Advice from Veg Growers/Farmers needed!

[David C]

Looking in my fridge at the veg, there's broccoli from the UK, asparagus from Peru and beans from Kenya. It seems as though the seasons have been abolished by supermarkets jetting in veg and fruit from all over the world whenever they are not in season in the UK. When I was a kid in the 1950s, before cheap flights, polytunnels etc not every variety of grub was available year round, but unfortunately, I can't recall what was in the shops at what time of year. Wikipedia is not very helpful on this.

 

I'm sure most RMWebbers are fascinated by my diet, but for the few who aren't, what veg were grown when is of importance scenically. If I model a potato field or my 1:76 scale station master grows tomatoes on his allotment during the wrong season, then that is as bad as running 4 wheel clerestory coaches behind, say, a class 66! 

 

Are there any farmers or allotment holders who can advise this ignorant townie (who has only ever grown weeds successfully)? My layouts feature deciduous trees in full leaf (partly as view blockers but mainly because trees in winter are a real pain to make), so the season is late spring to early autumn and the period sometime in the 1950s. 

What would be growing in fields and allotments then?

 

Thanks in advance

 

David C

 

 

[eastwestdivide]

There's the Royal Horticultural Society seasonal veg planner, showing when to sow, plant out and harvest.

It downloads you a PDF, here: https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/pdfs/vegplanner.pdf

 

and plenty more advice if you type "seasonal veg" into google.

 

As for what's more common back in the 50s, I'd just be fairly conservative/traditional with what might be grown - don't suppose many people grew garlic or chillies back then.

 

Happy gardening!

Edited July 1, 2019 by eastwestdivide

[petethemole]

In Mid-Bedfordshire in the early '60s the market gardeners' fields in summer mostly contained cabbages (various), broad beans, peas, young brussel sprout plants and kale. I worked on the pea & broad bean harvest in early August. Runner beans were common on allotments but I don't recall them in fields round our way. After a summer rain shower the cabbage fields had an unpleasant odour, caused I believe by slug & snail poop getting wet.

[Fat Controller]

5 minutes ago, petethemole said:

In Mid-Bedfordshire in the early '60s the market gardeners' fields in summer mostly contained cabbages (various), broad beans, peas, young brussel sprout plants and kale. I worked on the pea & broad bean harvest in early August. Runner beans were common on allotments but I don't recall them in fields round our way. After a summer rain shower the cabbage fields had an unpleasant odour, caused I believe by slug & snail poop getting wet.

The nasty smell from the cabbage fields would have been the sulphur compounds in the leaves; you still encounter this when you drive into Thanet. Runner beans would have been more of a domestic garden crop, as you don't harvest them in one go, but simply those that are 'the right size' for eating.

My great-grandparents had a small-holding near Newport (Mon) until WW2. They grew greens of various types, potatoes, and raised pigs and hens on the unmarketable bits of greens and potatoes. My mother used to stay with them over the summer holidays, and would riddle the potatoes when they were brought back; these would be for the pigs.

[jonny777]

50 minutes ago, David C said:

Looking in my fridge at the veg, there's broccoli from the UK, asparagus from Peru and beans from Kenya. It seems as though the seasons have been abolished by supermarkets jetting in veg and fruit from all over the world whenever they are not in season in the UK. When I was a kid in the 1950s, before cheap flights, polytunnels etc not every variety of grub was available year round, but unfortunately, I can't recall what was in the shops at what time of year. Wikipedia is not very helpful on this.

 

I'm sure most RMWebbers are fascinated by my diet, but for the few who aren't, what veg were grown when is of importance scenically. If I model a potato field or my 1:76 scale station master grows tomatoes on his allotment during the wrong season, then that is as bad as running 4 wheel clerestory coaches behind, say, a class 66! 

 

Are there any farmers or allotment holders who can advise this ignorant townie (who has only ever grown weeds successfully)? My layouts feature deciduous trees in full leaf (partly as view blockers but mainly because trees in winter are a real pain to make), so the season is late spring to early autumn and the period sometime in the 1950s. 

What would be growing in fields and allotments then?

 

Thanks in advance

 

David C

 

 

 

 

In the early summer, most farmers fields would only have smallish plants growing in them because in those days most crops were spring sown. Autumn sown cereals and oilseed rape are more modern practices. 

 

In school holidays, I found backbreaking employment hoeing weeds from all manner of crops in Lincolnshire, cabbages, cauliflowers, sugar beet, etc; and in May/June most crops were not much more than 18 inches high and many far less. Peas and beans were a bit higher because they tend to crop in late June/early July. Potatoes would not be much above the soil at the end of May, because of the risk of a late frost, but would be full leaf by July although would need tiny furrows to be modelled. 

 

It becomes more difficult in late July/August because cereal crops start to ripen at that time and (of course) change colour. You really have to pick a month and stick to it, unless you have interchangeable mats for ripe cereals. 

 

Even grass is not reliable, because from late June onwards fields would be mown for silage or hay and this would be piled up or baled in the fields; and the same applies to cereals later in August/through September. 

 

One of the more reliable arable crops for modelling later in the season is sugar beet, as this stays in the ground until late Autumn and has lots of broad green leaves which would cover much of the soil for months. 

[David C]

Wow! That's a very impressive and speedy response from members on what must be a pretty esoteric query. Many thanks to you all for some very useful information. 

 

Now all I need do is work out how to reproduce 'em in model form.

 

David C

Ex rivet counter

Now a cabbage/sprout/potato counter!!!!

[GWR_Modeller]

Re 1950s.  The use of tractors had become very wide spread by this time and so 'tram lines' in fields of arable crops was much more common than pre war.  Tram lines occur when tractors and implements need repeated access to the field/crop.  Initially for cultivation, then sowing, pesticide application and, less relevantly, for harvesting and use the same tracks in the season to avoid damaging the crops.   The agro chemical industry has massively grown since the 1950s so tramlines were not universal in the 50s as they are today.

 

Fields were much smaller.  Headlands were there for horse teams and tractors to turn.

 

Don't plant canola in 1950.

 

Paul

[Nick Holliday]

I've got a book that I've had since the fifties which, for a children's book, contains a lot of facts about farming both then, and earlier. Too much to provide here, particularly as so much depends upon location and the precise time of year. For instance, in 1874, on average 100 acres required 4.7 men and 4.2 horses, and sustained 19.6 cows, whereas in 1956 2.3 men and 0.8 of a horse kept 34 cattle. Comparing 1930 with 1957, for every 3 sheep before the war, there were only 2, but for every 2 catlle earlier, the were three and a half.

It has an interesting Farmer's Calendar, for the London area, showing monthly activities. Hay making was important in June and July, silage was just coming in during the decade, potatoes and other root crops were being hoed, and the corn crops were happily growing and then ripening for harvesting in August.

For ultimate accuracy, it advises that root crops need a fine tilth and the rows are betweeen 18 and 20 inches apart, and kale rows are 24 to 30 inches.  Potato rows are 27 inches apart, with the sets every 12 inches.

Don't forget that the agri-chemical industry was less important then, and farmers would rely more on crop rotation to maintain fertility, so not every field would be cropped, either laid fallow or with something like clover or peas to help aid the nitrogen content. Also the breeds of wheat, oats, barley and rye were mainly long-stalk variaties, the shorter modern types hadn't been fully developed, and combine harvesters were relatively rare beaasts. (That's why corn dolly making is rather harder to source these days!)

[David C]

Thanks again to GWR_Modeller and Nick Holliday. All very useful stuff. I'm thinking of two fields, one of spuds or cabbages and one fallow at the front of the layout, with another of livestock (sheep or cattle) at the rear. Contents of allotments (of which there are two planned) yet to be decided.

 

Best wishes

 

David C

[The White Rabbit]

In terms of veg, you could go down the route of Busch plastic kits or the traditional scenic scatter, possibly on static grass fibres. Below shows one of my attempts to represent a smallholding:

 

The caulis, cabbages etc. are the former (Busch do do spuds too but no pictures of those sorry) and the strips either side are static grass strips, the ones near the apple trees with scatter (GreenScene I think) glued on, as I thought the colour and texture was similar to densely planted brassicas. The strips near the goats were left unadorned as I thought they were close(ish!) to carrot tops. Near the gate is where they have been pulled, with some Woodland Scenics scatter intended to show where new growth was coming through. Runner beans, peas, nasturtiums, lavender and the greenhouse' tomato plant were done with various scatters, 'canes' from plastic section. 

 

Note the apples are rather overscale and probably very early! 

[mwrosebury2000]

You wont get much after the goats have finished.

The seasons vary from location to location as well, my mum is an hour drive further south than me and is a good couple of weeks ahead in the garden.

Don't forget the large round silage bails are a modern thing. At 33 I can't remember many round bails as a kid as hay bails were the much smaller square (rectangle) bails stored in the barn.

The time of year that fields are cut have changed over the years too, some fields today are just mono grass rather than a mix of grasses and wild flowers. This is starting to change due to various environmental schemes.

 

Mark

[David C]

Again, thank you gentlemen for your replies. The White Rabbit's photos are spot on - some inspiring modelling there.

 

David C

[DonB]

In a garden, Goats will eat everything!  So will Sheep (except Leeks, if the visitation I endured a few years back is any guide !) 

[Nick Holliday]

Another useful book I've got on my shelf is "How to Grow and Produce Your Own Food". 

I've no idea of its date, but this picture sets the scene:

 

 

Those days when you wore a shirt and tie at all times!

The books gives a typical (?) planting plan for an allotment

Notice the space given to onions and potatoes. There is also a plan for a smaller garden

 

 

As others have noted, there is an absence of some recent exotic plants, but a number of less popular, nowadays, types do feature, such as the Jerusalem artichokes grown as a wind break, as well as for the tubers.

Finally, a useful guide as to when various vegetables would be planted out and when they were ready for cropping.  Some of this would be dependent on latitude, and some recent development have now extended the growing seasons, with modern varieties, fertilisers and innovations such as fleece and polytunnels. The advice here I suspect holds good for the first sixty years of the twentieth century. It's worth noting that some crops might stay in the ground for some time after they were ready, no freezers to store them if harvested early.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Nick Holliday
Edited to remove duplicate image

[Fat Controller]

Collar and tie- definitely under-dressed. I remember my grandfather would also wear a waistcoat (mainly because he needed somewhere to put his pocket watch). You'd probably not double-dig your veg plot after the first year either; too much like hard work. You would, however, probably incorporate manure/ other organic matter whilst turning the soil, especially if your soil was the slightest bit 'heavy'; I remember fetching barrow-loads of grass-clippings from the loacl cricket-pitch for this. 

[Benbow]

Probably the starting point needs to be the location of your railway. East was predominantly arable and/or mixed whereas the west tended to be more livestock orientated due to the higher rainfall. There were still a good number of horses employed on farms in the 50's, we still had two as they were useful for light carting and feeding livestock. Much like the proverbial milkman's horse you didn't have to keep getting on and off to move them!   Avoid tramlines mentioned above as they weren't common until the 70's. There are several nice exhibition layouts spoilt for anyone with an agricultural background by having one of the photo back scenes showing fields with tramlines and Great Western rolling stock.

Regards

Roger (70 years a farmer )

[Julia]

 

One of the most common inaccuracies when people model an allotment or garden, is to have it fully populated. Whilst there are periods where you do have an allotment or garden totally full of full size cabbages and potatoes etc.. The reality is not everything ripens at once, so you will end up with some bits being dug over and harvested, while others are still growing. Leave a row empty, have a row half harvested, have weeds growing... etc...

 

Also consider many gardeners will rotate crops. So they will typically grow all the brassicas together (Cabbage, sprouts, broccoli etc...), the spuds together (along with tomatoes and peppers), then the beans, then the root veg, So having it all mixed together can look wrong. 

 

When it comes to small scale farming, consider how the machines work with the crop. Long narrow fields are easier to use than a square field.

 

If you're really going for rivet counter points, work out which direction is North on your layout, and maintain consistency across it. Plants grow in different ways depending on orientation. Not to mention that the direction that farmers/gardeners will plant their rows will also depend on the sun. Finally with that you can consider which direction the shade of trees buildings goes in, if you have a big apple tree, planting cabbages in front of it on the south side is fine, but on the north side, that's a nono...

 

Julia

[David C]

Once again, thanks to all those RMweb-ers who responded to my original request for information. You've all given me enough food (!!!!) for thought. I now have to decide whether the fiddle yard or the buffer stops are north, south, east or west! Anyone any ideas how to reproduce the passage of the sun from east to west during the course of the day? 

 

David C

[Julia]

14 hours ago, David C said:

Once again, thanks to all those RMweb-ers who responded to my original request for information. You've all given me enough food (!!!!) for thought. I now have to decide whether the fiddle yard or the buffer stops are north, south, east or west! Anyone any ideas how to reproduce the passage of the sun from east to west during the course of the day? 

 

David C

 

Stand on the east/west axis, with a big arse lamp, walk from east end to the west end in a line. Now watch as the line of the shadows moves. 

 

Don't worry too much about changing the height of the lamp, on this scale you won't notice it much. 

 

J

[David C]

The main problem with your suggestion of using a big arse lamp is that I will have to co-ordinate the timetable with walking east to west. Clearly, when the morning trains arrive/depart, the lamp will have to be at the east end of the layout. For mid morning trains, the lamp should be somewhere between the east and the exact middle of the layout where it will need to be for services around noon. Obviously, the lamp will continue westwards in the same fashion until the last train of the day.

 

In order to make this work, there will have to be some kind of pulley system running the entire length of the layout. I did think of motorising this, but think a hamster or mouse or similar creature in an exercise wheel could provide the power. When it was time to run the 4.30pm, I could simply jam a pencil in the wheel when the lamp was about 3/4 of the way to the west.

 

I really think I should have built the layout to S4 standards.

 

David C

[Marly51]

On 16/07/2019 at 07:59, Nick Holliday said:

Another useful book I've got on my shelf is "How to Grow and Produce Your Own Food". 

I've no idea of its date, but this picture sets the scene:

 

Those days when you wore a shirt and tie at all times!

The books gives a typical (?) planting plan for an allotment

 

Notice the space given to onions and potatoes. There is also a plan for a smaller garden

 

As others have noted, there is an absence of some recent exotic plants, but a number of less popular, nowadays, types do feature, such as the Jerusalem artichokes grown as a wind break, as well as for the tubers.

Finally, a useful guide as to when various vegetables would be planted out and when they were ready for cropping.  Some of this would be dependent on latitude, and some recent development have now extended the growing seasons, with modern varieties, fertilisers and innovations such as fleece and polytunnels. The advice here I suspect holds good for the first sixty years of the twentieth century. It's worth noting that some crops might stay in the ground for some time after they were ready, no freezers to store them if harvested early.

 

 

 

Reminds me of ‘Adam the Gardener’, the illustrated gardening guide, which my mum followed, in the ‘Daily Express’ in the 1950s!

 

[Julia]

6 hours ago, David C said:

The main problem with your suggestion of using a big arse lamp is that I will have to co-ordinate the timetable with walking east to west. Clearly, when the morning trains arrive/depart, the lamp will have to be at the east end of the layout. For mid morning trains, the lamp should be somewhere between the east and the exact middle of the layout where it will need to be for services around noon. Obviously, the lamp will continue westwards in the same fashion until the last train of the day.

 

In order to make this work, there will have to be some kind of pulley system running the entire length of the layout. I did think of motorising this, but think a hamster or mouse or similar creature in an exercise wheel could provide the power. When it was time to run the 4.30pm, I could simply jam a pencil in the wheel when the lamp was about 3/4 of the way to the west.

 

I really think I should have built the layout to S4 standards.

 

David C

 

I misunderstood, I thought you wanted to see how the shadows moved relative to the parts of your layout so you could accurately model the plat life. 

 

For simulating the sun's movement, the approach I'm using (if I can ever get it to work), is a matrix of Sk6812 RGBW LED's above the layout. Each LED is addressable, and controllable, both in colour, and brightness. As I effectively have a few hundred spot lights above the layout, and can control each one, I can then do things like change the colour (sunset/sunrise?), move the brightness along the layout (cloud going over), vary the brightness (time of day), and so on. I'm not sure it's something that the average person who's not comfortable with microcontrollers, writing software, and the odd custom PCB could do, but it's certainly keeping me amused. 

 

J

[David C]

Julia:

 

I'll bet you're an S4 (or possibly S7) modeller. I think I'm going to stick with 00 AND I'm going to model turnips ready to harvest even though I've decided to set my layout in July which is ONE WHOLE month earlier than they should even be planted according to some of the info other members have kindly posted above. Counting rivets on locomotives is a whole lot easier than this agricultural stuff ....

 

Thanks for the posts and the humour!

 

David C

 

 

 

[Julia]

5 hours ago, David C said:

Julia:

 

I'll bet you're an S4 (or possibly S7) modeller. I think I'm going to stick with 00 AND I'm going to model turnips ready to harvest even though I've decided to set my layout in July which is ONE WHOLE month earlier than they should even be planted according to some of the info other members have kindly posted above. Counting rivets on locomotives is a whole lot easier than this agricultural stuff ....

 

Thanks for the posts and the humour!

 

 

Actually I model in H0e... 

 

Turnips can be planted (depending on cultivar), from February until July, with some varieties ready to harvest in 50-60 days. 

 

Your bigger issue is the size of a turnip can be 50-200mm in diameter, tho they tend closer to the 50 than the 200. In H0, that's 0.6-2.3mm in diameter. That's gonna be hard to model... 

 

Oh, and remember they are a brassica, so should be grow next to the cabbages...

 

J

[The White Rabbit]

On the subject of companion planting, onions are useful to plant next to carrots, it helps keep some of the pests away. OK, perhaps advice more for 1:1 scale ... 

 

Turnips in 1:76, I've heard of people using painted rice or seeds for the root but for an easier way to attach DIY foliage, how about small necklace beads with a hole already drilled through for an easy anchor point? To cheat a bit, Busch do a kit for potato plants, I'd spot the differences but for most non-growers, you might not raise many eyebrows.