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Font that approximates typeface used on GWR / LNWR signs and software to tweak it


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  • RMweb Gold

Suggestions please for a font that approximates the typeface used on GWR / LNWR cast lineside signs / notices.

Such as this http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/hadlow_road/index12.shtml

 

Despite some searching on my computer and other fonts online I have not found any thing very close.

 

Thanks 

(secondary question, in 1947 would it be white letters on black, or black letters on white?) 

Edited by flockandroll
Title edited to include discussion of software
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  • RMweb Gold

I did some NER ones and decided that at the size needed good old Arial would suit and I think it looks ok, spent quite a bit of time getting the spacings right.

 

Third photo down. 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106646-the-depots-rosedale-east/&do=findComment&comment=3452421

 

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  • RMweb Gold

Quite tricky that one. It's not just about the font itself but having it in varying widths so you need to stretch/shrink it.

 

So you need a good graphics software such as Adobe Illustrator which allows one to do that sort of thing.

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  • RMweb Gold

As JP says, it's difficult to find an exact match. There might be one out there but it would take a bit of searching.

 

The closest I have found so far (and it's still not right) is "Old Sans Black":

542873415_Jointnotice.png.771c2d2c76919b348bd9b4d7c77b5e31.pnghadlow_kb_008.jpg

 

That has various typographical tweaks applied to it: Aspect ratio changed, tracking applied, small caps applied, line spacing tweaked, some extra fattening to account for the casting.

 

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I think you will have to work a bit harder than simply finding a font. That  Old Sans Black    looks like a good starting point.

Maybe the Big letters need to be slightly larger in relation to the small  (though still capitalised)  letters but it looks like the height to width ratio is a bit off, not tall enough.  To cure this use something like Faststone image viewer and write your sign, then resize it altering the height but not the width.   Sometimes the spacing needs fiddling by changing the size of the font for the space but the more effort in generally the better the result.

I spent ages making BR (WR) front number plates and got some reasonable ones then forgot how I did them so maybe write  down what you did as you do it.

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31 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

I think you will have to work a bit harder than simply finding a font. That  Old Sans Black    looks like a good starting point.

Maybe the Big letters need to be slightly larger in relation to the small  (though still capitalised)  letters but it looks like the height to width ratio is a bit off, not tall enough.  To cure this use something like Faststone image viewer and write your sign, then resize it altering the height but not the width.   Sometimes the spacing needs fiddling by changing the size of the font for the space but the more effort in generally the better the result.

I spent ages making BR (WR) front number plates and got some reasonable ones then forgot how I did them so maybe write  down what you did as you do it.

HI David,

All of those things can be changed at will in a drawing program without losing any quality. No need to use an image viewer.

Furthermore, you can go back at any time and examine all the settings that are applied to the text so you don't have to remember what you did.

 

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks for all replies so far. 

I feared it would be more involved than just finding a font that was an approximate match. Years ago I used to know a very little about GIMP, but I have forgotten it all. Is that the kind of program that would be needed? 

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57 minutes ago, flockandroll said:

Thanks for all replies so far. 

I feared it would be more involved than just finding a font that was an approximate match. Years ago I used to know a very little about GIMP, but I have forgotten it all. Is that the kind of program that would be needed? 

Gimp is a painting program and while I'm sure you can do a lot of good text editing in it there will come a point when the text is committed to pixels and you can't edit it any more.

 

You need a drawing program. Something like:

  • Adobe Illustrator (expensive)
  • Affinity Designer (very good and not too expensive)
  • Xara Designer (good but getting a bit old now)
  • InkScape (free but clunky like Gimp)
  • Corel Draw (as old as the hills)

 

Edited by Harlequin
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30 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

I believe that the GWR used  Egyptian Serif

 

"Swindon Egyptian" was a version of Clarendon created in the Swindon drawing office for use in their cast loco name and number plates. It's a different style than the sans-serif font used in the notice that flockandroll is asking about.

 

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15 hours ago, Harlequin said:

HI David,

All of those things can be changed at will in a drawing program without losing any quality. No need to use an image viewer.

Furthermore, you can go back at any time and examine all the settings that are applied to the text so you don't have to remember what you did.

 

I think you have misunderstood.   Faststone image viewer is quite a versatile program and is free.  It has quite a range of fonts and you can write text into it as easily as in to MS word and much larger as it does sizes from about 6 to 200 pt so the quality is excellent.  The feature I value is the ability to stretch image and so the letters vertically using the resize on only one axis as historic fonts do seem to be much taller and thinner than the present type.  The words Amazon and Pay are not concepts I am comfortable with.

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16 hours ago, Vistisen said:

I believe that the GWR used  Egyptian Serif

 

That seems to have become a bit of an internet myth. Egyptian Serif is a typeface style, alternately called Slab Serif, it is not an actual typeface. It also depends on which typeface people are talking about.

 

On locos, "Great Western" was a slab serif typeface e.g.

image.png.0fc3a88c7bdb905245e557fb540e9a9a.png

 

However on wagons the "G W" was a sans serif typeface.

image.png.fd2bdf9cf4cd0a0dd4bc842e6216da11.png

 

Also the sign shown above in Harlequin's post is a sans serif typeface.

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On 04/07/2019 at 01:11, Graham1960 said:

No he doesn't. What he needs is a Desk Top Publishing Software such as Serif Page Plus, which can be purchased very cheaply on Amazon.

With that you can draw a box the size you want, then enter the text, which can be scaled to fit the available space. The Software will take every font on your system and add it's own. Once done you can print it to paper, clear plastic sheet or waterslide transfer paper.

With that you can do carriage and wagon lettering and anything else.

 Despite being Described as "old as the hills" by David, CorelDraw is also a very useful tool for handling fonts. The older versions are also available cheaply on Ebay. I now have CD17 but used CD9 and CD12 in the past for etch artwork design (including LNWR numberplates with their distinctive numbers) and frankly their is little to choose between them for our needs.

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6 hours ago, Graham1960 said:

I doubt that CorelDraw can produce things let these Pullman labels and then export them as a PDF file, which is what Page Plus can do. Page Plus is more like Adobe Pagemaker used to make books, only vastly cheaper.

Tri-ang Pullman Linings 2.pdf 136.58 kB · 3 downloads

Don’t doubt it. Not a problem for any decent drawing program.

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10 hours ago, Graham1960 said:

I doubt that CorelDraw can produce things let these Pullman labels and then export them as a PDF file, which is what Page Plus can do. Page Plus is more like Adobe Pagemaker used to make books, only vastly cheaper.

Tri-ang Pullman Linings 2.pdf 136.58 kB · 5 downloads

CorelDraw has a "export to pdf function", so is easily capable of producing pdf format files, something I do with it regularly. Any vector based drawing programme should be able to. 

 

The excellent Pullman "labels" you have produced could readily be produced with CorelDraw.

 

Having used Adobe Pagemaker for a number of years (now updated to Adobe InDesign), I would still prefer CorelDraw for CAD design, while using the Adobe program for DTP.

Edited by Jol Wilkinson
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On 03/07/2019 at 14:57, Harlequin said:

As JP says, it's difficult to find an exact match. There might be one out there but it would take a bit of searching.

 

The closest I have found so far (and it's still not right) is "Old Sans Black":

542873415_Jointnotice.png.771c2d2c76919b348bd9b4d7c77b5e31.pnghadlow_kb_008.jpg

 

That has various typographical tweaks applied to it: Aspect ratio changed, tracking applied, small caps applied, line spacing tweaked, some extra fattening to account for the casting.

 

 

Notice how the cast iron lettering (and also signwriting generally, such as on PO wagons) has the verticals and horizontals of equal width, unlike almost all typeface block letter designs, which have wider verticals than horizontals.

 

I've used CorelDraw to tweak a starting-point font closer to the desired shape:

 

1590635915_numberplatestest.jpg.258182f3094cf268a2a85acc48127f30.jpg

 

... though when reduced to 4 mm/ft scale, it's purely for my own satisfaction!

 

 

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On 07/07/2019 at 22:16, Graham1960 said:

I doubt that CorelDraw can produce things let these Pullman labels and then export them as a PDF file, which is what Page Plus can do. Page Plus is more like Adobe Pagemaker used to make books, only vastly cheaper.

Tri-ang Pullman Linings 2.pdf 136.58 kB · 6 downloads

 

It would be a doddle to create those in CorelDraw. You can import bitmaps for the crests, lines and text are it's bread and butter and it exports in multiple formats including PDF.

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  • RMweb Premium

I'm sure it was somewhere on RMWeb that I saw a link to a website that identifies fonts if you drag and drop a reasonably clear picture onto the upload tool on the site. I can't remember what thread the link was in now though.  Not very helpful, sorry!

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On 04/07/2019 at 01:11, Graham1960 said:

No he doesn't. What he needs is a Desk Top Publishing Software such as Serif Page Plus, which can be purchased very cheaply on Amazon.

With that you can draw a box the size you want, then enter the text, which can be scaled to fit the available space. The Software will take every font on your system and add it's own. Once done you can print it to paper, clear plastic sheet or waterslide transfer paper.

With that you can do carriage and wagon lettering and anything else.

 

Useful website for Page Plus info / tutorials etc. here:-

 

http://www.softerviews.org/PagePlus.html

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks to all contributors. I have downloaded several fonts and used Swiss 721 black heavy. If I want to take it further I will probably opt to try Coral Draw. 

As for pretty much everything that wasn't cast from metal, as the recent thread that originally was about coach roof destination boards showed, nearly everything was hand painted by signwritters to fit the available space: there are some excellent pictures of signwritters at work in that thread. 

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