Its a dangerous world trackside

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, ess1uk said:

Very saddened by this.

i still feel safer walking along the cess than the odd time I’ve had to wait for recovery beside my car on a dual carriageway .

thankfully I very rarely have to either cross lines or work in the 4 foot

 

You're very lucky to be able to find a cess to walk in on a large part of the network!

[96701]

On 04/07/2019 at 20:29, phil-b259 said:

 

What does SSOWPs stand for then

Safe System Of Work Planning System used by NR Maintenance.

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

You're very lucky to be able to find a cess to walk in on a large part of the network!

When I was training with the signal lineman at Saltley in the 1960s we used to ride our bikes down the cess to Bromford Bridge. 

[phil-b259]

13 hours ago, 96701 said:

Safe System Of Work Planning System used by NR Maintenance.

 

I know that - as does everyone else on NR.

 

 

I was merely wondering what TheSignalEngineer's take on it was - Bering in mind that his explanation of Rimini was most definitely not the official one.

 

 

(note - edited to cite the right RMweb contributor)

Edited July 7, 2019 by phil-b259

[Phlogiston]

On 06/07/2019 at 14:32, The Stationmaster said:

You're very lucky to be able to find a cess to walk in on a large part of the network!

What also surprises is the amount of old track materials one can sometimes see from the train, never taken away after engineering occupations and in some cases blocking what might otherwise be a safe walking route next to the line.

 

[Oldddudders]

29 minutes ago, Phlogiston said:

What also surprises is the amount of old track materials one can sometimes see from the train, never taken away after engineering occupations and in some cases blocking what might otherwise be a safe walking route next to the line.

 

BR wasn't great at this, but there were periodic purges. No doubt these days the traditional complexity of booking possessions and getting staff and plant on site to tidy up is further lumbered with the safe working methods we have been discussing. No-one doubts the priorities of staff safety are right, but slots and resources are much harder to find than was the case years ago. 

[brianusa]

3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

BR wasn't great at this, but there were periodic purges. No doubt these days the traditional complexity of booking possessions and getting staff and plant on site to tidy up is further lumbered with the safe working methods we have been discussing. No-one doubts the priorities of staff safety are right, but slots and resources are much harder to find than was the case years ago. 

 Sounds reasonable.  Take any cab ride video and while its mainly bits of rail between the running lines, all sorts of detritus can be seen.

     Brian. 

[kevinlms]

6 hours ago, Phlogiston said:

What also surprises is the amount of old track materials one can sometimes see from the train, never taken away after engineering occupations and in some cases blocking what might otherwise be a safe walking route next to the line.

 

Here in Oz, a friend of mine took some scrap steel to the a scrap metal dealers and happened to mention that he travels by suburban train a fair bit. That led to a discussion about all the spare rail alongside the tracks. They asked if he could arrange with Vic Track to collect it.

He asked me how he would go about it. I told him forget it, by the time he got safety accreditation and suitable time slots to pick it up, it wouldn't be worth the effort.

 

Mind you the scrap dealers are Indian, so I suppose in their homeland, they would just turn up, with a group of people and take it, under the cover of darkness!

[ess1uk]

On 06/07/2019 at 14:32, The Stationmaster said:

You're very lucky to be able to find a cess to walk in on a large part of the network!

Like this.

right at the bottom of the access steps 

[jim.snowdon]

Yes, and by the time anyone comes to think of picking them up (if ever), the bags will probably have deteriorated to the point where they will split if picked up.

 

Jim

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Phlogiston said:

What also surprises is the amount of old track materials one can sometimes see from the train, never taken away after engineering occupations and in some cases blocking what might otherwise be a safe walking route next to the line.

 

And on the GWML you can add to that 'leftover' electrification materials - mainly the foundation pile tubes/sections thereof which can be seen at various spots  although in some cases they are rapidly being subsumed by the undergrowth.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 06/07/2019 at 23:16, phil-b259 said:

 

I know that - as does everyone else on NR.

 

 

I was merely wondering what TheSignalEngineer's take on it was - Bering in mind that his explanation of Rimini was most definitely not the official one.

 

 

(note - edited to cite the right RMweb contributor)

Fortunately I was out of that sort of job by the time RIMINI arrived. First time I heard that definition was actually from NRs Ops/Engineering Liaison man on a project where I was producing a report for a contractor when it had just been introduced.

Although I'm not familiar with the SSOWP I expect it will contain many of the things I had on the site safety cards I had produced for my projects from 1990 onwards. They included access details, line directions and speeds, areas where additional protection was required such as extra lookout, protective speed restriction or possession, emergency contacts, etc.

[TheSignalEngineer]

19 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

BR wasn't great at this, but there were periodic purges. No doubt these days the traditional complexity of booking possessions and getting staff and plant on site to tidy up is further lumbered with the safe working methods we have been discussing. No-one doubts the priorities of staff safety are right, but slots and resources are much harder to find than was the case years ago. 

We picked up over 40 wagons of scrap between Primrose Hill and Watford Junction after the DC Lines job. I wonder if that signal post on the northern bit is still there. I never managed to get a possession and isolations of the DC and Down Fast to match up so I could take it out.

[brianusa]

Try explaining that to the public.  All they see is the s/crap lineside and wonder why it always seems to be there!

       Brian.

[big jim]

9 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Yes, and by the time anyone comes to think of picking them up (if ever), the bags will probably have deteriorated to the point where they will split if picked up.

 

Jim

 

When I learned Holyhead nearly 20 years ago there were 3 blue bulk bags trackside full of ballast that were used as a braking point for bodorgan station on the up, they are still there now, faded and deteriorated somewhat but still used as the braking point!

 

 

[Southernman46]

Having looked after Clapham & Woking PW section back in the day - scrap is easily managed if you are prepared to put in the effort and work and change the culture ......................... the difficult part was ensuring that visiting projects do the same

 

The current state of the section from Worting Jn right up to Berrylands and from Clapham Junction into Waterloo makes me want to weep .................................................. track, vegetation and scrap

[martin_wynne]

RAIB report today on a previous track worker fatality. It makes uncomfortable reading. I didn't know that any p.w. staff were on zero-hours contracts:

 

 https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-07-2019-fatal-accident-at-stoats-nest-junction-purley

 

Martin.

[Zomboid]

I don't think NR does zero hours contracts for it's own staff, but the third party suppliers of various services certainly could. In my experience it's usual for a COSS (if they still exist), Lookout etc to come from a third party supplier. I guess the work for such companies is quite variable and the business sense of zero hours contracts for them is clear.

[The Stationmaster]

14 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

RAIB report today on a previous track worker fatality. It makes uncomfortable reading. I didn't know that any p.w. staff were on zero-hours contracts:

 

 https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-07-2019-fatal-accident-at-stoats-nest-junction-purley

 

Martin.

Even more worrying than that in my view with a sub-contracted man working in an area of which he seemed to have very limited knowledge and where he received no briefing at the site.  I would also wonder about the level of assessment NR had applied to the contractor before accepting them for online work as the contractor's supervision of working hours in a safety critical person would seem to be lacking to say the very least.

 

Alas an incident that was regrettably bound to happen sometime or other notwithstanding all the extra paperwork and procedures now in use for possessions and staff working on or about the line - very worrying.

[jim.snowdon]

As far as I have been able to see, the industry is area is rife with multiple layers of subcontracting, right down to individuals who, having the qualifications, set themselves up as one man companies, able and prepared to turn out for any job/contractor at very short notice on the basis of a telephone call. That they exist at all is down to the nature of the privatised railway, with as much as possible, especially projects, put out to contract for the lowest price and a general desire on the part ofthe contractors to employ as few full time staff as possible.

 

Jim

[iands]

The original concept for Railtrack in the run-up to privatisation envisaged a total of only 35-40 directly employed staff - essentially "contract managers" to oversee the delivery (or otherwise) of all works, maintenance, renewals, etc. Thankfully, that particular concept never materialised but the one involving lots of contractors/sub-contractors did - and still does. 

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Even more worrying than that in my view with a sub-contracted man working in an area of which he seemed to have very limited knowledge and where he received no briefing at the site.  I would also wonder about the level of assessment NR had applied to the contractor before accepting them for online work as the contractor's supervision of working hours in a safety critical person would seem to be lacking to say the very least.

 

Alas an incident that was regrettably bound to happen sometime or other notwithstanding all the extra paperwork and procedures now in use for possessions and staff working on or about the line - very worrying.

 

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

As far as I have been able to see, the industry is area is rife with multiple layers of subcontracting, right down to individuals who, having the qualifications, set themselves up as one man companies, able and prepared to turn out for any job/contractor at very short notice on the basis of a telephone call. That they exist at all is down to the nature of the privatised railway, with as much as possible, especially projects, put out to contract for the lowest price and a general desire on the part ofthe contractors to employ as few full time staff as possible.

 

Jim

It doesn't matter what restrictions are brought in to promote track safety; nothing will really change while the work always goes to the lowest bidder. In the ensuing race to the bottom, the cost/profit motive will inevitably subvert them. Creating and running an enforcement regime to ensure the safety of the "outside"  workforce properly would probably cost NR more than they save by contracting the work out. 

 

Anything beyond work covered by the "regular" PW and S&T companies had become a semi-regulated jungle of multi-layered contractors, sub-contractors and one-man-bands posing as sub-contactors long before I retired in 2012, and I'd be astounded if much has moved in a safety-positive direction since.

 

There's often a big difference between being able to present reams of paper to  "prove" a job has been carried out safely and that being truly the case.

 

John

Edited July 11, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[kevinlms]

Hopefully not quite like this!

 

[jim.snowdon]

Indeed not, but that sort of training material, even though the incidents are staged, probably got the point over better than today's training presentations do. Apart from the strap men who get it wrong, how many people have, for example, seen what at 750V DC short circuit looks like, or have ever seen a short circuiting bar used on the real railway?

 

Jim

[Zomboid]

I've seen actual short circuit faults in the wild on both AC and DC systems (and controlled tests of both kinds using spring loaded actuators, and I've been in the substations during short circuit testing). They're all quite exciting if you're into that kind of thing. The energy dissipated is quite a surprise the first time you see it.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Zomboid
srellig miztook