Electronic tickets

[royaloak]

10 minutes ago, melmoth said:

@Phil Parker It also puts into some sort of context the aggressive behaviour of the revenue chasing sharks.

Really, so revenue staff expecting commuters (proper ones not the ones in the paper where everyone travelling by train is a commuter) to have a valid ticket makes them revenue chasing sharks does it?

 

I can only assume you are one of those who doesnt play by the rules and then complains when you get caught because it was everyone elses fault but your own!

 

The only time I have had an 'issue' with a ticket examiner was when one questioned me for actually buying a ticket when I didnt need to (I am rail staff) and my reply of 'I wanted a memento of my visit to the station' was met with a grin and him walking off shaking his head.

 

Its normally quite easy and having a valid ticket for your journey instead of an invalid one and something from page one of the book of excuses.

 

 

Referring to the original article, do Cross Country employ the use of Transport Investigations Limited on their trains?

Edited July 1, 2019 by royaloak

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, AMJ said:

The collection companies will be giving the staff a commission for all fares/penalties gained. The same is true for guards/TTI.

 

Anyone buying a ticket to ride needs to adhere with the regulations no matter if it's a physical, self printed or one on an app. 

 

A guard friend says that there are many who fail to activate the e tickets and complain when he asks them to pay again.

Which operators' Guards and revenue protection staff are still paid commission (of the few who actually got it originally)?    FGW/GWR did away with it years ago.

 

10 hours ago, Hesperus said:

I appreciate that the screenshot not being valid meant she needed to prove she had paid, though I can very much see why she was angry about that.

 

What I see as criminal is the hounding she received from the TOC and its agent when she had already proven that she had paid to travel.  Both should be investigated and prosecuted in the future if they continue with this approach.  I appreciate that there are a percentage of the population who try to avoid paying and need to be reprimanded.  This was an elderly lady who had paid and quickly sent them proof.

I think you will find the hounding came not from the TOC but from the collection agency (bunch of sharks) they pay to carry out that 'service' for them.  As I've already said their approach was to start from the wrong end of the telescope and not check whether or not she had actually paid for her journey but they might well have had the view (and probably did) that she was attempting to avoid payment and just carried on from there - she wouldn't have been the first person in their experience to have tried it I'm sure.

 

However as I've said these external agencies are a worrying aspect if dealing with questions of non-payment or failure to present a ticket when required as they seem to show no flexibility (aka commonsense) and they are - from my experience with one such concern - staffed. by people with about as much practical experience of dealing with ticketing and passengers as our recentluy deceased cat.  That is where the system is wrong but never overlook the fact that it all kicked off because she was in the wrong and could not present a valid E-ticket when required to do so.

 

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

So the big benefit of an e-ticket is you can travel without paying. As someone else has said, what's to stop people showing a picture of a ticket they have been sent by someone else too.

 

I love the "and then everyone fires up their mobile to buy an e-ticket for that day even though they commute 5 days a week" -  a scene I can well believe. It rather shows the sort of country Britain is and how little hope there is for us in the future. 

 

(Looks for motivation to get stuff done today. Finds none.)

That effectively was what this lady was doing - although she had apparently sent the copy of the ticket to herself.  If I was involved in any sort of revenue collection/checking (and knew all about these modern systems) it would instantly sound alarm bells for me and in the old days it would have been time to charge her the appropriate Excess Fare and take details of her name and address (and proof of it and her ID if possible) for a Ticket Irregularity Report especially if she refused or was unable to pay.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, royaloak said:

One of the big advantages is you dont need to buy a ticket if you are travelling between unmanned stations on a DOO route (Thames Valley for one) until you see the RPIs get on at a station and then everyone fires up their mobile to buy an e-ticket for that day even though they commute 5 days a week, so they only need to buy a daily ticket a couple of times a month instead of a season ticket.

I am a great believer in natural justice: and this behaviour will win its reward, when the service clearly isn't bringing in the required revenue it will be withdrawn. No need for these stations, no one to speak of travels between them...

[melmoth]

1 hour ago, royaloak said:

Really, so revenue staff expecting commuters (proper ones not the ones in the paper where everyone travelling by train is a commuter) to have a valid ticket makes them revenue chasing sharks does it?

 

I can only assume you are one of those who doesnt play by the rules and then complains when you get caught because it was everyone elses fault but your own!

 

The only time I have had an 'issue' with a ticket examiner was when one questioned me for actually buying a ticket when I didnt need to (I am rail staff) and my reply of 'I wanted a memento of my visit to the station' was met with a grin and him walking off shaking his head.

 

Its normally quite easy and having a valid ticket for your journey instead of an invalid one and something from page one of the book of excuses.

 

 

Referring to the original article, do Cross Country employ the use of Transport Investigations Limited on their trains?

 

You have completely missed the point I was making, which as it was quite a brief point, might be better made with further elucidation.

 

1. On the one hand, we are presented, via a newspaper article, with the spectacle of someone who has paid for a digital ticket being chased for proof of payment beyond what most of us would consider to be reasonable.

2. On the other hand, your first post seemed to suggest that at least one loophole exists regarding digital ticketing, and that loophole is widely known among a particular set of passengers and is being frequently exploited. 

3. My point - and perhaps I should have explained it more clearly, or at greater length - was that if there are such known loopholes in the digital ticketing system and they are being used to defraud a TOC, is it any wonder that those appointed to chase up suspected fraud (not the on-train inspectors) behave in a more gung-ho manner than we might reasonably think of as necessary?

 

I note your assumption regarding my character  - an impressive effort based on one line of text - and invite you to withdraw it.

[royaloak]

Ah clarification of what you actually meant, thank you, reading your post it sounded like you were calling all revenue staff inappropriate names!

While we, as the poster, understand what we want to write in a post sometimes it loses all context and is easily misconstrued when actually written, something I am as guilty of as everyone else.

 

While E-tickets work well for coaches and flights (where your ticket is checked before boarding) it doesnt work so well when there are no checks before boarding as on the railway network, while its a good idea in principle it doesnt really work in practice unless all stations have gatelines.

Edited July 1, 2019 by royaloak

[AMJ]

Northern definitely get commission on sales of tickets. On a day as spare a friend often stands near a ticket barrier selling the passenger who needs one to get out of the station a ticket. Easy money during the rush hour!

[royaloak]

1 minute ago, AMJ said:

Northern definitely get commission on sales of tickets. On a day as spare a friend often stands near a ticket barrier selling the passenger who needs one to get out of the station a ticket. Easy money during the rush hour!

Commission on ordinary tickets yes, penalty fares etc no.

[Reorte]

16 hours ago, DavidLong said:

I buy all my rail tickets from the Virgin Trains website although, sadly, not for much longer. I elect to print at a station. This is usually my local station at Atherton and, judging by the huge list that is displayed, it could be at almost any station throughout the network. I'm not a technophobe and I have and use a smart phone but I prefer a handy, credit card sized card ticket. When bought this is tucked into my ticket wallet along with my senior railcard, Oyster card and TfGM bus/tram/rail pass. No problem with failed signals, absent networks and the like. If I lose my ticket it is down to me alone. No arguments. Tough. My fault.

Mostly OK although I had a problem with that one once too. I was collecting my ticket from Waverley, when I got there all the machines had been turned off so I couldn't get my ticket (the booking office couldn't help either). All to do with them having just evacuated the station due to a (fortunately false alarm) scare about something, so just one of those things. Fortunately the train started there so the staff knew what was going on and I was OK but I suppose they'd have been within their rights to make things awkward for me.

[royaloak]

The number of people who buy 'print at home' tickets and then try and use the email on their phone as proof of purchase is also quite high, I would think the clue would be in the name!

[Reorte]

4 minutes ago, royaloak said:

The number of people who buy 'print at home' tickets and then try and use the email on their phone as proof of purchase is also quite high, I would think the clue would be in the name!

 

It doesn't make much sense that printing out an email would be a valid proof of purchase but the email still in electronic form isn't. OK this is rather absurd but it suggests that if you carried a printer on to the train the phone image wouldn't be accepted but you could print that out there and then and be OK.

 

Personally I think I'll stick with the traditional tickets though! Keep things simple.

[admiles]

Having a "traditional ticket" is no guarantee of a hassle-free trip either. Sorry to burst that bubble for people.

 

I was once turfed off a Northen Train for, in the eyes of the guard/Ticket inspector "having fake ticket". The fact that it came from

a ticket machine and I had the debit card receipt for the ticket also printed on the "traditional" orange and white card with me made no

difference. 

 

All it takes is a member of staff to have a bad day and their bad day becomes your bad day!

Edited July 1, 2019 by admiles

[PaulCheffus]

5 hours ago, caradoc said:

But the point is not whether she had paid to travel, because clearly she had, but where her ticket was; If she did not have it, was someone else using it, by accident or design ? The means of stopping such practices may be as adb968000 says to have to show ID along with the e-ticket, (or screenshot of it), however there is no requirement in the UK to carry ID ?

 

Hi

 

I have bought tickets to travel in August and the ticket states the following

 

"This ticket is only valid when presented with a valid form of ID issued in the name of the person holding the ticket:
Credit Card, Debit Card, National Railcard, Passport, National ID Card or Driving Licence"

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

I have bought tickets to travel in August and the ticket states the following

 

"This ticket is only valid when presented with a valid form of ID issued in the name of the person holding the ticket:
Credit Card, Debit Card, National Railcard, Passport, National ID Card or Driving Licence"

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Which is what I remember being practiced by DB around 15 years ago. You could book online in the UK, print your ticket (which carried a QR code) at home, and when the DB inspector checked it using his hand held scanner, you had to present the credit/debit card that had been used to purchase the ticket. 

 

Jim

[corneliuslundie]

I assume that the ticket must have been bought using some sort of electronic means. There is no requirement for anyone to have any of "Credit Card, Debit Card, National Railcard, Passport, National ID Card or Driving Licence" so to place a general restriction of this type on the use of a ticket is unacceptable.

By the way, not a railway issue, but a while ago one of these "collection" firms was caught putting up fake signs beside cars and then photographing them to "prove" that they had parked illegally and had to pay the price. Fortunately, one of the car owners had a "before" photo.

Jonathan

[The Stationmaster]

13 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I assume that the ticket must have been bought using some sort of electronic means. There is no requirement for anyone to have any of "Credit Card, Debit Card, National Railcard, Passport, National ID Card or Driving Licence" so to place a general restriction of this type on the use of a ticket is unacceptable.

By the way, not a railway issue, but a while ago one of these "collection" firms was caught putting up fake signs beside cars and then photographing them to "prove" that they had parked illegally and had to pay the price. Fortunately, one of the car owners had a "before" photo.

Jonathan

Depends on the ticket.  There are plenty of ticket categories which require the holder to produce when required some form of identification or discount card to prove their entitlement to hold a ticket of that sort.

[PaulCheffus]

29 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I assume that the ticket must have been bought using some sort of electronic means.

Hi

 

Ticket was bought online as I live 30 miles from the station and wanted to ensure I would be able to travel on the specific days.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[njee20]

3 hours ago, royaloak said:

While E-tickets work well for coaches and flights (where your ticket is checked before boarding) it doesnt work so well when there are no checks before boarding as on the railway network, while its a good idea in principle it doesnt really work in practice unless all stations have gatelines.

You realise the specific issue here was that her ticket had been checked (and approved) by gate line staff... if the staff at Temple Meads had said “sorry, you need the actual ticket”, the subsequent altercation with the CrossCountry staff wouldn’t have happened. 

[royaloak]

So once again its the staffs fault.

[JJGraphics]

10 hours ago, caradoc said:

But the point is not whether she had paid to travel, because clearly she had, but where her ticket was; If she did not have it, was someone else using it, by accident or design ? The means of stopping such practices may be as adb968000 says to have to show ID along with the e-ticket, (or screenshot of it), however there is no requirement in the UK to carry ID ?

 

 

The point, as others have said, is that you can print your ticket and present that and there is nothing to stop a ticket being printed multiple times.

 

It is the system that is a fault in not being able to validate a ticket immediately as is done in other countries.

 

John

[JJGraphics]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I assume that the ticket must have been bought using some sort of electronic means. There is no requirement for anyone to have any of "Credit Card, Debit Card, National Railcard, Passport, National ID Card or Driving Licence" so to place a general restriction of this type on the use of a ticket is unacceptable.

By the way, not a railway issue, but a while ago one of these "collection" firms was caught putting up fake signs beside cars and then photographing them to "prove" that they had parked illegally and had to pay the price. Fortunately, one of the car owners had a "before" photo.

Jonathan

 

A lot of these collection companies as just a load of scumbags out to make money, mostly from vulnerable or gullible people.

[Arun Sharma]

5 hours ago, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

I have bought tickets to travel in August and the ticket states the following

 

"This ticket is only valid when presented with a valid form of ID issued in the name of the person holding the ticket:
Credit Card, Debit Card, National Railcard, Passport, National ID Card or Driving Licence"

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Some of the tickets that you can print off at home have an extensive watermark printed through them that prints the name on the credit/debit card that was used to pay for them. In such circumstances it would be quite straightforward for a RPI to confirm that the ticket holder is the person whose card was used for the purchase.

[mikejames]

as a old age pensioner

my conclusion from reading this thread is

don't use e tickets - its too complicated

 

mike james

Edited July 1, 2019 by mikejames
spelling correction

[njee20]

4 hours ago, royaloak said:

So once again its the staffs fault.

Well that's what you said, yes.

 

It's up to the staff to tell the customer they're not carrying a valid ticket. Two accepted it, one rejected it (overly aggresively, hence the story). If the staff did their job and said "sorry, this ticket isn't valid", then it wouldn't have been a story, although I imagine she'd have been peeved.

[laurenceb]

As I understand it E-tickets are dyanamic in that the validation code changes to prevent copying so an e-mailed copy would show an invalid code

[Bernard Lamb]

14 hours ago, royaloak said:

So once again its the staffs fault.

Yes.

As I pointed out in a previous post there is a lack of checking on the procedures regarding the use of e tickets.

In the article staff at one location have taken a different view to staff in another location.

That points to the back room staff getting it wrong rather than the front line staff but however you look at it the system is in a bit of a mess.

I mentioned on another thread the cut backs in staff on another TOC. As did other people.

There do seem to be cut backs taking place and in this case lack of staff training seems to be part of the problem.

Bernard