Sir TophamHatt Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 I usually don't bother with adding parts from the bag. My layout isn't a show one and some of the parts are so small that I wouldn't be able to tell if they were there or not. After fitting a Roco set of coaches with extra parts (first time for everything!), why do we have to? Is it just a case the parts are too small for the factory to do? Would it make the model way more expensive? I didn't enjoy it (does anyone?), and three parts per one side of bogie means 12 parts per coach... luckily only 4 coaches! The amount of dropping and finding the pieces again, just struck me as strange. I don't want to come off all "first world problems" but just genuinely wondered why my Class 4MT from Bachmann comes fully featured with loads of bits already on the loco, yet others don't? Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted June 26, 2019 Administrators Share Posted June 26, 2019 Cost. Someone has to put all those little bits on the models. Either the modeller does this for free, or someone in the factory has to be paid to do it. This then leads to people moaning about the cost, or complaining that it's terrible they have to attach the bits themselves. Manufacturers can't win, but it keeps forums like this one busy with the posts of one side or the other. Once upon a time, you didn't get the bag of bits, if you wanted that level of detail, you sourced parts from cottage industries or made the bits yourself. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 26, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2019 Cost and packaging. These small parts are prone to being knocked off in transit in the box no matter how well the item is packed, and even more prone to damage when the model is unpacked. Better to pack 'em in a separate bag where they won't get lost, and leave it to the customer to include them or not by choice. Models intended for use by young children, for example, on a family layout, are probably better off without them and you can store them until the kids are a bit more grown up. I usually leave the brake rigging off, but don't throw it away; I might grow up one day... Your 4MT is one of Baccy's older offerings, and while separate fiddly bits in a bag have been around for a long time now, this loco is a derivative of a very old Mainline tooling which predates it. Still a fine model, though, but needs working up with lamp irons and such. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted June 26, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2019 Also things like footsteps on steamers can foul bogies etc on setrack curves, so they are supplied for those with more prototypical layouts to add. I'm after a set of Bachmann steps for an 80xxx tank engine at the moment .... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 19 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said: ...I don't want to come off all "first world problems" but just genuinely wondered why my Class 4MT from Bachmann comes fully featured with loads of bits already on the loco, yet others don't?... This specific aspect has occasionally made me wonder: this one, every practical piece of detail installed, another relatively similar model from the same maker, whole lot of parts for user installation - and these are not confined to the 'discretionary' parts where the user needs to test to see if they will work on the smallest radius curve on the layout - and I cannot see any rhyme or reason to it. Then again I have been in manufacturing operations management, and when shorthanded/under-resourced/under the cosh/subject to all too frequent power outages, all sorts of unplanned and typically unrecorded short cuts occur. (You have to bite your lip when in front of the unhappy customer and the briefest examination of the offending item makes it clear that assembly stage 159 didn't do the job right.) Per Phil; happy to have the bits and pieces, attached or loose. Much easier than 'find or make'. But again slight puzzlement: this one has the potentially fouling footsteps in the detail pack, excellent. But this very similar model from the same maker doesn't, and one has to 'find or make'. 15 minutes ago, The Johnster said: ...Your 4MT is one of Baccy's older offerings... Well it might be. At last count I think there were five items in Bach's range that can carry the 4MT tag, and it is only the BR std 4MT 4-6-0 that derived from Mainline. The 'fully featured' item that sprang into my mind on reading the OP was Bach's Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0. Every bit of the copious external detail that it had been practical to reproduce was attached alright. ( A bit too attached, as detail parts bridged body and mechanism, cemented firmly both ends. Back to 'first world problems'...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traintresta Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 I have to install al of the parts on my trains. But then again, I am building kits :-D 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted June 26, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2019 I think this depends on the cost of doing so versus the extra revenue they can get for a detailed model by charging more. Bachmann is made in China; Roco is made in the EU where labour costs are higher. Phil is wrong in one respect: in the past details would often be moulded in place and this is no longer considered acceptable; remember "design clever"? (IMHO it might have been successful if it hadn't been given a name.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 On my N gauge models I am very happy that the details come separately. Yes they are a fiddle to fit but it means that on locos that don't need to go backwards and forwards pulling trains you can have one reasonable looking end and one end with a dirty great coupling on it. Overall in these days of such excellent RTR models it is good to have a bit of work to do ourselves. I think everyone should fit the loose details to at least one end of their locos. And they should add a little bit of weathering to take away that plastic look at the same time. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkSG Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Two main reasons. The first is hinted at in your own comment, "My layout isn't a show one and some of the parts are so small that I wouldn't be able to tell if they were there or not". Since fitting them at the factory would cost money, and not everybody needs them, it makes sense to leave them to the purchaser to fit. Otherwise, people like you, who don't need them, would be paying more for additional detailing that you won't appreciate just so that some other people can get everything they want pre-fitted. Secondly, a lot of detailing parts are genuinely optional from a prototypical point of view. Fitting some places the model in a particular location or era, and omitting them (or fitting different ones) places it in another. And sometimes they varied on the prototype, and you might want to have them the way you like them. The Rapido J70 is an excellent example of that - the detailing parts allow you to set it up however you want, rather than being restricted to just one specific appearance of one particular loco. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted June 26, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 26, 2019 8 minutes ago, MarkSG said: Secondly, a lot of detailing parts are genuinely optional from a prototypical point of view. Fitting some places the model in a particular location or era, and omitting them (or fitting different ones) places it in another. And sometimes they varied on the prototype, and you might want to have them the way you like them. The Rapido J70 is an excellent example of that - the detailing parts allow you to set it up however you want, rather than being restricted to just one specific appearance of one particular loco. Would be nice if some notes were provided with the model regarding that (maybe they are, it's a long time since I've looked). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 26, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2019 Some things I'd prefer to add myself. Heljan fitting all the pipes and jumpers on their diesels is a darned nuisance for me. I fit "proper" (non-NEM) Kadees to the main frames and the detail often gets damaged in removal. It was much easier when they came on a sprue, allowing me to tweak them as necessary to allow the coupler to operate cleanly. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 3 hours ago, Phil Parker said: someone in the factory has to be paid to do it. And while it may only cost coppers to do, by the time everyone along the chain adds their mark up it soon rockets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted June 26, 2019 Administrators Share Posted June 26, 2019 53 minutes ago, Reorte said: Would be nice if some notes were provided with the model regarding that (maybe they are, it's a long time since I've looked). Bachmann has started doing this, but I've always wondered why modellers can't just look at prototype photos. I read someone on Facebook railing against Hattons because they didn't tell him where the big bits of his rail head treatment train should be clipped. Someone pointed out that there was a diagram on the box, but I wondered why he cared since he obviously knew nothing about the prototype. Then I wondered why he'd bought it in the first place. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 One thing manufacturers could do is arrange the packaging so that a model with the detail parts on it fits back in without having to cut holes in it. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Traintresta said: I have to install al of the parts on my trains. But then again, I am building kits :-D The problem is not all prototypes are available as kits. Just for example GWR 14XX and 57XX in 4MM scale. If you want one it's RTR or finding a kit that hasn't been made for over thirty years. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 37 minutes ago, Phil Parker said: Bachmann has started doing this, but I've always wondered why modellers can't just look at prototype photos. I read someone on Facebook railing against Hattons because they didn't tell him where the big bits of his rail head treatment train should be clipped. Someone pointed out that there was a diagram on the box, but I wondered why he cared since he obviously knew nothing about the prototype. Then I wondered why he'd bought it in the first place. I've noticed that a lot recently. People seem to want everything, but don't even seem to do the basic research into what it actually is. Even a quick Google search works wonders. This took less than five seconds.... https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=aq4TXYjBK4LMgwfHr4OICQ&q=rhtt+train&oq=rhtt+train&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i22i30l3.271.5159..6056...0.0..0.181.872.8j2......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0i131j0i10j0i22i10i30.ZvCyX2LwBf0 Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 3 hours ago, Traintresta said: I have to install al of the parts on my trains. But then again, I am building kits :-D Kits! Eeee, we used to dream of kits! I like a bit of scratchbuilding sometimes Richard 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traintresta Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 16 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: The problem is not all prototypes are available as kits. Just for example GWR 14XX and 57XX in 4MM scale. If you want one it's RTR or finding a kit that hasn't been made for over thirty years. Jason That’s not much of a problem in this context as it just means fewer parts to add. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traintresta Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 1 minute ago, RLWP said: Kits! Eeee, we used to dream of kits! I like a bit of scratchbuilding sometimes Richard Kits have always been my favourite. I love scratchbuilding, which in this sense is a step further away from what we’re discussing, but there’s sometime satisfaction to be had from assembling a simple kit with the minimalist brain power often required in comparison to making something from nothing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Traintresta said: Kits have always been my favourite. I love scratchbuilding, which in this sense is a step further away from what we’re discussing, but there’s sometime satisfaction to be had from assembling a simple kit with the minimalist brain power often required in comparison to making something from nothing. I have a terrible habit of buying a kit then doing 'research' which inevitably ends up with me throwing half the kit away and modifying the rest Do you think there is a cure? Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traintresta Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Just now, RLWP said: I have a terrible habit of buying a kit then doing 'research' which inevitably ends up with me throwing half the kit away and modifying the rest Do you think there is a cure? Richard I don’t know but if you find one can you tell me what it is! I suffer the same problem but I inevitably find it easier to scratchbuild than kitbash. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 52 minutes ago, RLWP said: Kits! Eeee, we used to dream of kits! I like a bit of scratchbuilding sometimes Richard Scratchbuilding! Eeee, we used to dream of scratchbuilding! I like a bit of armchair modelling sometimes. Far fewer fiddly bits 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 47 minutes ago, Traintresta said: I don’t know but if you find one can you tell me what it is! I suffer the same problem but I inevitably find it easier to scratchbuild than kitbash. Buying a kit is just a way of deciding what to scratchbuild Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 47 minutes ago, Traintresta said: I don’t know but if you find one can you tell me what it is! I suffer the same problem but I inevitably find it easier to scratchbuild than kitbash. Buying a kit is just a way of deciding what to scratchbuild 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 26, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 26, 2019 4 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said: This specific aspect has occasionally made me wonder: this one, every practical piece of detail installed, another relatively similar model from the same maker, whole lot of parts for user installation - and these are not confined to the 'discretionary' parts where the user needs to test to see if they will work on the smallest radius curve on the layout - and I cannot see any rhyme or reason to it. Then again I have been in manufacturing operations management, and when shorthanded/under-resourced/under the cosh/subject to all too frequent power outages, all sorts of unplanned and typically unrecorded short cuts occur. (You have to bite your lip when in front of the unhappy customer and the briefest examination of the offending item makes it clear that assembly stage 159 didn't do the job right.) Per Phil; happy to have the bits and pieces, attached or loose. Much easier than 'find or make'. But again slight puzzlement: this one has the potentially fouling footsteps in the detail pack, excellent. But this very similar model from the same maker doesn't, and one has to 'find or make'. Well it might be. At last count I think there were five items in Bach's range that can carry the 4MT tag, and it is only the BR std 4MT 4-6-0 that derived from Mainline. The 'fully featured' item that sprang into my mind on reading the OP was Bach's Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0. Every bit of the copious external detail that it had been practical to reproduce was attached alright. ( A bit too attached, as detail parts bridged body and mechanism, cemented firmly both ends. Back to 'first world problems'...) I was assuming that 4MT referred to the BR standard 4MT 4-6-0, derived from a Mainline tooling. Maybe not accurately, but that's what I assumed... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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