunded N gauge products along with the class 23, a saddle tank and later added to with others including a class 59, GWR mogul (which did later become crowdfunded) and several wagons including the mermaid and shark.

 

One issue with DJM is the way he blurred the funding distinction between each project over time, how they subtley changed as problems were encountered and the way new announcements continually added to the list.

 

G.

[Roy L S]

2 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

 

 

One issue with DJM is the way he blurred the funding distinction between each project over time, how they subtley changed as problems were encountered and the way new announcements continually added to the list.

 

G.

Totally agree Grahame, smoke and mirrors, a good talker with an answer for most things, allowing an impression of credibility to be maintained. The 92 Newsletter from Feb 19 illustrates the point, all was good, a lot of waffle about CAD files and...… just a few "tweeks" to go, nearly there, tooling soon.... 

 

The reality?....

 

Roy

[Simon Lee]

1 hour ago, Roy L S said:

Totally agree Grahame, smoke and mirrors, a good talker with an answer for most things, allowing an impression of credibility to be maintained. The 92 Newsletter from Feb 19 illustrates the point, all was good, a lot of waffle about CAD files and...… just a few "tweeks" to go, nearly there, tooling soon.... 

 

The reality?....

 

Roy

And Chinese New Year which seemed to come as a total surprise every year.

[woodenhead]

3 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

Were things really so optimistic but just a few months ago?

 

https://djmodels.co.uk/oo-gauge-class-92-status-update

 

Reading that I see QVC and Ideal World.

 

Some carefully crafted words that make you feel if you don't know what he means youre stupid so you play along.

 

The cad was always a couple of tweaks from tooling and for him to say those that know it's something really special was to stop anyone criticising.

[wellseasoned]

Some of us put our faith in him to come up with the goods and deliver. Others were more sceptical and were is some cases holding back to see if and what he delivered.  Having paid deposits for two Kings I sent him personal emails on a few occasions. The last one was to voice my concern at his lack of updates to people who had paid deposits.
He could certainly convey things how he wanted them to be perceived, would sometimes rant a bit and point the finger at others for his predicaments. I doubt we will ever get to know what really occurred within DJM.
What I do think is he is finished in the manufacturing side of model railways. This episode must surely have sealed his fate.

I'm not so sure it would even be wise for him to attend an exhibition as a paying visitor with the levels of hostility toward him. 

[AY Mod]

On 05/07/2019 at 11:34, brittannia said:

I do wonder what was the deciding factor on the decision not to refund ALL payments,

 

Reassemble these elements into chronological order.

 

19 hours ago, Andy Mac said:

 

1. The OO APT initially had the numbers plus a small buffer to cover for folk dropping out.  

 

2. Then we had all the negativity on the forum, coupled to the PayPal withdrawing their permission to use their service.  Then after the money had been refunded, just over half continued to be crowdfunders in the project.  

 

12 hours ago, d9002 said:

3. The Class 17 was indeed originally a "pre-order" with no monies submitted, but then became a "cry for help" in the respect that he asked for payment "up front"to enable the project to proceed. However, when the tooling ownership problem arose, he put the Class 17 project on indefinite hold and (so far as I am aware) refunded all those who [paid in advance.....myself included.

 

[brittannia]

3 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Reassemble these elements into chronological order.

 

 

 

My payments were well in advance of the above listed events, presumably 2016/17 payments were not a problem to PayPal at the time, thanks for listing the above

[d9002]

I have located the email from DJM with regards to the Class 17 saga and should anyone be interested, I will send it to them in a PM rather than clutter up this thread with it.

I had no need for either a Class 92 or APT so was not involved in that ...toyed with a "King" but the alarm bells were starting to become quite strident by then

Edited July 8, 2019 by d9002
Amendment and clarification

[melmoth]

9 hours ago, woodenhead said:

 

The cad was always a couple of tweaks from tooling 

 

You talking about the design or the designer?

Edited July 8, 2019 by melmoth
mispeeeling

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

Were things really so optimistic but just a few months ago?

 

https://djmodels.co.uk/oo-gauge-class-92-status-update

 

I understand there is a sort of advertising and marketing approach known as 'a teaser'.  The idea being let you let your potential customers know something about what is coming so - and the form varies of course - it might not state what is actually coming (an announcement of an announcement), or it gives some details with hints of more to follow, or it gives an idea of progress made with hints of what might/will happen next.

 

Whatever else might or might not be said about DJ's competence in running a business I think we should acknowledge that he was very competent when it came to this sort of thing and there were lashings of jam tomorrow.  But the realists among us often took the time to compare the hints and promises with past achievements. especially where there wasn't a business customer in the background to push for progress on their project, work for which they were paying, and which they could often measure against deadlines or 'promised rates of progress'.

[njee20]

A friend of mine set up a webshop selling some cosmetics his wife was producing. He said that he saw a measurable boost in sales when he put a countdown timer on the site. Didn't countdown to anything at all, nor did it say it was. People are weird when it comes to a fear of missing out and shopping habits!

[JSpencer]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I understand there is a sort of advertising and marketing approach known as 'a teaser'.  The idea being let you let your potential customers know something about what is coming so - and the form varies of course - it might not state what is actually coming (an announcement of an announcement), or it gives some details with hints of more to follow, or it gives an idea of progress made with hints of what might/will happen next.

 

Whatever else might or might not be said about DJ's competence in running a business I think we should acknowledge that he was very competent when it came to this sort of thing and there were lashings of jam tomorrow.  But the realists among us often took the time to compare the hints and promises with past achievements. especially where there wasn't a business customer in the background to push for progress on their project, work for which they were paying, and which they could often measure against deadlines or 'promised rates of progress'.

 

I am not sure if he was that competent with his advertising of lashings of jam for tomorrow. He had quite a hard time building up the numbers for his products, even in early days with Kernow's guarantees.

I was relatively happy with the Well tank (which has since died) and O2s (still going). However the austerities (I brought 2 at once) were dreadful performers. One went up in smoke and was sent back (Wilfred, I did not ask for a refund neither for the loco of postage, why should a preservation society suffer?) and replaced. 

The 71, I was expecting to like the Dapol 73, ok the latter had bearing pickup issues and I was not keen on the off center bogie pivots, but they really look the part, perform well and easy to fit DCC sound (I have 4 of them). The 71 indeed is similar to the 73 in most respects except given stiff bogies (derails every where) and for some, lacks grunt.

People were becoming weary of his products. But worse still he never answers his mails. 

Problems with the server, problems with the website, problems with payment systems, problems even with accountant and suppliers. The jam was constantly being delayed due to these and other factors. This endless seeded doubts in a lot of minds which consequently made project extremely hard to launch.

[millerhillboy]

23 hours ago, Roy L S said:

Hi Grahame

 

It was full payment for a twin set in green (dummy and powered) and a weathered single, just found the details, total cost was £274.45. Refunded in full.

 

Roy

 

 

I too had ordered the twin set in green with the single dummy and received a full paypal refund of by the looks of things £149.95 without any issue.

 

I also saw the EP of the 17 at the Perth show which looked good but rather oddly and I recall thinking this at the time that Dave wouldn't let me look at closely or touch.

 

Not touching I could somewhat understand and I didn't know if this was the norm or not. I had made him aware I'd bought a pair but he seemed weirdly reluctant  for it to be examined in any way.

Edited July 8, 2019 by millerhillboy

[rab]

On 06/07/2019 at 01:34, maico said:

 

In the Marklin Trix magazine they show a loco body being produced by 3 D printing. I would imagine that is the future.

You may well be right but from the limited experience I've had of 3D printing it is not suitable for large or even medium production runs. In the time taken to produce one 3D printed component, an injection moulding machine can produce a few hundred if not thousands 

[rab]

It just occurred to me that if there was a quid for every

DJM related post on this forum, we could be quite a way

to repaying those who have lost out.

[Buhar]

19 minutes ago, rab said:

You may well be right but from the limited experience I've had of 3D printing it is not suitable for large or even medium production runs. In the time taken to produce one 3D printed component, an injection moulding machine can produce a few hundred if not thousands 

Do Rails of Sheffield share your view?  Their 3D printed LBSC van was a fair size run.

[Roy L S]

 

 

2 hours ago, millerhillboy said:

I too had ordered the twin set in green with the single dummy and received a full paypal refund of by the looks of things £149.95 without any issue.

 

I also saw the EP of the 17 at the Perth show which looked good but rather oddly and I recall thinking this at the time that Dave wouldn't let me look at closely or touch.

 

Not touching I could somewhat understand and I didn't know if this was the norm or not. I had made him aware I'd bought a pair but he seemed weirdly reluctant  for it to be examined in any way.

That's a very odd reaction on the part of DJ.

 

I saw it at TINGS 2017 (I think) on the Mercig stand. I was allowed to handle it and give it a good look over, it looked pretty good for an EP1. If it was any kind of mock up it didn't look like one to me (Or I am such a dummy myself I was convinced so failed to see it!).

 

Roy

 

 

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

Definitely not a mock up, DJ himself put pictures of the tools online here...

 

This follow up post of DJ is just pure UK TV Gold looking back..

 

Quote

Having seen, held and gently stroked the class 17, I'm pleased to confirm that the latest DJM vapourware will be on display at Perth tomorrow (Saturday) morning from 10.30am

 

Anymore of this bringing new models out malarkey, and those doubting thomases with nothing good to say about anything, might just shut up for a change and realise I'm here and staying here. 

 

Now where's that vapourware gif when you need it? Anyone? Lol

Post below..

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by adb968008

[Covkid]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Definitely not a mock up, DJ himself put pictures of the tools online here...

 

This follow up post of DJ is just pure UK TV Gold looking back..

 

Post below..

 

Curious that Dave got as far as EP1 on a project which no other company had embarked on, then converted it back into "vapourware".  Or was this one of the project where those nasty Chinese people wouldn't let Dave use his own stuff ?

 

[roythebus]

I don't know if anyone else here has had experience of getting plastic moulding toold made. I have, and it takes a long time. As I metioned erleir, I produced a kit for the VGA van back in the 1980s.

 

K's were contracted to do the moulds and and make the kits. The cost of the tooling was from memory around £7000 for what was a fairly simple box van. Maybe the most complex part was the axleboxes with springs, an ornate moulding and lovely bit of toolmaking. However, it took far more months than I ever expected having the tooling done. Many times I asked Ks when I could visit to see how the work was progressing, many times I was fobbed off with excuses, the daftest probably they were waiting for the release pins that eject part from the moulds. 

 

Luckily I financed the production myself with money I got as compensation from an industrial accident as a train driver. 

 

But it goes to show that delays in production are nothing new in the model railway business, nor are people who take money and don't make the goods.

[John M Upton]

7 hours ago, Covkid said:

Curious that Dave got as far as EP1 on a project which no other company had embarked on, then converted it back into "vapourware".  Or was this one of the project where those nasty Chinese people wouldn't let Dave use his own stuff ?

 

 

The Class 17 tooling was probably the first major spat between DJ and the Chinese factory (I always got the impression that Dave thought the tooling was his property but it turned out it wasn't) so presumably it's still locked away in a cupboard in China awaiting someone to stump up the cash to continue its development and production which, as we know now, Dave didn't have. 

 

Still hoping the Class 17 will see production one day but the more realistic part of my mind says the tooling is destined for the melting pot...

[RedgateModels]

13 hours ago, JSpencer said:

However the austerities (I brought 2 at once) were dreadful performers. One went up in smoke and was sent back

 

Late now I know, but the smoke may have come from a component on the blanking plug or the pcb it plugs into, scrape the remains off with a sharp knife and they work fine. OK maybe RF suppression might be not as it should be but the loco should still run.