Electronic tickets

[Fenman]

An interesting article in The Guardian about a punter who took - and used - a screen grab of their e-ticket. It did not end happily. 

 

Paul

[JJGraphics]

That is absolutely scandalous.

 

Once the passenger had sent evidence of the payment, that should have been the end of the matter. These officious "collection" companies need to be taught a lesson. If that happened to me and they pursued me after I had provided evidence of payment, I would warn them that they would be reported to the Police for harassment if they made any further contact and then do so if they did.

 

I know this works from experience in helping a neighbour to deal with the bullying tactics of a collection company acting on behalf of a well-know national energy supplier after their billing system screwed up and tried to charge her more than four times her actual bill. Once threatened with the Police the collection company backed-off rapidly and she ended up with a full apology and compensation from the supplier.

 

John

Edited June 30, 2019 by JJGraphics

[Phil Parker]

Remind me what the advantage of an e-ticket is? Never seen the point of them. There's no mobile signal in great chunks of the line between Birmingham and London (yay for 21st century Britain), one of my more regular journeys, so paper wins every time. 

[caradoc]

This was obviously a most unpleasant experience for the passenger, whose planned train was cancelled and who was not treated with any consistency, or seemingly sympathy, by rail staff. But on the other hand.......What is to stop someone with an e-ticket giving (or selling) screen shots to other people ? Do the systems in use record when an e-ticket has been used and prevent it being used again; Perhaps not, given that tickets can be checked multiple times on a long journey, as well as at ticket barriers. And seemingly the passenger had 'lost', the e-mail containing her e-ticket, had she lost a paper ticket she would have been in exactly the same position (or worse, as she would not have got through the barrier at the origin station).

 

While I am happy to use both internet banking, and my smartphone, I do not combine the two, incidents like this are one of the reasons why !

 

[jpendle]

Once an eticket is on your phone you don’t need a connection to show it to the ticket inspector

 

John P

[jonny777]

The point being made was that this wasn't an e-ticket. It was a photo of one. 

 

That leaves the method open to fraud, because how many people could email a photo of a ticket to each other? 

 

At least that is how I understood the story to be.

[The Stationmaster]

Having had a chat with my son (who has used these things - not that he likes them very much because of their shortcomings) and having checked various Conditions of Carriage it looks fairly conclusively that the lady was not using a valid ticket because copies of E tickets are not valid for travel.  This is understandable because copies are open to abuse and falsification.   Thus the ticket examiner who pulled her was acting correctly.

 

Now the can of worms is open let's look at other aspects of what happened.  It is no doubt very easy to be 'accommodating' with somebody at a ticket barrier and on-train and 'bend' the Regulations; great to be really helpful to a passenger and get them on their way.  But if that passenger subsequently comes up against somebody who is suspicious (of possible misuse) or applies the rules then they will be in trouble - as happened on this occasion.  

 

Equally it is probably realistic to say that some staff might not be highly trained in these sort of tickets & the technology and thus don't know what to look out for as potential problems etc whilst others will be 100% on top of the job and have an understanding of the new technology at their finger tips.  In some respects this is no different from 'the old days' when some people had less than 100% understanding of the intricacies of the Ticket Examiners Handbook (oddly I was looking at my copy a few days ago and it is extensive with lots of little byways and wrinkles in it and we could always put together a letter of authority or explanation covered in various official stamps as a way round little difficulties so teh passenger had something to present to an eagle eyed ticket snapper.   Simple lesson - she shouldn't have been allowed to travel without a proper authority to do so - harsh but it would have avoided nastiness later.

 

As far as these independent collection companies are concerned they are, in my experience with one of them, a bunch of sharks who behave like very avaricious sharks.  I suspect they work on commission hence they won't let go of any slightest misdemeanour because if they do they will lose out financially.  It is always difficult when dealing with these things but in any event the first question they should be asking was had the alleged miscreant actually paid for the journey they were trying to make and why didn't they have the correct authority to travel?  We were always suspicious in such circumstances because there will always be chancers about (who might even be sweet ladies of mature years - it happened) but you don't go charging in threatening hanging and quartering or appearance in a Crown Court until you've first established what had happened and why.  And if you then come up with an attempt to avoid payment you really go to town

 

The question that should be asked is under what financial basis do these companies operate?  And if commission is involved the situation needs review.

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

Remind me what the advantage of an e-ticket is? Never seen the point of them. There's no mobile signal in great chunks of the line between Birmingham and London (yay for 21st century Britain), one of my more regular journeys, so paper wins every time. 

The phone  doesn't need to be online. The advantage (when it all works properly) is that you buy your ticket on your phone and it's there. No need to collect. It shouldn't be the only way to buy, but frankly if you're under 35 these days you'll wonder why you can't buy your ticket this way when you do everything else on your phone. This doesn't distract form the major fail by the train company (not helped by outdated legislation that Government can't be bothered to deal with whilst it distracts itself with other things liking self destructing).

Edited June 30, 2019 by andyman7

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

The phone  doesn't need to be online. The advantage (when it all works properly) is that you buy your ticket on your phone and it's there. No need to collect. It shouldn't be the only way to buy, but frankly if you're under 35 these days you'll wonder why you can't buy your ticket this way when you do everything else on your phone. This doesn't distract form the major fail here with the train company (not helped by outdated legislation that Government can't be bothered to deal with whilst it distracts itself with other things liking self destructing).

However if you're 'phone provider's system goes down (as happened with O2 on one occasion) you can finish up without the ticket and have to buy another one.

[andyman7]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

As far as these independent collection companies are concerned they are, in my experience with one of them, a bunch of sharks who behave like very avaricious sharks.  I suspect they work on commission hence they won't let go of any slightest misdemeanour because if they do they will lose out financially.  It is always difficult when dealing with these things but in any event the first question they should be asking was had the alleged miscreant actually paid for the journey they were trying to make and why didn't they have the correct authority to travel?  We were always suspicious in such circumstances because there will always be chancers about (who might even be sweet ladies of mature years - it happened) but you don't go charging in threatening hanging and quartering or appearance in a Crown Court until you've first established what had happened and why.  And if you then come up with an attempt to avoid payment you really go to town

 

The question that should be asked is under what financial basis do these companies operate?  And if commission is involved the situation needs review.

The real issue here is that by default any failure to present the correct ticket has to as these things stand be dealt with under the Regulation of the Railways Act 1889 (yes, that one!) or under the Railway Byelaws. This essentially bring any failure to present a valid ticket within the jursidiction of the courts. Some train operators can operate Penalty Fares, a civil process which (following recent changes) now has amuch strengethened statutory appeal process and, as its name suggests, is not a court matter but a civil one. However, many operators (mainly long distance ones) cannot use this. It is time that the Government legislated to make all ticket irregularities that are not deliberate attempts to avoid payment civil issues.

Edited June 30, 2019 by andyman7

[andyman7]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

However if you're 'phone provider's system goes down (as happened with O2 on one occasion) you can finish up without the ticket and have to buy another one.

Yes, and a properly designed process can accomodate this. If you buy a paper ticket and lose it you lose all the evidence of having bought a ticket. With a properly designed e-ticket process, any issue that prevents you showing it can be verified without the need for nasty letters. 

[The Stationmaster]

3 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

The real issue here is that by default any failure to present the correct ticket has to as these things stand be dealt with under the Regulation of the Railways Act 1889 (yes, that one!) or under the Railway Byelaws. This essentially bring any failure to present a valid ticket within the jursidiction of the courts. Some train operators can operate Penalty Fares, a civil process which (following recent changes) now has amuch strengethened statutory appeal process and, as its name suggests, is not a court matter but a civil one. However, many operators (mainly long distnace ones) cannot use this. It is time that the Government legilsated to make all ticket irregularities that are not deliberate attempts to avoud payment civil issues.

It doesn't automatically bring it to the jurisdiction of the courts provided the passenger gives their name and address if they don't have a valid ticket  Hence my comment taht any investigation should begin by ascertyaining if they did actually pay the fare for the journey they were making.

[DavidLong]

I buy all my rail tickets from the Virgin Trains website although, sadly, not for much longer. I elect to print at a station. This is usually my local station at Atherton and, judging by the huge list that is displayed, it could be at almost any station throughout the network. I'm not a technophobe and I have and use a smart phone but I prefer a handy, credit card sized card ticket. When bought this is tucked into my ticket wallet along with my senior railcard, Oyster card and TfGM bus/tram/rail pass. No problem with failed signals, absent networks and the like. If I lose my ticket it is down to me alone. No arguments. Tough. My fault.

 

David

[jjb1970]

There are some things for which old fashioned tech or even last generation new-ish tech works perfectly well, it's got nothing to do with being a technophobe. I used to quite often drop into a Sainsburys Local on High Holborn on my walk between Euston and the City until they got rid of all the tills (manned and unmanned) and decided that cash, card and contactless were so yesterday and it was more customer friendly to require people to download an app, sign up for a nectar card and have Apple money, what's wrong with contactless, chip and pin or even old fashioned cash if people want to use it? In the case of tickets having a card or paper ticket is simple and just works. 

On the matter of inspection and enforcement, I find most conductors manage it pretty well and are capable of applying judgement (most of them seem to have a well developed nose for BS) but nobody is infallible. However collection companies are sharks in my experience, one of my former employers used them in their retail facing operations (interestingly their own policy was to not pay invoices until they got red letters, a large multi-national energy corporation has a lot of leverage) and the stories of what they got up to weren't edifying. Stuff like this can do lasting damage to a company, it reminds me of the old adage about losing the ship for a penny of tar.

[AMJ]

The collection companies will be giving the staff a commission for all fares/penalties gained. The same is true for guards/TTI.

 

Anyone buying a ticket to ride needs to adhere with the regulations no matter if it's a physical, self printed or one on an app. 

 

A guard friend says that there are many who fail to activate the e tickets and complain when he asks them to pay again.

[MrSimon]

It makes no sense, I can get a ticket on Virgin WC as an electronic ticket and I could print off the PDF or/and save it in my apple wallet.  What's the difference between an eticket in my apple wallet, the actual PDF on my phone screen, a screenshot of the PDF, and a print off of the PDF? I could print the ticket off in case my battery goes, but it's still not an original... I've flown on a screenshot, I don't see why a crosscountry train should be any different

 

I also don't see the relevance of her not being able to get the original email, the emails always say they're not valid for travel there's no point.

 

GTR/Southern style cards aren't the answer because they never offer the cheapest fares, I think unless the rail companies can sort themselves out with a way of validating anything that looks like a ticket (they can scan a QR/Barcode and know if it's been used) is paper tickets all the way for me.

[Fenman]

11 minutes ago, MrSimon said:

...

I've flown on a screenshot, I don't see why a crosscountry train should be any different

...

 

That was my first thought - but flying involves two things that are different: the screenshot is checked against your passport, so they know that it is indeed you using the boarding pass. And you have to sit in your allocated seat in your allocated plane.

 

That’s very different from an e-ticket valid on any train on the route, even though it *feels* as if it’s the same. 

 

Paul

Edited June 30, 2019 by Fenman
Edit: damn autocorrect, thinks it’s smarter than me...

[corneliuslundie]

Whenever possible I buy my ticket over the counter from Gareth at Newtown Station Travel. I can be sure of getting the best deal, a deal which no website will tell me about, such as three tickets for the journey from Newtown to Cardiff - Newtown-Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury-Cwmbran, Cwmbran-Cardiff. And Gareth makes a living that way. I have nothing against technology but I prefer people.

By the way, quite often the on-board staff cannot sell tickets on the Cambrian route because of lack of radio/mobile - not sure which - signal.

Jonathan

[adb968008]

What stops duplicate pdfs being printed out or duplicate downloads to a phone ?

 

it can be done quite easily.

 

I know in Europe, European railways validate an e-tickets authenticity by asking for proof if ID... Whilst that may not occur on the first time (and they stamp your paper), they certainly ask second time, especially if that paper isn’t stamped, or if the system shows up an e-ticket has been validated once already in my experience.

 

[Hesperus]

I appreciate that the screenshot not being valid meant she needed to prove she had paid, though I can very much see why she was angry about that.

 

What I see as criminal is the hounding she received from the TOC and its agent when she had already proven that she had paid to travel.  Both should be investigated and prosecuted in the future if they continue with this approach.  I appreciate that there are a percentage of the population who try to avoid paying and need to be reprimanded.  This was an elderly lady who had paid and quickly sent them proof.

[caradoc]

But the point is not whether she had paid to travel, because clearly she had, but where her ticket was; If she did not have it, was someone else using it, by accident or design ? The means of stopping such practices may be as adb968000 says to have to show ID along with the e-ticket, (or screenshot of it), however there is no requirement in the UK to carry ID ?

 

[Bernard Lamb]

I have never used e tickets on trains but find the system works well with coach and plane tickets.

I have never encountered any problem when travelling.

I have boarded planes in the early days when devices were not as reliable as they are now using a screen shot on a tablet in case the phone version was not accessible.

The current train situation leaves me puzzled.

Tickets are transferable between devices states my local train company.

Now as the ticket is an electronic image why is transferring it by screen shot not acceptable when transferring it by another means is?

My understanding of English law is that an action is allowed unless expressly forbidden.

When does a copy cease to become a valid copy?

Methinks the train companies need to agree and publish some guidelines that are clear to understand and to train all staff involved with customer contact in singing from the same hymn sheet.

Until then I will continue to use a ticket printed at the station that is the same size as my rail card and payment card.

Bernard

[royaloak]

15 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Remind me what the advantage of an e-ticket is? 

One of the big advantages is you dont need to buy a ticket if you are travelling between unmanned stations on a DOO route (Thames Valley for one) until you see the RPIs get on at a station and then everyone fires up their mobile to buy an e-ticket for that day even though they commute 5 days a week, so they only need to buy a daily ticket a couple of times a month instead of a season ticket.

[Phil Parker]

9 minutes ago, royaloak said:

One of the big advantages is you dont need to buy a ticket if you are travelling between unmanned stations on a DOO route (Thames Valley for one) until you see the RPIs get on at a station and then everyone fires up their mobile to buy an e-ticket for that day even though they commute 5 days a week, so they only need to buy a daily ticket a couple of times a month instead of a season ticket.

1

 

So the big benefit of an e-ticket is you can travel without paying. As someone else has said, what's to stop people showing a picture of a ticket they have been sent by someone else too.

 

I love the "and then everyone fires up their mobile to buy an e-ticket for that day even though they commute 5 days a week" -  a scene I can well believe. It rather shows the sort of country Britain is and how little hope there is for us in the future. 

 

(Looks for motivation to get stuff done today. Finds none.)

[melmoth]

@Phil Parker It also puts into some sort of context the aggressive behaviour of the revenue chasing sharks.