Ruston Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 I recently had a box of various industrial photos given to me by a friend. Whilst most have the photographer and details of the loco written on the back, this one has nothing at all. As it's a modern print it could have been a photo of a photo but I really don't know. Anyway, what I would like to know is what is it and where is it? It's clearly very old and out of use when photographed. I think whatever it is it didn't start out like that and could have been heavily rebuilt at some time, possibly not even being an 0-4-0, or a tank engine when new. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Looks like it could have come out of Boulton's Siding. Many oddly proportioned locos came from there Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 30, 2019 Author Share Posted June 30, 2019 25 minutes ago, RLWP said: Looks like it could have come out of Boulton's Siding. Many oddly proportioned locos came from there Richard If it did it's not one either mentioned or drawn in A.R. Bennett's book but I can see why you'd say that as it's just the sort of thing where Boulton would take a main line tender loco, put smaller wheels on, fit a saddle tank and hire or sell it to industry. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Im 99% sure its ex mainline, but inside cylindered, outside framed 0-4-0s are extremely uncommon either mainline or industrial, Bennett does say his account of Mr Bs locos is incomplete but thats no reason to assume it was one of his Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 30, 2019 Author Share Posted June 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Killian keane said: Im 99% sure its ex mainline, but inside cylindered, outside framed 0-4-0s are extremely uncommon either mainline or industrial, Bennett does say his account of Mr Bs locos is incomplete but thats no reason to assume it was one of his I have been looking through the book and noting the particulars of the suspension on the drawings of outside-framed engines. None of them have the rod that goes from the spring to the axlebox on the outside of the frame plate as does the engine in the photo. Perhaps if we can find some main line types that have this feature we could have something to work from. Do you know of anything with this feature? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 I've seen something similar before. Possibly Welsh. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 The question is: will Sir Douglas be able to resist the challenge? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Ruston said: I have been looking through the book and noting the particulars of the suspension on the drawings of outside-framed engines. None of them have the rod that goes from the spring to the axlebox on the outside of the frame plate as does the engine in the photo. Perhaps if we can find some main line types that have this feature we could have something to work from. Do you know of anything with this feature? Jenny Lind had it, I know as I just finished the cad work for it, it could possibly be one of the engines bennett knows nothing about besides being tank engines, those being fairy, Atlantic, Victory Exeter and 44, in my travels someone told me Boulton had another unrecorded loco called Phoenix Edited June 30, 2019 by Killian keane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rope runner Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 This is looks familiar but I can't place it right now - I think I've seen it in a softback IRS booklet but it's not in the ones I've bought. Paul A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 11 minutes ago, Killian keane said: Jenny Lind had it, I know as I just finished the cad work for it The cab to me says Black Hawthorn. Who happened to build Jenny Linds when they were known as John Coulthard and Son. Could it be something by them? Quote Their first loco was York, Newcastle and Berwick Railway number 156, a 2-4-0 to the Jenny Lind pattern. There followed more of the same and several 0-6-0 engines. Although the works numbers went up to 100, probably only twenty were new, since the company carried out a great deal of rebuilding work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black,_Hawthorn_%26_Co Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 30, 2019 Author Share Posted June 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, Killian keane said: Jenny Lind had it, I know as I just finished the cad work for it E.B. Wilson. Yes, there are several drawings in Mark Smithers book that show it. The OW&WR 2-4-0s and the Manyport & Carlise "Wilson Goods" 0-6-0s have it. The safety valve cover would be a dead giveaway if it is a Wilson but it's missing. The profile of the weatherboard, however, is just like the OW&WR locos, but that's clutching at straws. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 From Wiki. The frames are similar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York,_Newcastle_and_Berwick_Railway Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 30, 2019 Author Share Posted June 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said: From Wiki. The frames are similar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York,_Newcastle_and_Berwick_Railway Jason The loco you show there is an 0-4-2 for the Stanhope & Tyne. The Newcastle & Berwick loco, by Coulthard, was a 2-4-0. There's a picture of it in British Steam Locomotive Builders, by James W. Lowe. The N&B loco was named Jenny Lind but there were probably about half a dozen engines on railways up and down the country that carried the name at the same time. The original Jenny Lind, by E.B. Wilson, was a 2-2-2 for the LB&SCR. The Midland had one almost identical and with the same name; all very confusing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 59 minutes ago, 1whitemoor said: This is looks familiar but I can't place it right now Same here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgood Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) Same photo, and another of the same loco, here: also with a clue that might be worth pursuing? https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/4735776113/in/album-72157624214785241/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/4736413782/in/album-72157624214785241/ Edited July 1, 2019 by Osgood 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 That is such a brilliant photograph, that loco has it's history written all over it The lamp sockets are interesting, higher on the right than on the left (?) Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) The second photo mentioned 'ex NBR' so Id like to draw your attention to this Its not a perfect match, the telltale spring rods are not present and the whole loco is too long but its not a million miles out Edited July 1, 2019 by Killian keane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir douglas Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) as a comment says in the flickr, Lochgelly iron and coal company No 3 though thats all i know Edited July 1, 2019 by sir douglas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 7 hours ago, Killian keane said: The second photo mentioned 'ex NBR' so Id like to draw your attention to this Its not a perfect match, the telltale spring rods are not present and the whole loco is too long but its not a million miles out The chimney is of a similar style. Perhaps the NBR had locomotives of a similar type built by E.B. Wilson? Has anyone got any information about early NBR locomotives, or an E.B. Wilson works list? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) How about this one? North Eastern Railway 231, Ex- York, Newcastle & Berwick. Built by E.B Wilson No. 1704 in 1854. The chimney is the same, the bracket holding the boiler to the frames at the smokebox is the same. The suspension rods are on the outside. I'm not saying that our mystery loco is this one, or that it was an 0-6-0 (it could have been an 0-4-2?) but it's definitely got Wilson features and was probably built for either the NER or NBR. Edited July 1, 2019 by Ruston 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 37 minutes ago, Ruston said: How about this one? North Eastern Railway 231, Ex- York, Newcastle & Berwick. Built by E.B Wilson No. 1704 in 1854. The chimney is the same, the bracket holding the boiler to the frames at the smokebox is the same. The suspension rods are on the outside. I'm not saying that our mystery loco is this one, or that it was an 0-6-0 (it could have been an 0-4-2?) but it's definitely got Wilson features and was probably built for either the NER or NBR. https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-LNER-CONSTITUENT-COMPANIES/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-THE-NORTH-EASTERN-RALIWAY/i-2b587rt/A This is way out of my league , but I'm going to chip in.... I'm struggling to imagine this as an 0-6-0 or even 0-4-2, because the back end of such a loco would project so far out if the rear wheels were removed... But I have heard that the 19th century NBR and possibly one or two other Scottish railways made use of 0-4-0 tender engines, on quite a large scale. Some kind of NBR 0-4-0 rebuilt as a saddle tank seems a logical possibility. That would fit nicely with a provenance from Lochgelly in Fife 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir douglas Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 the buffers match the NB style with a small diameter and a hole in the middle. if you look at the second flickr link by osgood and compare with this, the buffers and the chimney match, but the rest of the loco obviously doesnt https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-LNER-CONSTITUENT-COMPANIES/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-THE-NORTH-BRITISH-RAILWAY/i-GRm5cXQ/A 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgood Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Various early 0-4-0 tender engines listed within this resource - quite possibly one was the basis for this rebuild: https://www.nbrstudygroup.co.uk/nbr/locomotives.php Worth placing an enquiry with the study group? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Osgood said: Various early 0-4-0 tender engines listed within this resource - quite possibly one was the basis for this rebuild: https://www.nbrstudygroup.co.uk/nbr/locomotives.php Worth placing an enquiry with the study group? Looking down the list there are a lot of 0-4-0 tender engines inherited from constituents , mostly attributed to "Hawthorns of Leith" , and distinct suggestions of association with Fife or mineral traffic Two 0-4-0s of 1868 vintage built by the NBR even made it to the LNER In particular Quote 0-4-0 tender engines. 2 engines originally built for the Leven & East of Fife Railway by Black Hawthorn in 1870-74. Acquired by the NBR in 1877 and allocated NBR nos 482 & 483. Edited July 1, 2019 by Ravenser Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCJACOB Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) Industrial Locomotives of Scotland Handbook mentions, briefly, only one possible candidate locomotive No 3 0-4-0 with inside cylinders built 1840 and scrapped circa 1890 the interest bit was stated to be ex NBR Since NBR inception was in 1846 this just adds to mystery. Fair to say early NBR investigations can be “interesting” though. Nothing leaps out in SLS book on early NBR locomotives. Edited July 1, 2019 by DOCJACOB Missed something 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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