Dockside Cranes

[darthmh]

hi all.  Are the smaller steam powered cranes in these photos self propelled,  If not how are the moved backwards and forwards on their lines.

[Pacific231G]

9 hours ago, darthmh said:

hi all.  Are the smaller steam powered cranes in these photos self propelled,  If not how are the moved backwards and forwards on their lines.

They were AFAIK normally self powered with the wheels powered via shafts, gearing and clutches from the single engine mounted on the revolving base that also handled lifting, luffing (if they had that capability)  and rotating. 

 

 

 I've noticed in a few images of those at Dieppe* that, for heavier loads, they were be chained to the inset rails to avoid toppling so they'd have had to be positioned then chained down.

 

For lighter loads they seem to have operated unchained.

 

*For this type of crane, form seems to have followed function and there's nothing characteristically "national" about them as the drawings show. 

.

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Pacific231G

[The Johnster]

On 09/09/2020 at 10:24, Pacific231G said:

 

What I find even more interesting in the postcard you linked to is the shipping. One vessel appears to be a Clyde puffer, and a few of these were operated by local shipowners in the Bristol Channel, but the other is a typical but very small raised quarter deck  steamer, a far more typical type of coaster for any small British port, and apparently only about a third longer than the puffer so small enough to use on even a modest layout.

 

Puffers were uncommon away from the sheltered waters they were designed for, the Firth of Clyde, canals, and the inner islands.  I am wondering if this is the notorious 'Snowflake', operated by her owner/skipper out of Ilfracombe and infamous for getting into trouble and having to be towed off sandbanks.  There is a story of her skipper being interviewed on the bridge for a local newspaper article and saying 'I know every rock in the Bristol Channel like the back of my hand', bump. 'and there's another one'.   A puffer is small, but more importantly, really too slow for the Bristol Channels combination of open water, big seas, vicious tidal currents, and tricky navigation once you get east of the Foreland Light on the English side or Porthcawl on the Welsh, as the sandbanks close in...  One needs something that can make over 8 knots in a seaway to make ground against the tide.

 

They are common in model railway harbours (Kevin KNP has modelled Snowflake), as they are small but still look like a coaster, though they are not really suitable for areas outside their Clyde and Argyll coast stomping ground, a comment disproved by the puffer in the picture.  You almost couldn't imagine a less suitable vessel for working around ilfracombe, where things become properly Atlanticish, but there she was.  The raised quarterdeck coaster is far more typical, replaced from around the mid 50s by motor vessels which offered a better cargo to accommodation/machinery space ratio.  Also common by that time were the motor driven 'Dutch Barges', about 80' in length and with accomodation/machinery aft; these were sized for the European canal network and could go up the Rhine to Basle or to the Black Sea via the Danube.  They had hinged masts and collapsible funnels for inland work.

[Pacific231G]

Hi Johnster

Indeed. I started this topic on the basis of otherwise well modelled quaysides being let down both by the untypical Airfix-Dapol "dockside" crane and the even more untypical (outside their normal area of operations) Clyde Puffer.

In 1:87 H0 scale Artitec have a very attractive Dutch motor coaster in their catalogue

https://www.artitecshop.com/en/coastal-freighter.html

However, at 550mm long even this small vessel may be a bit big for most model harbours and it's a fairly expensive kit. Ships like did this became quite common in the latter decades of extensive general coastal shipping around the British coast and many owners bought them to replace ageing steam coasters. I'd stil like to see a commercial model in 1:97 or 1:76 scale of a typical "dirty British coaster".  in the 150-200 ton range  such a model would be far more useful, because of their far greater ubiquity, than yet another Clyde puffer.

I don't remember seeing any Dutch barges in small British ports in the 60s and 70s, though they may have been more common on the East coast.  Converted for residential use, they're pretty common now on the tidal Thames round London,  as well as on the GUC but how seaworthy were they for the Channel or North Sea crossing?   

 

I'm not sure if the puffer in the picture is the Snowflake as I'm pretty sure a handful of other puffers (or VICs) worked in the Bristol Channel- maybe the upper end of it, and the Dawnlight - a motor puffer (yes I know that's a contradiction but the seawater "puffers" didn't puff either as they had closed circulation feedwater sytems)- came from the Clyde and served as Lundy's supply ship.  

 

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Andy Hayter]

I cannot speak for the 60s and 70s.  I suspect few were then sufficiently sea worthy to cross the North Sea.  However earlier Thames barges (and similar craft) regularly crossed the North Sea to get to Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam and even Hamburg.   They were also quite happy sailing down the coast from at least as far north as Newcastle upon Tyne.    I assume that most cross sea journeys were made at a close point so Essex to Belgian coast and then up the coast as required.

 

I have done quite  bit of research on this for my "in progress" layout, Haltemprice Quay.  

Artitec also do a Dutch sailing barge (Tjalk), which with a bit of work can be made more typical of British sailing barges - change the boom rig to spar rig and even add a mizzen mast (I decided against this since I felt the back end was getting a bit cramped and additionally I have examples of single masted British sailing barges).  

 

 

Edit to add:  A number of Thames barges were used in the Dunkirk evacuation in 1940.  The shallow draft allowed them to get close in to the beaches.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Andy Hayter

[SteveyDee68]

John Wiffen has made some very nice downloadable ship kits so far, from small fishing boats through to a large (90cm long) modern freighter/container ship ... now maybe if we all bombard him for requests for a 150-200 ton "dirty British coaster" he might turn his genius to making something suitable?!

 

If he does, you could build a fleet to rival the East India Company's for a fraction of the cost of a single Artitec kit - and they would be to proper 1:76 scale, too!

 

Steve S

 

NB

No connection to John Wiffen and Scalescenes other than a very happy customer!

 

[Andy Hayter]

Just one further point regarding Thames barges.  In my researches I did establish that a few boats were still operating commercially in the 60s but probably not in the 70s.  I got a strong impression that the work was then restricted to East Coast shipping and no international work at that stage of their lives.

[Johann Marsbar]

47 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Just one further point regarding Thames barges.  In my researches I did establish that a few boats were still operating commercially in the 60s but probably not in the 70s.  I got a strong impression that the work was then restricted to East Coast shipping and no international work at that stage of their lives.

"Cambria" was the last unpowered Thames barge to operate, with its last loaded voyage - into Ipswich dock - on 19th October 1970.

Some of the motorised ones were still in use until the mid to late 1970's, but you were down to no more than 5 or so in operation by that time.

[Joseph_Pestell]

20 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

"Cambria" was the last unpowered Thames barge to operate, with its last loaded voyage - into Ipswich dock - on 19th October 1970.

Some of the motorised ones were still in use until the mid to late 1970's, but you were down to no more than 5 or so in operation by that time.

 

At which point in time they could be bought very cheaply. How I regret not being able to do that.

[Andy Hayter]

Emotionally I would agree Joseph, but the reality was that they were by then real money pits, which is one reason why they stopped being used commercially.  

 

I know of several that were converted to house boats but ended up as Medway mud-bank wrecks within a decade or so.  The owners just could not keep up with the ongoing maintenance and mooring fees.  

[The Johnster]

The term 'Dutch Barge' was used by my father, a Cardiff pilot, to describe seagoing motorvessels not dissimilar in appearance from the (very good and highly detailed) Architec model.  Note that the funnel is not higher than the bridge roof, in order to negotiate bridges.  They were about 180tons gross, and while they could as I say use the inland waterway network in mainland Europe but were not the same thing as the low freeboard vessels built specifically for that purpose; they were designed to be seaworthy for coastal voyages.  They frequently were Dutch, and also Belgian or Danish.  British built coasters of the 50s and 60s were a little larger in general, and too big for the European canals.  The 'Dutch' barges were not really barges, in that they had proper keels and were built more like ships.

 

These were both very different propositions to Puffers or Vics, much larger and more 'ship like', easily capable of quite long voyages, with larger crews and better accommodation.  They were thus also significantly different from the oil/petrol barges common in the upper Bristol Channel in those days, BP and Harker's   Harker's traded down as far as Swansea, and up as far as Diglis, near Worcester.  BP ran from Gloucester via the canal and Sharpness to Avonmouth, and were less common on the Welsh side, but Harker's were very much a part of my childhood and youth.  They were small enough not to require pilotage and their skippers were easily capable of the navigation needed for the Bristol Channel ports, but, like Snowflake, had a reputation for getting into trouble,  This was because of Harker's bonus scheme, where the skipper and crew signed on for a 6 week period and were expected to undertake a set number of trips in that time; if they managed to squeeze another one or two in they pocketed the takings.  

 

That of course meant that they were always in a hurry, coming up from Swansea inside the Nash or Sully Sound, cutting corners, getting stuck under River Severn bridges, and so forth.  This was not a factor in the worst incident, the loss of two of them after a collision and fire in thick fog at Sharpness resulting in the collision with the Severn (railway) Bridge that destroyed it.  They were proper river barges, and to see one passing Porthcawl in rough weather, more or less a submarine, was always 'interesting'.

 

At least back in the 90s, and probably still, there was a photo of 'Snowflake' in the Pier Hotel at Ilfracombe, with a brief description of her owners and work; her bread and butter was coal from Penarth for Ilfracombe's gasworks.  Father remembered her because of the name; she'd emerge from the sea lock at Penarth or sometimes Cardiff's West Dock covered in coal dust after loading, and every inch not a snowflake!

 

 

[Michael Crofts]

I may have already mentioned this on the Little Muddle thread but there was another regular Puffer in the Bristol Channel:-

'BLACK DWARF was an ex-Clyde puffer, which was bought by William Jones of Lydney in the 1890s and traded out of Lydney docks for the next fifty years. She was most aptly named after the Sir Walter Scott novel and is still remembered with great affection by older Lydney folk.'

https://lightmoor.co.uk/about.php

 

And the mention of the sailing barges at Ipswich brings back happy memories. When I was at Ipswich Civic College around 1971 or 1972 I did an analysis of the business of R & W Paul Ltd. for my Geography course, made friends with the blacksmith, and made with my own grubby hands a new rolled and rivetted stove pipe chimney for the Thames barge Thalatta.

 

Having indulged myself with a personal memory I owe it to the panel to include a photo of a dockside crane. Not a very good photo but hopefully the subject is worthwhile, the hand-propelled, hand-operated, wagon-mounted crane on the island of Herm.

 

 

[figworthy]

20 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I don't remember seeing any Dutch barges in small British ports in the 60s and 70s, though they may have been more common on the East coast.  Converted for residential use, they're pretty common now on the tidal Thames round London,  as well as on the GUC but how seaworthy were they for the Channel or North Sea crossing?   

 

 

There were a small number of Dutch (or possibly other neighbouring countries) barges working in the Humber area in the late 70s/early 80s.

 

The low air draught coaster was also being seen in the same area at that time.  Gainsborough was one destination, as there was a wharf upstream of the road bridge that wasn't accessible by the more traditional coaster.

 

Adrian

[Pacific231G]

12 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

"Cambria" was the last unpowered Thames barge to operate, with its last loaded voyage - into Ipswich dock - on 19th October 1970.

Some of the motorised ones were still in use until the mid to late 1970's, but you were down to no more than 5 or so in operation by that time.

I recall in the mid 1960s that the BBC had a TV drama series based around the skipper of a Thames sailing barge struggling to keep it in business and his two daughters one a very straitlaced teacher and the other fairly wild and working in a bar. I can't remember what it was called.

[Michael Crofts]

Just a thought, does anyone know what sort of crane was on the wharf at Snape?

It's shown on the map extract.

No sign of it now.

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, Michael Crofts said:

Just a thought, does anyone know what sort of crane was on the wharf at Snape?

It's shown on the map extract.

No sign of it now.

Hello Michael

I've found very few old photos of the quay but on this one, that from the van marked NE appears to be grouping era, there's a possible small candidate behind the sailing barge (wherry?)

https://raybelcharters.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/RAYBEL_77_Snape-Maltings-

1024x741.jpg 

 

I think the location marked cr on the map would be in this photo so if there's nothing there it would have already gone.

 

It seems that the short 1 1/4 mile  branch to Snape, built to serve the maltings,  never actually had a passenger station but there was a building known as "station house" and that's probably what appears on the map as "Snape Station"

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

Back to Thames sailing barges, no luck tracing the BBC drama but I found a reference to

Britain's Lost Routes with Griff Rhys Jones, Series 1 Episode 2: Thames Barge. I think it was made in 2007 but has turned up on obscure channels. I think I saw it on london live. It gave a good insight into the barges' operation and wasn't too much about the comedian so worth watching out for.

[Johann Marsbar]

17 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Back to Thames sailing barges, no luck tracing the BBC drama but I found a reference to

Britain's Lost Routes with Griff Rhys Jones, Series 1 Episode 2: Thames Barge. I think it was made in 2007 but has turned up on obscure channels. I think I saw it on london live. It gave a good insight into the barges' operation and wasn't too much about the comedian so worth watching out for.

How about a 1970 BBC documentary instead.....

 

[Pacific231G]

Fascinating stuff and more than a few shots of the dockside cranes in the London Docks with a typical Stothert & Pitt crane loading the SB Cambria. There's a more recent programme with Dick Durham, the SB Cambria's last mate who is in that 1970 documentary, aboard the now restored Cambria.  here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAFrAtQ7ZBc

In that film is a photo of a small Dutch motor coaster that Bob Roberts bought after the SB Cambria was no longer fit to carry cargo.

 

Roberts, who as a former journalist wrote a number of books about sailing, was a dyed in the wool sailing ship master so got quite a lot of stick for turning to a motor vessel but it was the only way he could stay at sea. The Vectis Isle looks ideal as a small ship for a layout- not much bigger than a Clyde puffer but far more a ship than a motor lighter.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Michael Crofts]

On 17/10/2020 at 15:05, Pacific231G said:

Hello Michael

I've found very few old photos of the quay but on this one, that from the van marked NE appears to be grouping era, there's a possible small candidate behind the sailing barge (wherry?)

https://raybelcharters.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/RAYBEL_77_Snape-Maltings-

1024x741.jpg 

 

I think the location marked cr on the map would be in this photo so if there's nothing there it would have already gone.

 

It seems that the short 1 1/4 mile  branch to Snape, built to serve the maltings,  never actually had a passenger station but there was a building known as "station house" and that's probably what appears on the map as "Snape Station"

 

Thanks so much for posting that wonderful evocative picture which does not appear in any of the books or magazine articles I have seen. Yes, that must be the crane that is on the map, because it's in the right place and it's unlikely there was ever more than one or that the crane was ever modernised. Not much detail but enough to place it as a standard item from one of the manufacturers of the time.

 

The vessel is a barge, not a wherry. Raybel is well documented - Official No. 145058, 80 tons. Built at Sittingbourne 1920 by Wills & Packham for G.F.Sully, launched in 1920. Isn't she just beautiful? I am always astonished how lovely the artefacts of previous eras were, especially in contrast with the stuff we produce now.

 

Yes, Snape was always goods only, but it had a Station Master, who was caught out one hot summer's day when a train was offered from the junction while he was bathing in the river.

 

I confess apart from the railway this place holds a special interest for me because I grew up at Theberton, and in 2015 my wife and I sailed to Snape and moored on the wharf - it's one of the last remaining harbours in the UK where there is no mooring fee (or, for that matter, harbourmaster, the Rope family being long gone). We passed sailing barge Cygnet on our way upstream, she was being sailed sea-wards single handed, and her skipper was making the passage through Troublesome Reach look easy. My jaw dropped in awe at the seamanship. I was so mesmerised that I lost my concentration and grounded. It was a rising tide and soft mud so no harm done.

 

Thanks again for that picture. Lovely.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Michael Crofts
added picture of Cygnet

[The Johnster]

On 17/10/2020 at 16:33, Pacific231G said:

Fascinating stuff and more than a few shots of the dockside cranes in the London Docks with a typical Stothert & Pitt crane loading the SB Cambria. There's a more recent programme with Dick Durham, the SB Cambria's last mate who is in that 1970 documentary, aboard the now restored Cambria.  here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAFrAtQ7ZBc

In that film is a photo of a small Dutch motor coaster that Bob Roberts bought after the SB Cambria was no longer fit to carry cargo.

 

Roberts, who as a former journalist wrote a number of books about sailing, was a dyed in the wool sailing ship master so got quite a lot of stick for turning to a motor vessel but it was the only way he could stay at sea. The Vectis Isle looks ideal as a small ship for a layout- not much bigger than a Clyde puffer but far more a ship than a motor lighter.

Actually about twice the size of a Clyde puffer, and as a model railway feature about 2 mk1s, or 6 coal wagons, in length.  As a foreground feature that's pretty overpowering in most layout settings.

[Adam88]

On 13/10/2020 at 00:51, Pacific231G said:

I recall in the mid 1960s that the BBC had a TV drama series based around the skipper of a Thames sailing barge struggling to keep it in business and his two daughters one a very straitlaced teacher and the other fairly wild and working in a bar. I can't remember what it was called.

 

King of the River https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_the_River

[Pacific231G]

20 hours ago, Adam88 said:

 

King of the River https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_the_River

Thank you so much Adam. I've been trying to track down that title for ages.

[Pacific231G]

21 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Actually about twice the size of a Clyde puffer, and as a model railway feature about 2 mk1s, or 6 coal wagons, in length.  As a foreground feature that's pretty overpowering in most layout settings.

Do you happen to know the dimensions of the Vectis Isle as I've not been able to track them down. With a single hold she looks smaller than the 127 ft of a pair of Mk 1s but she may be longer than the angle of the photo suggest. The Snowflake was 66ft long  so a puffer able to use the Forth and Clyde Canal but larger puffers could be 88ft long to fit the Crinan Canal that avoided going round the Mull of Kintyre.

I've been trying to consider what distinguishes fully fledged sea-going coasters from more limited vessels like puffers. That's bound to be very subjective but I think for me it includes features like a proper bridge rather than just a wheelhouse, lifeboat(s) in davits and probably a superstructure on a raised quarterdeck.

Artitec's coastal freighter is between 21 and 22 inches long so about 152 ft long in 1:87 scale but is a ship with two holds so not the smallest of this type of vesssel.

There was a regulatory tonnage point of 200 grt below which crews required only experience but I think  a short raised quarter deck coaster of up to maybe 300 grt would be suitable for layout purposes. It would have be somewhat longer than a puffer but a small ship around 100 ft shouldn't dominate a layout. Most seagoing coasters were longer than that but there are enough 90-100 ft examples in Charles Waine's excellent books Steam Coasters and British Motor Coasters to make this not a search for unicorms. 

Some years ago I kitbashed the former Frog Shell Welder kit which was 1:130 scale into a smaller seagoing cargo coaster in 1:87 scale. That's just over sixteen inches long and though the hull was rather narrow and shallow draft it seemed credible.  

 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

I've been trying to consider what distinguishes fully fledged sea-going coasters from more limited vessels like puffers. That's bound to be very subjective but I think for me it includes features like a proper bridge rather than just a wheelhouse, lifeboat(s) in davits and probably a superstructure on a raised quarterdeck.

I don't know what actual size or tonnage 'Vectis Isle' was, but she's certainly much bigger than a puffer.  

 

I agree with the appearance aspect of a sea-going vessel, a proper ship, raised quarterdeck, proper bridge, lifeboats on davits, fixed (not collapsible mast(s) and rigging,  Another difference is a proper keel to enable her to maintain a course in a seaway, not the flat bottom of a barge or puffer.  i believe that there is a more formal aspect to this delineation in the ship's registration, which can be as for coastal or deep sea voyages, though I am unsure of what the demarcation is.