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Hattons / Bachmann New Stock / cancelled pre-orders (07 Aug)

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2 minutes ago, PMP said:

 

It is of course crucial to ignore retailers like Kernow when making such ‘fact free’ claims...

 

How was I ignoring retailers like Kernow?

 

I specifically mentioned that it was in part a warning to other retailers who deal or want to deal directly with China - like Kernow does - and while not said directly my implication was that the warning was not to take on models that Bachmann currently has in their catalog (like the Class 66), with perhaps a more subtle warning about models in general. 

 

While I wouldn't directly imply a relationship as there are lots of reasons, not least of which stuff in development might not yet be ready to go public, but note that Kernow don't appear to have done any more direct with China stuff since the Hattons/Bachmann dispute became known (the China Clay wagons were announced just over a year ago, but were obviously well along in development by that point).

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11 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

How was I ignoring retailers like Kernow?

 

I specifically mentioned that it was in part a warning to other retailers who deal or want to deal directly with China - like Kernow does - and while not said directly my implication was that the warning was not to take on models that Bachmann currently has in their catalog (like the Class 66), with perhaps a more subtle warning about models in general. 

 

While I wouldn't directly imply a relationship as there are lots of reasons, not least of which stuff in development might not yet be ready to go public, but note that Kernow don't appear to have done any more direct with China stuff since the Hattons/Bachmann dispute became known (the China Clay wagons were announced just over a year ago, but were obviously well along in development by that point).

 

I think you are somewhat wide of the mark.

 

There is nothing to stop anyone from producing models directly with China or any other party. and to do so would not be in breach of Bachmann's terms.

 

The terms are available for anyone to read if you look carefully enough.

There is a specific clause that relates to supply of product to a competing manufacturer.

 

I doubt its coincidental that Bachmann supply dried up at around the same time as the Hattons Wholesale service launched.

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1 hour ago, mdvle said:

 

The Hattons / Bachmann issue was created (it appears) because Bachmann didn't like Hattons creating a new Class 66 model, and in an apparent attempt to reduce consumer choice Bachmann has/is attempting to not just make Hattons reconsider making models but indirectly any other retailers from directly working with China to make models.

 

 

 

The issue Bachmann have quite clearly identified the adverse efect (and have for a long time mitigated against it in their retailer T&Cs) is direct competition with duplicate models.

 

Providing  the retailer doesn't go and make a copy of something already in the Bachmann range / announced by Bachmann in their yearly 'new models announcement then the retailer can do what they like.

 

There is NOTHING wrong in this - outside the world of big retail (i.e. supermarkets who frequently get paid extra to stock / promote certain brands and are quite happy selling lots of stuff at a loss if it means more profit elsewhere) its quite normal to not stock competitor products - for example most franchised garages will only sell one particular manufacturers new car range.

 

Had Hattons decided to make a 'top of the range class 91, a class 58, etc then  there would be no conflict with Bachmann. Instead they went ahead with a 66 knowing full well that it would bring them into conflict wit Bachmann.

 

It maybe that Hattons assumed that Bachmann would either chose to not enforce their trade T&Cs - or that they could be persuaded to amend / suspend them - if so it seems like they severely under estimated Bachmanns resolve.

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

How was I ignoring retailers like Kernow?

 

I specifically mentioned that it was in part a warning to other retailers who deal or want to deal directly with China - like Kernow does - and while not said directly my implication was that the warning was not to take on models that Bachmann currently has in their catalog (like the Class 66), with perhaps a more subtle warning about models in general. 

 

Thank you for confirming the speculative nature of your post.

 

Your theory falls apart rapidly when you look at Rails and their L/E Accurascale Deltics. A direct competitor on prototype model that a major retailer has partnered with. Therefore Rails must be at risk too despite that retailer is doing their own L/E model with Bachmann and Others such as Dapol and Heljan.

 

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So if I am correct, Bachmann do not want anyone to produce anything that competes with what is in their current catalogue. If they do then Bachmann throw their toys out of the pram. Given that Bachmanns new output is a trickle then little wonder others produce models that may compete with Bachmann? When the roost was ruled by Bachmann and Hornby there were frequently opposing models of the same locos. Given that Hattons is one of ( if not the) biggest UK retailers, it can only be to Bachmanns detriment in the long term.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, PMP said:

Thank you for confirming the speculative nature of your post.

 

Your theory falls apart rapidly when you look at Rails and their L/E Accurascale Deltics. A direct competitor on prototype model that a major retailer has partnered with. Therefore Rails must be at risk too despite that retailer is doing their own L/E model with Bachmann and Others such as Dapol and Heljan.

 

I'm not sure exactly how the Rails/Accurascale Deltic fits the pattern. If it's a joint project (in the way the Terriers are with Dapol) then it should presumably be regarded in the same light as the Hatton's 66.

 

However, if it's just a case of Accurascale supplying certain livery/name variations exclusively to Rails, then that's just dealing with another manufacturer on the same basis they deal with Bachmann. i.e. the supply of exclusive versions of non-exclusive models.

 

Either way, I suspect there may be a bit more to the Hatton's / Bachmann falling out than just the 66 issue.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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Big difference is that Rails are not going directly to China. They are commissioning models from another manufacturer. It is Accruascale that are the manufacturers. Kernow are going directly to China but are not making models which compete with anything in Bachmann's current range. 

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30 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The issue Bachmann have quite clearly identified the adverse efect (and have for a long time mitigated against it in their retailer T&Cs) is direct competition with duplicate models.

 

Providing  the retailer doesn't go and make a copy of something already in the Bachmann range / announced by Bachmann in their yearly 'new models announcement then the retailer can do what they like.

 

There is NOTHING wrong in this - outside the world of big retail (i.e. supermarkets who frequently get paid extra to stock / promote certain brands and are quite happy selling lots of stuff at a loss if it means more profit elsewhere) its quite normal to not stock competitor products - for example most franchised garages will only sell one particular manufacturers new car range.

 

 

 

That is not quite the same though is it? 

 

The supermarkets getting paid to promote certain products, and garages only selling one make of car, are not actually manufacturing them in direct competition. 

 

What you appear to be saying is that if I won Euromillions and decided to plough my winnings into bringing out my own branded RTR 00 gauge 94XX pannier tank, I would not be allowed to do so because Bachmann have one under development? And you say there is nothing wrong with that?

 

Is that even legal?  What would they do? Send the heavies round and smash up my tooling? 

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Good call for Hattons to give notification to those with outstanding pre-orders a bit of clarity and peace of mind. Some will have had orders totalling quite considerable sums. Its a pity they couldn't have said something sooner to quell the rumours that have been spinning around for some time, possibly damaging in some instances. Some others will have been for models long since delivered elsewhere, which was frustrating waiting for information! However, given the turnover and contracts involved I'd bet they've said what they have when they did because it was the earliest possible opportunity to actually do so. Thank you Hattons.

 

The way I look at it, Hattons have saved me a considerable amount by cancelling pre-orders I had. The impending Ian Allen (B'ham) closure has fed me with plenty of dirt cheap alternatives lately in any case, and I got my fill of a dozen Portholes for a darn sight less than anywhere else which killed off one large pre-order that had been falling behind and easily saved me around a ton in the process without giving up a single model on that pre-order list. Heads up, the Corridor Thirds are all gone (Fairly sure I took the last ones) but there were a few BTK and CK left and the usual profusion of various Firsts. There were also MR 1Fs at £55, Super Ds for £65, DCC Sound Jinties at £130 the other week. Those are all gone now though, I wonder where a few went... To be honest, given several price hikes totalling £350 up on the original listings for other pre orders I had, I was considering revising my pre-orders anyway. OK, so Hattons cancelled them for me which was a push before I jumped, but this convergence of Hattons/Bachmann officially parting and IA closing has done me (and a few others) very well indeed. I certainly have little incentive to replace pre-orders elsewhere at present, and certainly at nowhere near the original volume. A token model here or there perhaps...Maybe.

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8 minutes ago, 7013 said:

So if I am correct, Bachmann do not want anyone to produce anything that competes with what is in their current catalogue. If they do then Bachmann throw their toys out of the pram. Given that Bachmanns new output is a trickle then little wonder others produce models that may compete with Bachmann? When the roost was ruled by Bachmann and Hornby there were frequently opposing models of the same locos. Given that Hattons is one of ( if not the) biggest UK retailers, it can only be to Bachmanns detriment in the long term.

The issue is not just what Hatton's have done, but that in doing so, they knowingly broke a clause of their supply contract with Bachmann. Without having what will inevitably be confidential inside information, it seems reasonable to assume that the first Bachmann knew of it was when Hatton's went public on their 66s and that no prior renegotiation of terms was attempted.

 

Bachmann are thus perfectly entitled to end the contract if (as seems to be the case) a fundamental aspect of it has been breached by the other party.   

 

That said, I tend to agree that it may well be an action that comes back to bite Bachmann on the posterior in the fullness of time.

 

John

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1 minute ago, jonny777 said:

 

That is not quite the same though is it? 

 

The supermarkets getting paid to promote certain products, and garages only selling one make of car, are not actually manufacturing them in direct competition. 

 

What you appear to be saying is that if I won Euromillions and decided to plough my winnings into bringing out my own branded RTR 00 gauge 94XX pannier tank, I would not be allowed to do so because Bachmann have one under development? And you say there is nothing wrong with that?

 

Is that even legal?  What would they do? Send the heavies round and smash up my tooling? 

 

Unless the 'you' in question are already an authorised Bachmann stockist then you can do what you want with your EuroMillions win.

 

The point is that over the past decades the dominance of big cooperate retail entities has given rise to the belief that the consumer is always king and retailers / manufacturers must bend over backwards and give consumers everything hey want at all times -  Well sorry to break it to you they are NOT!

 

Manufacturers can quite legitimately refuse to supply retailers who also stock 'own brand' competing products be it model railways, cars or baked beans.

 

So if you run a model shop and wish to produce a RTR 94xx then go ahead make one - but don't come crying when Bachmann refuse to supply you with any more stock and remove you from being an authorised retailer of Bachmann products. If you have done your sums right then you will be very well off - but if your 94xx doesn't sell well enough to counteract the inability to sell Bachmann products then the investment in a 94xx is rather silly.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

Seriously - did none of you read my post...

 

 

Yes, but I am thick. Sorry about that. 

Edited by jonny777
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1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The issue Bachmann have quite clearly identified the adverse efect (and have for a long time mitigated against it in their retailer T&Cs) is direct competition with duplicate models.

 

Providing  the retailer doesn't go and make a copy of something already in the Bachmann range / announced by Bachmann in their yearly 'new models announcement then the retailer can do what they like.

 

There is NOTHING wrong in this - outside the world of big retail (i.e. supermarkets who frequently get paid extra to stock / promote certain brands and are quite happy selling lots of stuff at a loss if it means more profit elsewhere) its quite normal to not stock competitor products - for example most franchised garages will only sell one particular manufacturers new car range.

 

Had Hattons decided to make a 'top of the range class 91, a class 58, etc then  there would be no conflict with Bachmann. Instead they went ahead with a 66 knowing full well that it would bring them into conflict wit Bachmann.

 

It maybe that Hattons assumed that Bachmann would either chose to not enforce their trade T&Cs - or that they could be persuaded to amend / suspend them - if so it seems like they severely under estimated Bachmanns resolve.

 

Not quite complete bollix, but see below, which is spot on, and from an informed source:

 

1 hour ago, Trains4U said:

 

I think you are somewhat wide of the mark.

 

There is nothing to stop anyone from producing models directly with China or any other party. and to do so would not be in breach of Bachmann's terms.

 

The terms are available for anyone to read if you look carefully enough.

There is a specific clause that relates to supply of product to a competing manufacturer.

 

I doubt its coincidental that Bachmann supply dried up at around the same time as the Hattons Wholesale service launched.

 

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16 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

So if you run a model shop and wish to produce a RTR 94xx then go ahead make one - but don't come crying when Bachmann refuse to supply you with any more stock and remove you from being an authorised retailer of Bachmann products. If you have done your sums right then you will be very well off - but if your 94xx doesn't sell well enough to counteract the inability to sell Bachmann products then the investment in a 94xx is rather silly.

 

 

My hypothetical question never mentioned running a model shop, so I am not sure why you have introduced that variable.  Is it me who is being silly? Why would I come crying? You sound like my late mother ("If you fall off that wall and break your leg, don't come running to me crying"). 

 

My company would be selling 94XX models, nothing else. I wouldn't be in the industry to make myself well off. My lottery win would have done that already. It would simply be a vanity project, but I'm sure Bachmann couldn't prevent me from bringing out a 94XX if I wished to.

 

If Bachmann wanted to undercut my prices and put me out of business that is their choice. It is how business works. 

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Bachmann are just bad losers, good luck to Hattons with their 66.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, NINJA said:

Bachmann are just bad losers, good luck to Hattons with their 66.

 

 

So Bachmann should have simply shrugged their shoulders when one of the shops they supply broke the Terms of the contract then?

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

My hypothetical question never mentioned running a model shop, so I am not sure why you have introduced that variable. 

You need a model shop retail outlet to have a Bachmann account to make your example relevant. If you’re not retailing Bachmann products none of this would affect you with your product.

 

Bachmann aren’t stopping you making whatever you want. If however you are selling Bachmann products with an official account and want to redistribute them, clearly you need to have discussions with Bachmann.

Edited by PMP
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16 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

 

My hypothetical question never mentioned running a model shop, so I am not sure why you have introduced that variable.  Is it me who is being silly? Why would I come crying? You sound like my late mother ("If you fall off that wall and break your leg, don't come running to me crying"). 

 

My company would be selling 94XX models, nothing else. I wouldn't be in the industry to make myself well off. My lottery win would have done that already. It would simply be a vanity project, but I'm sure Bachmann couldn't prevent me from bringing out a 94XX if I wished to.

 

If Bachmann wanted to undercut my prices and put me out of business that is their choice. It is how business works. 

 

Because this whole thread is about a model shop and its relationship with one particular manufacturer!

 

Comments about individuals and their actions are thus irrelevant with respect to commissioning models themselves

 

Bachmann cannot (nor should they be allowed to) stop anyone else from bringing out a model of something Bachmann already produce. However Bachmann are perfectly within their rights to say 'right we will stop supplying you with our products'

 

Technically there is nothing to stop Hornby putting an identical clause in their trader T&Cs - and thus refusing to supply rails on the basis that rails are producing a Terrier in direct competition. The fact that Hornby haven't gone down Bachmanns route with their trade T&Cs indicates that not all manufactures see direct competition as something to be discouraged - but thats not to say protecting your product via protective clauses isn't the right way to go.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 ... if you cannot buy it from Hattons I am sure another retailer will be happy to sell you it.

 

Possibly at a lower price, too :)

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1 minute ago, spikey said:

 

Possibly at a lower price, too :)

If Hatton's aren't selling them, how will you know.....:jester:

 

John

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It's been nearly 12 months since supply of Bachmann stock to Hattons dried up:

  1. The modelling world has not ended - people have found alternative sources of new Bachmann stock at competitive prices (without resorting to grey markets or under the counter shenanigans)
  2. Hattons are still trading and still moving forward with O, OO and N gauge own commissions (despite what one lag on Facebook thinks is happening).
  3. Both Bachmann and Hattons are moving on quietly

In the same period Britain still hasn't managed to negotiate its way through a referendum decision which has way more potential impact on our pockets to buy new models if it all goes wrong in October.

 

Ladbrokes are offering odds of 10-1 that this thread will exceed the final DJM thread in pages by the end of August.

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This is a good thread. I enjoy looking at a good discussion.

Normally I would stick my oar in and spoil things, but this time I won't as this is splendid.

Keep it going chaps.

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24 minutes ago, NINJA said:

Bachmann are just bad losers, good luck to Hattons with their 66.

 

 

 

We will see.....

 

Yes Hattons will get lots of sales from the 66 models, but at the end of the day its still only one loco type. True there is apparently lots of demand for a high spec 66 and it can be done in lots of liveries (subject to approval being obtained by the owners of the real loco) but how sustainable is said demand?

 

Potentally, as time goes on the inability to stock Bachmann wagons, coaches or other motive power may come back to haunt Hattons.

 

If you were a steam era modeller then you have no interest in the 66 then your money will have to go elsewhere and the loss of these sales is not trivial - even with a business as large as Hattons.

 

As with all things it depends on whether the accountants have got their sums right - and we are not going to know that for a good few years yet.

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8 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

This is a good thread. I enjoy looking at a good discussion.

Normally I would stick my oar in and spoil things, but this time I won't as this is splendid.

Keep it going chaps.

 

I'm particularly enjoying posts from those who obviously know the square root of FA about the retail sector (except as customers) letting us all know how many hypothetical Bachmann angels one can fit on an imaginary Hattons pin.

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