Dockside Cranes

[petethemole]

Some examples of older cranes in Southampton Old Docks in the 1910s-'20s.  The cladding was timber, as were the cabins.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by petethemole

[phil_sutters]

Another use of hydraulic power was for dock gates

[AlfaZagato]

2 hours ago, Corbs said:

We're looking in to laser cutting it (or the jibs at least) at the moment. Main drawings are done, just undergoing CAD conversion.

 

Out of interest what would people be willing to pay for such a kit? Either fully laser cut or mixed resin/laser cut?

Seeing what other kits out there seem to sell for, I'd imagine you'd have takers at GBP 75.   (Sorry, US keyboard means no funny L)

[SteveyDee68]

8 hours ago, Corbs said:

We're looking in to laser cutting it (or the jibs at least) at the moment. Main drawings are done, just undergoing CAD conversion.

 

Out of interest what would people be willing to pay for such a kit? Either fully laser cut or mixed resin/laser cut?

 

A quick Google search gave the following results looking for "scale model dockside crane" -

 

WILLS fixed jib yard crane £5-£8 (suitable for small wharves)

ANCORTON laser cut crane (two styles) £8 (suitable for small wharves, warehouses)

Dapol dockside crane £8-£12 (the 'default' option)

PECO goods yard crane £15 (similar to WILLS in style and size)

GAUGEMASTER Fordhampton dockside crane £15-£17 which looks suspiciously like the

FALLER gantry crane £17-£20

RATIO traversing crane £25 (not really suitable for ship to shore unloading but a very detailed kit)

KIBRI (HO) horse head portal dockside crane £35 (very European looking)

NON BRANDED 1:87 (HO) "large coal crane" £43 (on www.wish.com - looks European, heavy fixed boom)

KIBRI (HO) container gantry crane £50-£60 (suitable for barge to shore rather than ship to shore)

CREATIVE DIY 1:87 (HO) wheeled container crane £56 (on www.wish.com - again not for STS operations)

WALTHERS (HO) pier and travelling crane £62+ (similar to FALLER crane, perhaps finer detail)

Bachmann container terminal crane £125 (again not for STS activities)

 

The above results in bold text represent those that matched what I was looking for, but vary in price and detail from £8-£62! Lasercut buildings range from £6 - £45 depending upon size, never mind complexity! 

 

Given the work put into research, design, kit development etc I wouldn't expect such a kit to cost less than £40, and possibly more! Modern OO coach models are generally costing £40+ but are generally highly detailed and finished to a high standard. If a kit - which it is still possible for the ham-fisted to beggar up - was sold for much more than that, I suppose it might put modellers off, but if priced correctly it might not only attract 'new' sales but also sales to modellers 'upgrading' from their existing Dapol/Airfix based model.

 

Of course, I can see myself wanting two or three of them which could quickly add up whatever the price, but considering the hours of research and design these would save me, they would be worth every penny!

 

Looking forward to seeing these be announced!

 

Steve S

 

 

 

 

[Pacific231G]

On 10/02/2021 at 12:58, Corbs said:

We're looking in to laser cutting it (or the jibs at least) at the moment. Main drawings are done, just undergoing CAD conversion.

 

Out of interest what would people be willing to pay for such a kit? Either fully laser cut or mixed resin/laser cut?

Hi Corbs 

I thought I'd replied to this but it clearly didn't load properly (my desktop PC keeps dropping out of web connection) so I'll try again. 

That diorama and those models of the M shed cranes are brilliant. Those particular cranes are not the largest Toplis travelling  "crank" cranes that Stothert and Pitt produced but they're not the smallest either. They'd be fairly typical of those used in larger docks like London, Liverpool, Southampton (where there were still some on berths 101-107  until three or four years ago though I think they've now been demolished)  etc. but I think those you'd find at smaller ports and the ferry ports were rather smaller simply because so were the ships they were loading and unloafing. None of them were tiny of course and they were all pretty tall especiallly in their "resting" posiiton with the jib raised,  but for layout purposes smaller would probably be more popular and, because they were so ubiquitous in ports all around the British coast, would be a particularly useful model. I think there is an etched brass version in N that I think I've seen on the Scalescenes  stand. The Airfix/Dapol model is fairly untypical of a travelling dockside crane but I suspect it was its smaller size that made it Airfix's choice for an injection moulded plastic kit 

I think the four cranes at  Weymouth harbour station were considerably smaller than the M shed cranes and, in this detail from a postcard, I don't think it's perspective that makes the end crane look smaller and it's clearly also an S&P crank* crane- the giveaway is the lattice tower behind the jib that achieves the necessary geometry for the Toplis level luffing system to work.  

 

*So called because the jib was luffed (raised and lowered) by a crank emerging from the side of the machine house rather than the more usual method of cables attached to the head of the jib. One of the characteristics of level luffing is that the load stays level when the jib is luffed to bring it in or out from the crane so requires very little force. The crank is faster than a cable drum and pulleys and speed of handling relatively small loads with a single fall  was the great advantage of this type of crane and since it was patented S&P got a huge proportion of the commercial port business. 

[DGO]

20 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

 

A quick Google search gave the following results looking for "scale model dockside crane" -

 

GAUGEMASTER Fordhampton dockside crane £15-£17 which looks suspiciously like the

FALLER gantry crane £17-£20

 

 

Looking forward to seeing these be announced!

 

Steve S

 

 

 

 

I think Gaugemaster have some kind of rebranding deal with Faller, I believe they do a building site set that is identical as well, not unheard of Preiser makes figures for Faller building sets for example.

 

[Michael Crofts]

More from Ipswich.

The Ipswich Maritime Trust collection is magnificent.

 

[SteveyDee68]

4 hours ago, Michael Crofts said:

More from Ipswich.

The Ipswich Maritime Trust collection is magnificent.

 

 

Perfect! Sold! I'll take three!! (One for Blackford Wharf and two more for Broadchurch!)

 

Steve S

 

 

[Johann Marsbar]

14 hours ago, Michael Crofts said:

More from Ipswich.

The Ipswich Maritime Trust collection is magnificent.

 

 

I've got a booklet published by Ipswich Corporation in 1906 that features a different view of one of those cranes.  It's rather small, but I'll see if I can copy it later today.  The description is "New Public Quay with electric crane" - the cranes in question being constructed at the adjacent Ransomes and Rapier works in the Town (as seen in the posed builders plate under the crane in the photo above). In 1906 the "New Public Quay" is described as "recently constructed", though I most probably have the actual dates here somewhere.

 

Nice view of the Mellonie & Goulder coal wagon as well - A different livery to the Dapol OO one the Mid Suffolk Lt Rly produced several years back.

.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Johann Marsbar

[Johann Marsbar]

The quayside in question was rebuilt starting in 1903 so the cranes will most probably date from the 1903/4 period.

 

The image in the 1906 Ipswich booklet is shown below...

 

 

It was a booklet produced to attract firms to set up operations in the Town, so covers transportation links, public health, rates, wages etc.

[Pacific231G]

On 03/03/2021 at 16:12, Michael Crofts said:

More from Ipswich.

The Ipswich Maritime Trust collection is magnificent.

 

Fascinating Michael.

An early electric travelling crane for rapid cargo handling but built a decade or so before Claude Topliss patented the  level luffing system that enabled Stothert and Pitt to become the largest supplier of this type of crane- at least in Britain and the empire.

It must have required great skill by their drivers to put the hook exactly where they wanted it by co-ordinating the hoisting and luffing controls and to do so rapidly as quickly as possible. I'm also trying to figure out the rigging of this as I count six cables between the cab and the jib head but can only think of functions for four or at most five of them. 

Note also the electric lamp half way up the jib to illuminate the working area where the hook would have mainly  been.

 

Thanks for pointing out the Ipswich Maritime Trust collection. There are indeed some magnificent images there.

I rather liked this one

https://www.flickr.com/photos/imt_image_archive/47683410432/sizes/k/

showing what may very well have been two of the cranes that replaced these, both level luffing but one a Topliss rig and the other a horsehead. It also shows the rigging of the MV Fairwind's own dericks to work cargo simultaneoulsy though I think the smaller vessel alongside is probably bunkering (fuelling) the Fairwind rather than transferring cargo.

That one image includes a vast amount of detail for anyone wanting to model a medium sized traditional rail served cargo port.  

Edited March 4, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Johann Marsbar]

27 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Thanks for pointing out the Ipswich Maritime Trust collection. There are indeed some magnificent images there.

I rather liked this one

https://www.flickr.com/photos/imt_image_archive/47683410432/sizes/k/

showing what may very well have been two of the cranes that replaced these, both level luffing but one a Topliss rig and the other a horsehead. It also shows the rigging of the MV Fairwind's own dericks to work cargo simultaneoulsy though I think the smaller vessel alongside is probably bunkering (fuelling) the Fairwind rather than transferring cargo.

That one image includes a vast amount of detail for anyone wanting to model a medium sized traditional rail served cargo port.  

 

Those two cranes are on Cliff Quay, almost to where the post WW2 built Power Station of the same name used to be located. That part of the Port was only developed from the 1920's onwards. The Ostrich (as it was called then) Pub is visible in the right background across the river, at the southern end of Bourne Bridge.

The three Rapier electric ones were located on the western side of the the original 1842 constructed "Wet Dock" (which is now a glorified marina....)

[SteveyDee68]

Just to say that the Ipswich Maritime Trust Photo Archive on Flickr is an absolute goldmine, a rabbit hole one can happily dive down for hours on end, and not just for cranes! Thoroughly recommended.

 

2 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

An early electric travelling crane for rapid cargo handling but built a decade or so before Claude Topliss patented the  level luffing system that enabled Stothert and Pitt to become the largest supplier of this type of crane- at least in Britain and the empire.

 

Funnily enough I was going to ask if this was a level luffing crane but with the "tower" hidden but that has enlightened me! It looks a really useful size for most small docks if you don't want a Stothert & Pitt "Topliss" level luffing crane to dwarf everything else modelled.

 

Wonder if we might persuade Corbs to develop a kit for one of one of these, too?! (Oh, the cheek!!)

 

Steve S

 

Having just said that, you can zoom in on the photograph and get a hell of a lot of details from it to attempt your own model...

Edited March 4, 2021 by SteveyDee68

[Pacific231G]

4 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

Just to say that the Ipswich Maritime Trust Photo Archive on Flickr is an absolute goldmine, a rabbit hole one can happily dive down for hours on end, and not just for cranes! Thoroughly recommended.

 

 

Funnily enough I was going to ask if this was a level luffing crane but with the "tower" hidden but that has enlightened me! It looks a really useful size for most small docks if you don't want a Stothert & Pitt "Topliss" level luffing crane to dwarf everything else modelled.

 

Wonder if we might persuade Corbs to develop a kit for one of one of these, too?! (Oh, the cheek!!)

 

Steve S

 

Having just said that, you can zoom in on the photograph and get a hell of a lot of details from it to attempt your own model...

It's not a million miles  from the Airfix/Dapol crane that I've been so rude about and I think that could be fairly readily kitbashed - maybe just changing the design of the machine house/cab- into something rather like this. 

I think it was the sheer speed of operation of electric cranes that created the need for level luffing answered both by Topliss and the horsehead cranes where the level luffing is fairly simple geometry. Topliss is so simple that I'd have thought that bosuns from Sinbad onward would have figured it out by trial and error if nothing else. That they never did suggests that they had no need of it.

[SteveyDee68]

2 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

It's not a million miles  from the Airfix/Dapol crane that I've been so rude about and I think that could be fairly readily kitbashed - maybe just changing the design of the machine house/cab- into something rather like this. 

 

Strangely enough I was looking at my unmade kit a little earlier and thinking the same! Ralf has reduced the width of the base section of his Airfix/Dapol crane on his Siddals Road Quay layout, and it certainly looks less bulky and more like the Ipswich crane, and might be a start to modelling it.

 

 

Original crane base on left, narrowed version on right

Edited March 5, 2021 by SteveyDee68

[Pacific231G]

13 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

 

Strangely enough I was looking at my unmade kit a little earlier and thinking the same! Ralf has reduced the width of the base section of his Airfix/Dapol crane on his Siddals Road Quay layout, and it certainly looks less bulky and more like the Ipswich crane, and might be a start to modelling it.

 

 

Original crane base on left, narrowed version on right

I'd change the cab too. Apart from being wide enough to stop the thing from toppling, the base just has to be wide enough to clear the structure gauge of a railway line running between the crane tracks so I think that looks fine and the Ipswich crane would be a good model to follow. There are several more images of it in the Ipswich Maritime  Trust collection in Flickr. 

[Cornelius1957]

Sorry it’s a bit late! But attached are the Airfix/Dapol crane and Bob Edwardes’ prototype side by side on my layout of M shed. My layout used the Airfix ones for ease, but also because I feel the scale version looks too tall!!

[Gordon A]

The scale version looks the bees knees.

Well done to Bob Edwardes.

Do you have any idea if he obtained any copies of any original plans?

 

Gordon A

[Corbs]

28 minutes ago, Gordon A said:

The scale version looks the bees knees.

Well done to Bob Edwardes.

Do you have any idea if he obtained any copies of any original plans?

 

Gordon A

 

Bob did use drawings that BIM made a while back to make his. We are in the process of converting them to vector form to (hopefully) make a kit but as with all these things it is taking time.

[AlfaZagato]

Were there any docks known to have cranes such as these with lines equipped with OHLE?

[phil_sutters]

I have just come across this photo in the photo-sharing website 'ipernity', of which I am a member. I don't recall having seen this arrangement with three hooks before. http://www.ipernity.com/doc/uranos/50980590

[DGO]

That 3 hook arrangement is probably on a salvage vessel, here's something bigger  and more complicated but with that same sort of layout 

[Pacific231G]

On 26/09/2021 at 17:54, phil_sutters said:

I have just come across this photo in the photo-sharing website 'ipernity', of which I am a member. I don't recall having seen this arrangement with three hooks before. http://www.ipernity.com/doc/uranos/50980590

Hi Phil

This is the "Schwimmkran Saatsee" or Saatsee floating crane. It is now a museum piece but was built in 1919 by Schiffs- und Maschinenbau AG Mannheim and used from 1919 to 1989 in the Kiel Canal to replace lock gates and other heavy objects. Hoists, windlasses and capstans are steam driven and the boiler is still coal fired.  Unlike most such cranes- and they were and to some extent still are very common in large ports- the Saatsee is not self-propelled. It is now in the Museum der Arbeit in Hamburg. and is still fully functional. The port of Hamburg has a numbder of more modern floating cranes (not that modern- one of them was built in 1941 for the German navy)

 

Floating cranes were and are used by ports for handling their own heavy lifts such as lock gates, boilers and other bulky pieces of dock machinery as  well as heavy items of cargo that can't be handled by the dockside cranes.  and they could move easily around the port to do that.  If a ship had say a few locomotives as deck cargo it made far more sense to bring up a floating crane to offload them than to move the ship to a fixed heavy lift crane on the dockside. They might also be used in ship repair yards to lift heavy machinery such as main engine components though such yards did tend to have large fixed cranes for that sort of thing.

The three hooks would be able to handle progressively heavier items further in without overbalancing the crane but they'd also enable an awkwardly shaped or long load to be  supported at each end. That would be useful for lifting something like a main engine crankshaft or a section of the propellor shaft but also for unusually large pieces of cargo though such as locomotives not transported by specialist heavy lift ships with their own lifting equipment. 

  This is one of the first of the 1340 141R Mikados built by various North American builders for SNCF being unloaded from the liberty ship SS Harold O Wilson in Marseilles on 10th December 1945 and clearly being handles by one of port's floating cranes.

 

 

[petethemole]

On 01/07/2019 at 11:44, Pacific231G said:

I have  vague memories of these from when I worked in S. Western House almost opposite Dock Gate 4 from about 1979 but don't know where. If they were anywhere it was in the older Eastern Docks as I'm almost certain all the cranes along the long quayside of the newer Western Docks were (and are) free standing. I've looked through a load of Britain from Above images of Southampton from the 1930s but all the cranes there seem to be fairly standard Stothert & Pitt freestanding portal cranes so I've not found them yet. I did find some intriguingly small travelling cranes on Town quay in the 1930s. They look far more like the Airfix crane but I think they're rigged for Toplis level luffing  so if I can find a better image of them they could be useful.

 

This postcard of PS Solent Queen (posted on FB by Dave Marsden) shows the cranes on Town Quay pre-1914 (probably).  They look very like the Aifix/Dapol crane but the rigging comes through the top front of the machine room and is presumably Toplis.  One is has a larger machine room and shorter jib than the others.

 

 

Some of them seem to be still there in this early post-war aerial view.

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by petethemole

[Pacific231G]

On 01/10/2021 at 13:04, petethemole said:

 

This postcard of PS Solent Queen (posted on FB by Dave Marsden) shows the cranes on Town Quay pre-1914 (probably).  They look very like the Aifix/Dapol crane but the rigging comes through the top front of the machine room and is presumably Toplis.  One is has a larger machine room and shorter jib than the others.

 

Some of them seem to be still there in this early post-war aerial view.

Hi Pete

I've looked again at images of those cranes on Town quay and I'm fairly certain they're not rigged for Toplis level luffing. They certainly wouldn't be if they were pre 1914 as Toplis (who was Stothert and Pitt's chief designer) didn't apply for the patent until 1912 and I think it was granted in about 1914. For a Toplis level luffing rig the height of the rear pulleys above the fulcrum of the jib is (as calculated by Flying Pig six years ago) 1/3.602 the length of the jib from its fulcrum.  The usual clue to that ype of crane is the sheave (pulley) tower above the machine room and the two pulleys one behind the other at the jib head with a single fall to the hook. I've seen images of some non Stothert and Pitt cranes that appeared to be using the Toplis system but whether they licensed the patent or it ran out I couldn't say. 

The Town Quay cranes do look rather more like the Airfix model (which isn't a typical dockside crane) but I've long wondered whether Airfix based their model on a specific crane or whether it was (as I strongly suspect) essentially a freelance design.