Whitewashing wagons?

[Caledonian]

Looking through photos of goods yards/marshalling yards in the 1950s I can't help noticing a fair few very light coloured wooden-bodied wagons - so light that in comparison with the others they appear white.

 

Was there sometimes a practice [official or otherwise] of simply whitewashing old wagons rather than send them back to the shops?

[Marshall5]

Not whitewash but just sun bleached timber as, in the 50/60's, the woodwork was often left unpainted - just the ironwork was done.

Ray.

[The Johnster]

And cattle wagons were cleaned with lime wash, also staining them white especially the lower portions.

[mozzer models]

4 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

And cattle wagons were cleaned with lime wash, also staining them white especially the lower portions.

That stopped well before the 50's

 

[Happy Hippo]

1 minute ago, The Johnster said:

And cattle wagons were cleaned with lime wash, also staining them white especially the lower portions.

Liming was a terrible practice as it was found that the lime wash burned the feet of the cattle and anything else it came into contact with.

 

I think the practice of lime washing cattle wagons ceased in mid '20s!  It would be unlikely to see cattle wagons treated as such in the 50's.

[The Johnster]

Yes, Moz and Hippo; by that time we are probably looking at overexposed photos of already bleached out wagons.  Early BR practice was not to paint mineral or general merchandise opens (there was still an austerity economy in force, and paint was difficult to obtain) so any built in that period (1948-50 I think, but am happy to be corrected) were left as bare wood, as were rebodied xpo minerals.  Bare wood would have faded very quickly to a very light grey colour.  Such wagons as carried liveries carried old and faded liveries and in bright sunlight would have looked very light coloured indeed.  Vans were painted, as were all-steel minerals and opens.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by The Johnster

[wainwright1]

The cattle wagons would look something like this when lime-washed.

 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Liming was a terrible practice as it was found that the lime wash burned the feet of the cattle and anything else it came into contact with.

 

I think the practice of lime washing cattle wagons ceased in mid '20s!  It would be unlikely to see cattle wagons treated as such in the 50's.

It did indeed cease - having been made illegal by an Act of Parliament relating to teh transport of farm livestock.  A subject we visited several years back.

 

As for the 'bleached' timbers I would think it far more likely that they were unpainted replacement planks because wood in railway wagon use weathered quirte rapidly and teh last appearance it had was 'bleached' - 'mucky grey' was more likely after a month or two. 

[Fat Controller]

14 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Yes, Moz and Hippo; by that time we are probably looking at overexposed photos of already bleached out wagons.  Early BR practice was not to paint mineral or general merchandise opens (there was still an austerity economy in force, and paint was difficult to obtain) so any built in that period (1948-50 I think, but am happy to be corrected) were left as bare wood, as were rebodied xpo minerals.  Bare wood would have faded very quickly to a very light grey colour.  Such wagons as carried liveries carried old and faded liveries and in bright sunlight would have looked very light coloured indeed.  Vans were painted, as were all-steel minerals and opens.

 

 

The policy of only painting the ironwork and number panels on new, unfitted, stock lasted as late as 1954, according to David Larkin . This is supported by numerous photos in the books dedicated to wagons of the 'Early British Railways', and 'Middle British Railways ' eras.

[Dunsignalling]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

And cattle wagons were cleaned with lime wash, also staining them white especially the lower portions.

That practice was prohibited by law on animal welfare grounds from around the mid-1920s (1927 I think, ) as has been covered in previous threads.

 

"Old" staining probably remained visible (externally) on some wagons until around 1930, though.

 

John

Edited June 27, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

The policy of only painting the ironwork and number panels on new, unfitted, stock lasted as late as 1954, according to David Larkin . This is supported by numerous photos in the books dedicated to wagons of the 'Early British Railways', and 'Middle British Railways ' eras.

Then I definitely need examples on Cwmdimbath (nominal period 1948-58).  I believe the policy extended only to wooden bodied unfitted opens, but some vans were built unfitted and must have been unpainted.  AFAIK steel bodied vehicles, mostly opens, were painted whether fitted or not.  

 

It is surprising that RTR has ignored this for what is a very popular era, though Dap have done it for some 7mm wagons.  These are 'new wood' colour, which can't have lasted long in service even if it was varnished.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

That practice was prohibited by law on animal welfare grounds from around the mid-1920s (1927 I think, ) as has been covered in previous threads.

 

"Old" staining probably remained visible (externally) on some wagons until around 1930, though.

 

John

Any lime staining was required to be removed John - all traces of it to be completely removed from the vehicles.

[Wickham Green]

23 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

................ I believe the policy extended only to wooden bodied unfitted opens, but some vans were built unfitted and must have been unpainted.  ............................

Vans carried relatively 'delicate' products ( not to mention the cardboard boxes they were packed in ) and the shippers expected them to be kept dry - so vans were painted to help in weather-proofing them ..................... I don't recall any evidence of exceptions.

[petethemole]

I'm wondering whether the wagons concerned might be freshly repainted in grey, as in ex-Big Four stock such as opens and 12T minerals. Unfitted LMS and SR stock in bauxite and brown would have required repainting in grey and might appear very light in tone in a photo. A clue would be whether the ironwork stood out in contrast to the light colour, as unpainted wood wagons had painted ironwork.

[Steamport Southport]

I think unpainted wood wagons was due to shortages of paint more than anything. Wood can be replaced quite easily if it rots.

 

After all it does grow on trees... 

 

 

 

But I believe that open wagons were never painted internally anyway. Cattle wagons definitely weren't as it says in the Midland Wagons* books that the livestock used to eat the paint and it contained lead.

 

*I think it was those books

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

This was my original understanding, but according to Fat Controller quoting David Larkin, who knew more about it than me, all new unfitted vehicles (I assume Larkin means wooden bodied) were unpainted until 1954.  This would include vans, though most were fitted from new, and presumably such big 4 designs as continued to be built by BR.  We are thus talking about a good number of vehicles built in the 1948-54 period, mostly 5 plank opens; certainly more than an occasional oddity.  Previously painted older wagons being overhauled were just left in their old dirty big 4 livery and renumbered unless they were being ‘improved’ with vacuum brakes, which of course would have meant a repaint into BR bauxite. 

 

I do not know enough to comment on interiors, but would have thought painting was needed to preserve the wood.  

 

Bit of research needed to find myself suitable prototypes; what fun!!! 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

The policy of only painting the ironwork and number panels on new, unfitted, stock lasted as late as 1954, according to David Larkin . This is supported by numerous photos in the books dedicated to wagons of the 'Early British Railways', and 'Middle British Railways ' eras.

 

30 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Then I definitely need examples on Cwmdimbath (nominal period 1948-58). ...It is surprising that RTR has ignored this for what is a very popular era, though Dap have done it for some 7mm wagons.  These are 'new wood' colour, which can't have lasted long in service even if it was varnished.

I have yet to purchase an OO RTR wagon with a realistic stab at this:

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

...wood in railway wagon use weathered quite rapidly and the last appearance it had was 'bleached' - 'mucky grey' was more likely after a month or two. 

Even before we get to unfitted opens, the unpainted wooden open wagon interiors, floors of flats various: all of them typically the interesting tones of sun bleached timber after a year or more in service. This is notoriously difficult to render well with the usual range of variation, and would probably be nearly as costly to represent realistically as varnished teak! Which is I reckon why the RTR manufacturers have flubbed this aspect over the years. If they don't paint the interior in the exterior body colour - wrong! - then they apply a' new wood' pale to mid brown. The latter particularly poor in appearance on large flat wagon floors...

 

I usually slop on some very pale grey and streak with mid grey, which isn't so eye-gouging.  Better than nothing.

[The Johnster]

All of my opens’ interiors are enthusistically weathered and ‘distressed’, especially the floors, with whatever weathering gunge is occupying the gunge pot at the time, this is a movable feast but mostly grey/brown. Ish. 

[Fat Controller]

9 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

This was my original understanding, but according to Fat Controller quoting David Larkin, who knew more about it than me, all new unfitted vehicles (I assume Larkin means wooden bodied) were unpainted until 1954.  This would include vans, though most were fitted from new, and presumably such big 4 designs as continued to be built by BR.  We are thus talking about a good number of vehicles built in the 1948-54 period, mostly 5 plank opens; certainly more than an occasional oddity.  Previously painted older wagons being overhauled were just left in their old dirty big 4 livery and renumbered unless they were being ‘improved’ with vacuum brakes, which of course would have meant a repaint into BR bauxite. 

 

I do not know enough to comment on interiors, but would have thought painting was needed to preserve the wood.  

 

Bit of research needed to find myself suitable prototypes; what fun!!! 

Looking at DL's photos, painting seems to have been done quite carefully, covering only the metal parts; this included, for example, the steel ends of Boplates. Wagon bodies would have been been mainly hardwood, which will quite happily last several decades without paint; certainly longer than steel bodies. In the mid-1980s, we had a hen-shed that included planks from some minerals, which would have been at least 40 years old, and were still in good conditon.

[57xx]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

That practice was prohibited by law on animal welfare grounds from around the mid-1920s (1927 I think, ) as has been covered in previous threads.

 

So many times that I'm surprised that someone can still come up saying the contrary lol.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, 57xx said:

 

So many times that I'm surprised that someone can still come up saying the contrary lol.

 

It all depends on your interests and era. If I was only interested in pre grouping then I would assume they were all like that as they are in the wagon books.

 

As an example this photo. In the book it says the wagon on the left was brand new. All the others are liberally coated with white.

 

http://www.midlandrailway.org.uk/derby-registers/DY9165

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Wagon bodies would have been been mainly hardwood, which will quite happily last several decades without paint; certainly longer than steel bodies. In the mid-1980s, we had a hen-shed that included planks from some minerals, which would have been at least 40 years old, and were still in good conditon.

 

The traditional materials were English or American oak for the frames - solebars, headstocks, etc. - and Baltic pine for the body planking, more properly termed sheeting.

 

Incidentally, our word "spruce" comes from Polish "z Prus" - "from (East) Prussia".

[petethemole]

The body planking changed to home grown oak during the war as Baltic timber was unavailable.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, petethemole said:

The body planking changed to home grown oak during the war as Baltic timber was unavailable.

 

I'm surprised that oak of sufficient quality in sufficient quantity was available. 

[The Johnster]

It probably wasn't, but needs must...  

 

This was against the background of everything being controlled (very effectively, in fact) by the Ministry of Supply.  Vans built during the 'emergency regulation period' were from Ashford works to the Southern standard design, but supplied in quantity to the other 3 railways as well, because Ashford happened to have a large store of planks pre-cut to the correct sizes on hand at the beginning of the war which could be used up; Cwmdimbath has a couple of LMS examples, courtesy of Bachmann.   Some of these, vacuum fitted by BR, were still around in the 70s to raise eyebrows with their W, M, or E prefixed numbers.