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The Toplis patents can be found on Espacenet. https://worldwide.espacenet.com/?locale=en_EP

 

Claude Toplis' patent for a level luffing crane, including the reason for doing so is GB191222704 (A) (search Claude Toplis). A later patent for the bifurcated jib and crank luffing is in GB 213949 (A) (search Stothert Pitt). The bifurcated jib was designed to remove any obstruction from the crane operator's field of view, the crank luffing mechanism to ensure that if allowed to over-run the jib would just oscillate and no damage would occur. This patent includes diagrams which though of a general nature might be useful to anyone contemplating making a model.

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10 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Do my eyes deceive me, or is the Sirdar Mary a Clyde Puffer?

Or something else?

It's not a name I can find on the Puffers and VICs vessel index.

https://www.puffersandvics.org/puffer_index.htm

Hi Keith

I'm afraid your eyes do deceive you. The ship ( the caption is referring to Kerr Stuart loco on the quay) is too large to be a Clyde puffer though she looks to be a fairly small coaster. Quite posssibly small enough for an 00/H0 harbour !!

 

The obvious differences from a Puffer/VIC are that she has lifeboats in davits both port and starboard behind the bridge with a far larger enclosed wheelhouse so probably designed for extended coastal and short sea voyages. She also has a second mast behind the engine room skylight  probably used for a small sail  to steady the ship in poor weather. The main fore mast and its boom seems to be arranged as a derick for working cargo rather than for rigging a larger sail, though early steam coasters could raise sails if they needed to and it looks as if a small sail, also presumably for steadying the ship, is furled in front of the mast. The  position of the mast implies a single hold so clearly still a small coaster.

 

I can't find an exact match in Waine & Fenton's "Steam Coasters and Short Sea Traders" (a wonderful, if not essentia,l book to have if you're interested in this type of vessel) but the SS Florence built by R. Craggs and Sons in Middlesborough in 1881 and later modernised with an enclosed wheelhose  comes closest. She was 207 gross tons and 122 ft x 22ft x 8 1/2 ft (compared with the 80 ft  or so length and 120 gross tons of a typical Clyde Puffer.

 

The same photo appears here

https://sites.google.com/site/budlebayhistory/

but not with any more information about the ship.

 

PS I had a look at the Diana Facebook page and, though not very clear in the Budle Bay photo, those particular Kerr Stuart locos with their tall chimney rather bizarre shaped cab  do have a wonderful Roland Emett quality about them  so I assume they influenced some of his cartoons and then the Far Tottering and Oyster Creek railway at the Festival of Britain. 

Edited by Pacific231G
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5 minutes ago, brian777999 said:

 

Water carrier ? Carrying water from where to where ?

To Royal Naval ships, The SS Freshspring was built for the Royal Fleet Auxiliary on the Ribble in 1946 and initially based in Malta.   She has nothing to do with the ship we're wondering about at Budle Bay.

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Here are a few photos of Colchester Hythe from the Colchester history facebook site, featuring a small travelling crane with coal grab. You can also see from these photos and others prior to WWII a lot of the coasters were Thames Sailing barges. There were about 2000 registered in 1914 and the last one trading under sail was the 'Cambria' which went out of trade in 1979. Several were later used as motor barges certainly up until the 1990s, these days many still exist as yachts there are a couple of kits out there suitable for S or OO.  These barges were not restricted to the Thames Estuary with many trading along the South and East coasts.

Colchest hythe high up.png

Colchester Hythe crane 1960s.jpg

hythe barges.jpg

hythe crane  b.jpg

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Some later photos when European built coasters were prominent. My father was skipper of one of these called the 'Nova L' in the 70s, it had been built in Germany during the war and the wheelhouse was made from armour plate. During the steam age the railway at Colchester Hythe was worked by J70s and prior to them Sentinels and a Y5 with tram skirts.

Hythe colour b.jpg

Hythe colour.jpg

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On 20/02/2020 at 23:11, AlfaZagato said:

That crane in the black & white photos looks both like a great scratchbuild project, and a reasonable size to fit on a point-to-point layout of the dock.

The whole installation is crying out to be adapted into a model, and is of a small enough scale as to not need too much compression. 

 

Edit: And the guys operating it are easily represented with Airfix RAF ground crew figures, given the berets and overalls. 

Edited by PatB
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On 15/02/2020 at 23:17, Schooner said:

Whilst looking up Kerr Stuart locos I came across this and thought it might be of interest here:

 

Loco%20at%20Budle%20Jetty.jpg?fbclid=IwA

 

I found it on the lovely Diana Facebook page, captioned "Sirdar MARY (KS 705/1901) on the jetty at Budle Bay, Northumberland. Photographed sometime between 1911-1917."

 

Looks almost as bad in the photo as it does outside at the moment...

The freighter would have been loading stone from a nearby quarry at Kittling Hill having perhaps discharged a cargo of coal. The 1925 6" to the mile OS map based on a 1922 survey and published in 1925 shows an 'Old Waggonway' leading from the quay to the quarry.

From National Library of Scotland maps web site https://maps.nls.uk/view/101027883

 

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17 hours ago, PatB said:

The whole installation is crying out to be adapted into a model, and is of a small enough scale as to not need too much compression. 

 

Edit: And the guys operating it are easily represented with Airfix RAF ground crew figures, given the berets and overalls. 

 

I have been trying to decide whether to have a depiction of Colchester Hythe docks down one side (on the inside hiding the fiddle yard) of my roundy roundy layout. The station I am building takes some inspiration from Colchester Hythe station but also Wivenhoe which was similar but the line from the goods yard ran to a shipbuilders rather than docks and the gasworks tramway as at Colchester.  Not far from Wivenhoe was the start of the branch to Brightlingsea  so my other option is a branch line/ branch terminus possibly depicting St Osyth (an extension form Brightlingsea was proposed but never built). It would include a quay but much more modest.

The photos I have included are two more of Colchester Hythe, a train on the Brightlingsea branch and the Quay at St Osyth (I think a station would look good just to the right of the mill). 

 

 

 

 

83150959_10158132049353854_8648031738439663616_n.jpg

82233298_10158112980528854_2362029934588723200_o.jpg

65432.jpg

P1130492.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

Evening all,

 

A dock cranes question, here seemed the best place to ask it:

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19&lat=51.50272&lon=-0.01418&layers=163&b=1 shows a corner of North  South Quay, West India Export Dock, London in the 1880s. Two cranes are shown. Does anyone have any information on what form they might have taken? I'd be grateful for any leads :)

 

Cheers,

 

Schooner

 

EDIT: This, from the amazing BHO narrows the search a bit, but still leaves lots to learn

EDIT: Erm, right dock, wrong quay!

Edited by Schooner
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16 hours ago, Schooner said:

Evening all,

 

A dock cranes question, here seemed the best place to ask it:

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19&lat=51.50272&lon=-0.01418&layers=163&b=1 shows a corner of North Quay, West India Export Dock, London in the 1880s. Two cranes are shown. Does anyone have any information on what form they might have taken? I'd be grateful for any leads :)

 

Cheers,

 

Schooner

 

EDIT: This, from the amazing BHO narrows the search a bit, but still leaves lots to learn

I knew that the cranes I have photographed, currently preserved on North Quay, would not be 19th century ones, so I had a look on line. The earliest ones I can see are these photographed in 1900. 20 years isn't that long in a crane's life, so these could be those that were there in 1880. https://www.museumoflondonprints.com/image/11926/west-india-docks-1900-north-quay  The Museum in Docklands is located on North Quay so they could have more information.

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Thanks for that Phil, really helpful :)

 

I've just spotted my own error (West India Import Dock, South Quay it should have been - it's the North Quay of the South Dock next door that distracted me...); but regardless that's a cracking pic and has opened up another avenue to explore. A quick look suggests those look to be travelling cranes, and so probably not exactly the ones in the survey linked above, but excellent material to add to the folder :)

 

Cheers!

 

EDIT: 

310877.jpg

 

I'd need to go and cross-reference, but do we think the wooden tower with the jib on it might sit on the edge of the original dock, and pre-date the extension (which was put in for reasons many and various at a date I'll dig out of the references in a sec*) to the dock edge on which the shed and travelling cranes are sat?

 

*Better use of the Import Dock was an early priority of the London and India Docks Joint Committee, and in 1892 improvement of the north quay, with timber wharfing projecting into the dock, was proposed, in conjunction with the rebuilding of the Blackwall locks and the introduction of an impounding system to increase the depth of water (see pages 269 and 326). (fn. 15) H. F. Donaldson prepared 'ingenious' plans for an open, or 'false', quay, 20ft wide, to run 2,450ft along the north side of the dock.

 

See these at Poplar, 1872:

766771.jpg

 

Edited by Schooner
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That looks like a motor lorry on a rail weighbridge, or am I mistaken in the above image of Colchester Hythe.

Colchest hythe high up.png

 

 

regards

Edited by ColHut
clarity
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  • 3 weeks later...

For a fine selection of dockside cranes and ships , barges , rail wagons etc   this beautifully filmed free to view on BFI  half hour  film about the Port of Hull in 1963 is well worth a look . 

Some of the shipping scenes are Turner-esque.

Near to the end their is a quayside full of  various British sports cars going to Canada.

Link-

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-port-of-hull-1963-online

 

 

2020-04-30 (29).png

Edited by JCB 3C no.2
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  • 3 months later...
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Much as I am in awe of the modelling skills needed to build large dockside cranes, my issue to build a very modest affair merely capable of loading coal or sand from a lighter to be deposited in a waiting wagon. No need for a portal crane, merely a crane with grab bucket of the size below would be perfect.

 

656219225_LocoatBudleJetty.jpg.d982236e5c7cd564d743eeb0872df1d4.jpg

My problem is lack of skills which departed when Parkinson's made its appearance. Plastic kits are now my limit, therefore I scour the internet for something suitable and this HO kit seemed to kit the bill. The inclusion of a bucket grab is a bonus.

Piko_61126.jpg.d860806f25b3e0d3b50acbb2850d2701.jpg

 

It is expensive but the 15% smaller size in this case may be an advantage and an unmade Airfix portal crane lurks in the 'rainy day' cupboard as a source of replacement bits.

 

Cheers and Stay Safe

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

Much as I am in awe of the modelling skills needed to build large dockside cranes, my issue to build a very modest affair merely capable of loading coal or sand from a lighter to be deposited in a waiting wagon. No need for a portal crane, merely a crane with grab bucket of the size below would be perfect.

 

656219225_LocoatBudleJetty.jpg.d982236e5c7cd564d743eeb0872df1d4.jpg

My problem is lack of skills which departed when Parkinson's made its appearance. Plastic kits are now my limit, therefore I scour the internet for something suitable and this HO kit seemed to kit the bill. The inclusion of a bucket grab is a bonus.

Piko_61126.jpg.d860806f25b3e0d3b50acbb2850d2701.jpg

 

It is expensive but the 15% smaller size in this case may be an advantage and an unmade Airfix portal crane lurks in the 'rainy day' cupboard as a source of replacement bits.

 

Cheers and Stay Safe

 

 

 

Hello Jack

It occurs to me that the Airfix crane might be suitable with a different base, especially if you were able to do a bit of kit bashing on the cab. There's nothing wrong with the working end of the Airfix kit as a crane per se; it's just very untypical of dockside portal cranes. That's probably largely down to the market dominance in the UK of various models of Stothert and Pitt's Topis level luffing 'crank' crane.  

I rather wonder what it would look like to put the H0 crane on the Airfix portal and vice versa.  Apart from the slanted planking on the cab door there's nothing too overtly teutonic about the H0 crane unlike some which , like some plastic kit buildings, just look very Germanic. 

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David,

 

I am sorry but I thought that I had made myself clear by stating that there is no need for a portal crane. The problem with the Airfix crane is the jib, it lacks any plausibility whether as a portal or truck mounted device however the cab is useful and I did try to hint that my spare Airfix crane would be useful in that respect. The Piko device is a ‘bitsa’ from their overhead coaling gantry, hence the bay window cab, the Airfix cab would be far more plausible. 
The real issue is the lack of a crane (with enclosed) cabs for smaller locations, not all need to be delving into the bowels of ocean going vessels. There were smaller (modelgenic) wharves served by coasters and lighters unfortunately the choice to portray the lifting devices is limited to fixed manual cranes better suited to goods yards, R&B tracked devices or the Coles wheeled crane.......finally scratch building. 

 

This almost perfect (for my purposes) model was available from Artitec, like all their better models, it sold out almost immediately. Ironically, it was reasonably priced. 

 

Stay Safe and Cheers

 

F67E8087-7B03-40CC-BE2A-DA3BB309F2FB.jpeg.4c9e3e0c67ea51aab5529e255599d8f7.jpeg

 

 

 

 

 

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At the risk of breaching copyright, this link should take you to an Almay image of what I consider the almost perfect small crane, I think it is British made but located on the Iberian Peninsular.

 

Perfect small crane

 

Btw this is a lovely discussion, the epitome of RMweb

 

As ever, Cheers and Stay Safe

Edited by Jack Benson
Idiocy
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  • 5 weeks later...

Pacific231G posted a interesting photos of cranes at the Historic Cheltenham Dockyard, but I focused on the building at the back of the first photo...

 

IMG_1235.JPG

 

And thought to myself "That reminds me of the Scalescenes fire station kit"

 

 

IMG_1237.JPG

 

A little bit of kitbashing and another building for a harbour layout!

 

A bit OT from the main thread, but felt compelled to point out the possibilities!

 

Steve S

Edited by SteveyDee68
Photo placement and typos!
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