Hornby R024 Clerestory Coach

[Johann Marsbar]

Given the dire weather here this morning, I have been spending some time looking through my pile of old manufacturers catalogues and noticed something that had not registered with me before - though it was about 20+ years ago since I last looked at the booklet in question (!).

In the Hornby Catalogue for 1973 (Edition 19) they had just reintroduced their two clerestory coaches into the range, in the "teak" LNER livery. The caption for the R024 (R24) composite coach states that it is "based on a design originally introduced by the Great Eastern Railway" .

Does anyone know if that statement is actually correct, and, if so, what carriages were they based on?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

My recollection is that these coach mouldings were based on GWR designs (and quite how closely those designs were followed was probably 'Triangesque'). The GER had coaches with some similar features, so with faux teak applied they chameleonised into this new identity.

[gwrrob]

These short clerestory's have no known prototype. A work of fiction.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Please also note that these coaches are just shells. They have no interior and are very light in weight. They are also quite short in length. 

[Londontram]

It's not all bad with a bit of cutting and shutting a new roof and a set of white metal "Fox" bogies they can make a more than passable Caledonian 45ft carriage.

  Steve

 

Ps its not just that simple obviously as you have to cut away the GWR style commode handles and make new underframe detail etc but the panel detail is a good base to start with

Edited June 25, 2019 by Londontram

[Il Grifone]

They are based (loosely)* on GWR designs and, while not accurate for any of them, are sufficiently close to be modified into something  a bit nearer. As regards other railways, they are not likely to be even that close. The Midland version, for example, would have the wrong design of clerestory. The BR Mk I bogies can go straight in the bin (rescue the metal wheels if fitted). The replacements will correct the ride height, which IMHO is the most blatant error.

* Like the Tri-ang 'Hall', it's obvious what it's supposed to be, but....

Edited June 25, 2019 by Il Grifone

[Dava]

I recall they appeared in a train set with a green 'Jinty' and also with the 'Railway Children' set, still available at swapmeets. Have been used to deputies for GCR suburbans [by Peter Denny?].

 

Dava 

[The Johnster]

They originally date back to 1962 and were intended to run with Lord of the Isles, a quite brave initiative from Triang in those days.  They are based on GW prototypes but are both a compartment too short, which has not stopped them being used as such on countless layouts over the years including mine (as miner's workman's coaches).  The underframe detail is in line with Triang practice of the time, and consists of a a separate moulding for the trusses, vacuum cylinders, and gas cylinders all represented albeit crudely, which attaches to the floor of the coach bodyshell.  Bogies are acceptable models of the B1s from the concurrent 9 inch mk1 Triang stock, and completely fictional for a Dean GW coach though they have the correct wheelbase.  As has been said, there is no attempt at even a basic interior.

 

More modern versions have the bogies, still B1s, as 'plug in' types as opposed to the earlier riveted type.  I've worked mine up a bit with compartment dividers, seats, clerestory glazing, lamp irons, and decent buffers, and have made ersatz Dean 8'6" bogies by cutting the tiebars off the B1s and attaching footboards; this makes for a considerable improvement.  They are more GW than anything else, but this has not stopped Triang, Triang Hornby, and Hornby bringing them out as Midland and ex-GER LNER 'teak' liveried coaches.  

 

Despite LOTI being available in full Edwardian livery, they have never been available in lined out livery suitable for running with it.  OTOH, Hornby's gangwayed clerestories are fully lined but the panelling is not moulded (these have also appeared as Midland vehicles), so one cannot update to later liveries.  

[Steamport Southport]

Still in the catalogue in GWR livery.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/430448/hornby_r4913_gwr_clerestory_third_corridor_coach_in_gwr_chocolate_and_cream_railroad_range/stockdetail.aspx

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/430449/hornby_r4914_gwr_clerestory_brake_third_coach_in_gwr_chocolate_and_cream_railroad_range/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

 

Jason

[drduncan]

21 hours ago, Londontram said:

It's not all bad with a bit of cutting and shutting a new roof and a set of white metal "Fox" bogies they can make a more than passable Caledonian 45ft carriage.

  Steve

 

Ps its not just that simple obviously as you have to cut away the GWR style commode handles and make new underframe detail etc but the panel detail is a good base to start with

Can you post how you did it and which coaches can be done?

DrDuncan

[Londontram]

Hello Dr D

 

 Hmm got to tax my brain as I've not touched them for a while now and I've got to try and remember what I  did but I recall the two compartment ends off the Hornby brake third back to back make a good copy of the Caledonian McIntosh diagram 47 48ft coach these were introduced cir late 1890s and lasted through to the 1930s all of these had electric lighting.

  247 developments do a cast Fox bogie of suitable size I  believe and I'm sure there are others.

 

 The other Hornby which is a comp can be used body wise as is which is a close copy of the Lambie diagram 26 45ft comp. The body is a tad over at a 4mm scale size of 46ft but it's not noticeable.

 If I  recall I  used a mix of the comp and brake third to make a diagram 21 brake comp with central guards and small luggage compartment.

The only ones that need a bit of scratch building is the diagram 34 Caley brake third which needs a new end with windows also the doors panel work and guards duckets generally rearranging bit it is do able. 

 Now if you can live with a fault the left over brake sections off the brake thirds can be shut together to make a very convincing diagram 17 6 wheel full brake.

  As I said there is a fault that there a blank panel short each side bit it's one of those things that unless you know you would never notice.

 

 For things like the removal of the commode handles the raised sections can be shaved away easally and I found one of those fine Jewlers screw drives of the right width could be used to "dig" out chissle fashion the recessed sections of the door handles 

 

  Hope this helps and gives a few ideas

  Steve

Edit added

 Here's a couple of photos the first the two compartment sections of the Triang/Hornby brake third, when joined they make a good Macintosh 48ft full third.

 The final photo is of a couple of left over brake sections left over from the full third which will go to make a diagram 17 6 wheel full brake like the completed one to the right, you will have to get or build a suitable 6 wheel underframe for this

Edited June 26, 2019 by Londontram
Adding photos

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

Still in the catalogue in GWR livery.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/430448/hornby_r4913_gwr_clerestory_third_corridor_coach_in_gwr_chocolate_and_cream_railroad_range/stockdetail.aspx

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/430449/hornby_r4914_gwr_clerestory_brake_third_coach_in_gwr_chocolate_and_cream_railroad_range/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

 

Jason

Recently reintroduced along with the Dean Single, still 1962 spec except for plug in bogies, and low priced in recognition of this.  Seems H were aware of eBay demand and saw the chance ti make an honest bob.  

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Recently reintroduced

 

But it would seem not actually available.

 

[The Johnster]

'Available pre-order expected Autumn 2019' according to the website. in 'era 3' GWR shirtbutton monogram livery, for £18.99, so 'in the pipeline'.   The coaches are a brake 3rd and an all third, but the all third was originally a second class vehicle, and the difference in compartment spacing is correctly represented.  They lend themselves to cut and shut production of all thirds from 2 halves of brake 3rds, but no first class is represented and it is difficult to space the compartments correctly for 1st/3rd compostites, but are fine for my workman's trains in the early 50s...

 

These are typical Triang coaches of the era, pre 'scale length' mk1s, and are made as integral bodyshells with the underframe details bolted on; there is no separate chassis as such.  I may at some future date attempt to cut and shut mine into the correct length, which would enable proper underframe detail to be shown and 24/7 bogies attached, but there's plenty of other stuff on the 'to do' list first!  They scrub up into something acceptable for a '2' rule' modeller, though, and are adaptable to many late Victorian purposes; their own manufacturers have knocked them out as Midland and GER coaches and they 'look' the part.  Interestingly, the Midland versions were fully lined out, something never attempted with them as GW coaches. They still don't livery-match the Dean Single they are intended to accompany, either.

Edited June 26, 2019 by The Johnster

[melmoth]

The Triang Clerestories have also appeared in BR Crimson and Cream within the last 15 years or so, as part of a train set with an ex-LNER B12 in early BR express blue (!)

[RLWP]

15 minutes ago, melmoth said:

The Triang Clerestories have also appeared in BR Crimson and Cream within the last 15 years or so, as part of a train set with an ex-LNER B12 in early BR express blue (!)

 

And black for PW trains if I remember correctly

 

Richard

[RLWP]

Ahh, wrong - green!

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=857

 

Richard

[wainwright1]

The only one which had the panelling picked out in brown against the cream panels, but no lining, was the one in the Thomas range, but that had a face on the end of it !!!

[Dava]

8 minutes ago, RLWP said:

Ahh, wrong - green!

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=857

 

Richard

There was a black 'Engineer's Dept' coach too - I had one,

Dava

[gwrrob]

43 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

These are typical Triang coaches of the era, pre 'scale length' mk1s, and are made as integral bodyshells with the underframe details bolted on; there is no separate chassis as such.  I may at some future date attempt to cut and shut mine into the correct length, which would enable proper underframe detail to be shown and 24/7 bogies attached, but there's plenty of other stuff on the 'to do' list first!  

 

I don't suppose you have a photo of the underframe and chassis please.

[The Johnster]

1 minute ago, gwrrob said:

 

I don't suppose you have a photo of the underframe and chassis please.

Give me a few minutes and I'll take one and post it, gwrrob.

[The Johnster]

There you go.  The only difference in construction between this and the current model (I mean the one coming out in Autumn) is the plug in as opposed to bogies.  The somewhat crude ‘underframe’ is the black plastic moulding, and there is no underframe or chassis in the conventional sense.  I am not unduly aware of this when the coaches are in use. 

 

The footboards, incidentally, are real wood, Sainsbury’s coffee stirrers cut in half lengthways and trimmed to length.  Rebates are cut in to clear the axleboxes and the board simply superglued in place.  If you do no more to your shorties, do this and replace the buffers; it makes a huge difference!

 

Bachmann wheels run well enough in the original Triang bogies, which have had he tie bars cut out. 

[RLWP]

I have some earlier ones that have plain bearings running in holes in the axleboxes somewhere

 

Richard

[flyingsignalman]

In the early to mid 1960's there was a series of articles in the Model Railway Constructor about the Isle of Wight Railways and one article used these coaches as a basis for IOW stock.

 

A S/H coach (repainted into GW brown) that I had bought had been weighted using 2p coins, 5 I think, I haven't got inside to have a proper look.

[melmoth]

Just now, flyingsignalman said:

In the early to mid 1960's there was a series of articles in the Model Railway Constructor about the Isle of Wight Railways and one article used these coaches as a basis for IOW stock.

 

A S/H coach (repainted into GW brown) that I had bought had been weighted using 2p coins, 5 I think, I haven't got inside to have a proper look.

 

The late Terry Gough did a whole series of articles on cutting and shutting to produce various LSWR and LSBCR vehicles, but that was in Railway Modeller IIRC.