Looking for Hayling Signals Prototype Advice

[Echini]

Hayling Island Signals.

Currently, on my 00 gauge layout of South Hayling Station, the two Home Starter signals for the main platform and the bay platform are standard Hornby semaphore signals and I am planning to remake them to match the original signals and to make them work, including DCC Concepts working rodding.

South Hayling was always said to be unusual in that the main Platform Starter was a “normal” Southern Region upper quadrant signal while the bay Platform Starter was lower quadrant probably, it was said, a signal that came second hand from another region. A lot of “hand-me-down” equipment ended up on the Hayling Branch line.

From this photograph, it is clear that originally both Platform Starter signals were lower quadrant. Unfortunately the photograph is undated but, it appears that the Terrier is sporting an early BR logo, which should put it into the 1948 to 1956 time period.

More recent photographs show that the No.1 Home Starter was replaced with a very short SR upper quadrant version made from re-used rail. Where an engine appears in any of the photographs showing the newer upper quadrant signal, those engines have the later BR crest.

In addition, the bay Platform Starter is unusual in that the ladder is on the facing side of the signal with a vertical hand rail that runs in front of the signal arm. These are two of the working signals that I am building.

However, I also found a copy of the 1957 signal plan for South Hayling Station:

I wanted to understand the way that the signals worked and interlocked, so that I can recreate the signals as close as possible to the original. However, I am definitely no expert at signals and I am hoping that someone who does understand the intricacies of signalling can help sort out a few things that I don’t understand.

My understanding (I hope) is that in order to pull “On” the lever in the “Work” column, one must first pull “On” anything in the “Release” column, then ensure that anything in the “Locking” column is “Off” (pushed back) before pulling the “Work” lever “On”.

It appears that the Facing Point Locks (Nos. 1 and 4) are locked when “Off” and unlocked when “On”, everything else is at Danger when “Off” (for signals) or at normal when “Off” (for points).

Hoping that I am right so far, this leads to a number of questions of things about which I am not sure:

1). On Nos. 1 and 4, does the “in nor pos 6 6” and “in nor 5 5” mean that the FPL can only be unlocked when the relevant point is in its “normal” or “Off” position?

2). There are two 7 ground signals, one facing away from the station (7 Pull)and one facing towards the sidings (7 Push). FPL on 6, lever No.1 appears to require both of these to be “Off” (at danger). Does this mean there are two levers – or if not, how can they both be “Off”?

3). To pull No. 5 or No. 6 “On” does not seem to require the appropriate FPL to be “On” or unlocked, or am I missing something?

4). Lever No. 6 seems to operate both the main points at 6 as well as the catch points next to 7 Push, presumably via the same set of rods. Is that correct, two points with the same lever? These are the catch points next to 7 Push.

This is a photograph of the main points at No. 6. What is the linkage on the middle left and what does it do? Is it controlled by Lever No. 6 or lever No.1?

5). This is a photograph of the back of the tiny signal box at South Hayling. You can clearly see the ladder on the face side of the starter signal on the right.

I can see the rods that work from levers 1, 4, 5 and 6 and that cross the track on the right to run down to points 5 and 6. There also appears to be a signal wire running from the pulley at the bottom of the starter signal on the right, across the tracks to a pulley under the three rods. But that leaves at least six signal wires unaccounted for. You can see some of them in the photographs above, of the Catch points and Point No. 6, running alongside the track, but how do they get there? Any Ideas?

Any and all help very much appreciated!

All the best,

Echini.

[DLT]

The bay platform starter is a standard Saxby & Farmer design, as used by the LBSC.  Therefore its presumably an original installation, and not a hand-me-down from another company.

Good examples of this type can be seen at Sheffield Park on The Bluebell railway:  https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-semaphore-stop-signal-bluebell-railway-sussex-england-32225523.html

The main starter with its railbuilt post is a standard SR type.  When or why it was replaced I don't know.

Signalling is a HUGE and fascinating subject in itself, and quite a minefield for getting it wrong!

 

Cheers, Dave.

[DLT]

This is a very good book, but quite old now (1977) https://www.google.com/search?q=a+pictorial+record+of+southern+signals&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTjsurspnjAhVIAmMBHSkrCugQ_AUIECgB&biw=1920&bih=969

I'm sure there are more recent publications, and I expect somebody with greater knowledge than me will step in!

Cheers, Dave.

[DLT]

There is a clearer picture of the bay starter here:  http://haylingbillyheritage.org/places/hayling-station/hayling-island-bay-starter-signal-in-off-position/

The ladder at the front and the pagoda-shaped finial on the top of the post are very distinctive Saxby & Farmer features.

[DLT]

And here is an SR standard rail-built type, on the Hayling branch:  Hayling Branch Signal

Dave.

[flyingsignalman]

No 7 lever had three positions; The normal position would be standing vertical in the middle of what would be normally a pull from normal to reverse. Both discs would be at danger with the lever in that position.

To clear a disc you either pushed the lever fully normal or pulled it towards you to the full reverse position and the respective disc would clear. It was a way of saving levers.

[flyingsignalman]

Looking at the diagram, the facing point locks stand in; this means either lever 1 or 4 must be reversed before the points they lock can be reversed. 

To clear signal 2 all the rest of the levers would be normal except 7pull which would have been cleared first.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

I think the OP may need some clarification of the conventional terms used in signalling. 

 

Imagine you're the signalman, standing facing the lever frame:

When the lever is leaning away, in its furthest position away from you, it is said to be "Normal", "On" or "In the frame".

When you've pulled the lever towards you, it is said to be "Reversed", "Off" or "out of the frame".

 

(the exception to the rule is 7 lever as explained by Flyingsignalman)

[Harlequin]

12 hours ago, Echini said:

Hayling Island Signals.

This is a photograph of the main points at No. 6. What is the linkage on the middle left and what does it do? Is it controlled by Lever No. 6 or lever No.1?

 

 

Hi Echini,

The mechanism you are asking about is a detection bar of some sort. The experts should be able to tell us its proper name (there are different kinds of detection bar) and how it interacts with the rest of the signalling system.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Harlequin

[Joseph_Pestell]

An anti-fouling bar. Stops other items being moved if there is a wagon, coach or loco standing there.

 

Generally, it is a slightly unusual set-up with a point being operated by lever 1 rather than a signal.

 

How does the OP want to do the interlocking? By way of a locking frame or electrically?

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

An anti-fouling bar. Stops other items being moved if there is a wagon, coach or loco standing there.

 

Generally, it is a slightly unusual set-up with a point being operated by lever 1 rather than a signal.

 

How does the OP want to do the interlocking? By way of a locking frame or electrically?

Is it a fouling bar (none shown on the diagram) OR is it part of the set up of the facing point lock bars because it appears to be arranged as a lifting bar and not as a depression bar? 

[bécasse]

The signalling has been changed at some time. I would expect both FPLs to have been worked originally by lever 4 (not an unusual arrangement anywhere in southern England - but potentially a pig to work) with lever 1 spare (nominally for the fixed distant). I would also expect that lever 7 (then a commonplace normal/reverse lever) would have worked the required dolly at the exit from the sidings (ie 7 PUSH) and there would have been no dolly at the throat, movements being flagged instead; Saxby's are very unlikely to have installed a PULL/PUSH lever but it would have been a standard Southern Railway solution in the circumstances where an extra dolly was required.

From the style of the orthography on the locking chart, I would be inclined to say that both changes date from early in the Southern Railway era. The use of lever 1 for one of the FPLs  may well date from the installation of the lifting bar shown in the photo (I agree with The Stationmaster, it definitely seems to be a lifting bar and therefore linked with one or other of the FPLs) as trying to work three lifting bars from one lever would definitely have been a lifting bar too far.

Incidentally, although the diagram doesn't show it, the lever frame was mounted orthogonally to the tracks with the bobby facing towards Havant. Lever 3 wasn't normally used (as trains from Havant always ran into platform 2 and the shunt used the dolly) and was "collared".

[DLT]

Have you seen this topic?  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/135514-hayling-island-station-building/

He is building a lovely model of Hayling Island in 0-Gauge, and has some information on the point-rodding etc.

Cheers, Dave.

[RailWest]

3 hours ago, bécasse said:

The signalling has been changed at some time. I would expect both FPLs to have been worked originally by lever 4 (not an unusual arrangement anywhere in southern England - but potentially a pig to work) with lever 1 spare (nominally for the fixed distant). I would also expect that lever 7 (then a commonplace normal/reverse lever) would have worked the required dolly at the exit from the sidings (ie 7 PUSH) and there would have been no dolly at the throat, movements being flagged instead; Saxby's are very unlikely to have installed a PULL/PUSH lever but it would have been a standard Southern Railway solution in the circumstances where an extra dolly was required.

From the style of the orthography on the locking chart, I would be inclined to say that both changes date from early in the Southern Railway era. The use of lever 1 for one of the FPLs  may well date from the installation of the lifting bar shown in the photo (I agree with The Stationmaster, it definitely seems to be a lifting bar and therefore linked with one or other of the FPLs) as trying to work three lifting bars from one lever would definitely have been a lifting bar too far.

Incidentally, although the diagram doesn't show it, the lever frame was mounted orthogonally to the tracks with the bobby facing towards Havant. Lever 3 wasn't normally used (as trains from Havant always ran into platform 2 and the shunt used the dolly) and was "collared".

 

I would agree with the gist of becasse's comments :-). However I'm not sure why the lock bar shown in the photo would necessarily have been a third bar, as opposed to simply being the end of the bar for 5, and therefore no necessarily the reason for the chaage.

 

I have seen a 1950 interior view of the box in which it can be seen that the catch-block on 7 is a different pattern (akin to the Stevens type) than those on the other levers, which adds weight (no pun intended!) to the idea that it was indeed a  later modification to push-pull working.

 

On a pedantic note <g> for the OP, there is no such thing as a 'Home Starter'  - you've been reading too many model railway catalogues! As the locking table says, the signals at the ends of the platforms were simply 'Starting' signals.

Edited July 4, 2019 by RailWest

[Joseph_Pestell]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Is it a fouling bar (none shown on the diagram) OR is it part of the set up of the facing point lock bars because it appears to be arranged as a lifting bar and not as a depression bar? 

 

I take your point about it not showing on the diagram. But that could be a discrepancy between date of diagram and date of photo. I can't see how that piece of machinery would help to lock the points.

 

The quirky numbering definitely hints at changes. Normal practice is signals - points - signals, because it makes the interlocking easier.

 

Perhaps worth reminding the OP (and others) that interlocking need not always be via the frame. Where two adjacent levers need interlocking, it can sometimes be done by the simple method of welding a metal bar to the front of a lever so that one can not be pulled off before the other.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

4 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Perhaps worth reminding the OP (and others) that interlocking need not always be via the frame. Where two adjacent levers need interlocking, it can sometimes be done by the simple method of welding a metal bar to the front of a lever so that one can not be pulled off before the other.

 

Ive never heard of that, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the info

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just been looking at Historical Survey of Southern Stations (OPC) - Volume 1 (there only ever was one, sadly).

 

Hayling, annoyingly, is one of the ones where they have not reproduced the signalling diagram, but they have numbered the signals on the track diagram. That shows the advance starter (8) on the same doll as the home to bay (3) rather than on a separate post.

 

Edit: As usual, I should have looked at the SRS website. Hayling Island is shown there - much as in the OP's drawing except for that advanced starter (8). Also confirms that the point lock is (1) rather than 5 which would perhaps have been more convenient.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Joseph_Pestell
Add info

[Joseph_Pestell]

39 minutes ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

 

Ive never heard of that, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the info

 

I'll see if I can find an illustration.

[RailWest]

1 hour ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

 

Ive never heard of that, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the info

IIRC known as a 'lug' frame and common on small L&NWR lever-frames.  Not sure of the LB&SCR ever had such a thing.

[RailWest]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I take your point about it not showing on the diagram. But that could be a discrepancy between date of diagram and date of photo. I can't see how that piece of machinery would help to lock the points.

 

The quirky numbering definitely hints at changes. Normal practice is signals - points - signals, because it makes the interlocking easier.

 

Perhaps worth reminding the OP (and others) that interlocking need not always be via the frame. Where two adjacent levers need interlocking, it can sometimes be done by the simple method of welding a metal bar to the front of a lever so that one can not be pulled off before the other.

>>>I take your point about it not showing on the diagram. But that could be a discrepancy between date of diagram and date of photo. I can't see how that piece of machinery would help to lock the points.....

 

It didn't. It was a 'lock bar' or 'locking bar' and formed part of the FPL mechanism. It's purpose was to prevent operation of an FPL if a train was

standing on or near the point.

 

>>>The quirky numbering definitely hints at changes. Normal practice is signals - points - signals, because it makes the interlocking easier....

 

Well, 'usually' perhaps, but it all depends upon the age of the installation, the practice of the railway company (or their contractor) at that time, and any specific 'quirks' of the individual location, as well as changes which may have taken place over the years.

 

>>>....interlocking need not always be via the frame. Where two adjacent levers need interlocking, it can sometimes be done by the simple method of welding a metal bar to the front of a lever so that one can not be pulled off before the other....

 

...but that is still part of the frame interlocking, just done in a different way.

[Echini]

Found this picture of the inside of the tiny signal box, which confirms that lever 7 was a three position lever with a centre position where both ground signals were at danger.

Sorry about getting "On" and "Off" back to front, but this is all new to me!

Thanks for the many replies, they make very intersting reading.

Regards

Echini

[Harlequin]

So, is this right:

 

The bar shown in the photo is a lifting locking bar, probably associated with the FPL for 5. When the signalman pulls lever 4 (the FPL for 5) it simultaneously attempts to lift the bar and engage the FPL. If there's no train standing on the bar it lifts fully and the FPL engages but if there is a train standing on the bar the bar won't lift, the FPL won't engage and the lever in the box won't travel the full distance so the operator has immediate physical feedback about the presence of the train.

 

?

[RailWest]

4 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

So, is this right:

 

The bar shown in the photo is a lifting locking bar, probably associated with the FPL for 5. When the signalman pulls lever 4 (the FPL for 5) it simultaneously attempts to lift the bar and engage the FPL. If there's no train standing on the bar it lifts fully and the FPL engages but if there is a train standing on the bar the bar won't lift, the FPL won't engage and the lever in the box won't travel the full distance so the operator has immediate physical feedback about the presence of the train.

 

?

Just about :-) When the FPL lever is stroked from normal to reverse, or vice-versa, the bar will lift and then fall again, so that it is clear of the flangeway for the train to pass once the point has been (un)locked.

Edited July 4, 2019 by RailWest

[DLT]

5 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

So, is this right:

The bar shown in the photo is a lifting locking bar, probably associated with the FPL for 5. When the signalman pulls lever 4 (the FPL for 5) it simultaneously attempts to lift the bar and engage the FPL. If there's no train standing on the bar it lifts fully and the FPL engages but if there is a train standing on the bar the bar won't lift, the FPL won't engage and the lever in the box won't travel the full distance so the operator has immediate physical feedback about the presence of the train. ?

 

DISengage the FPL.  So its impossible to unlock and change the points if a train is standing on it.

[Harlequin]

1 minute ago, DLT said:

 

DISengage the FPL.  So its impossible to unlock and change the points if a train is standing on it.

Yes, good point. So when the FPL lever is standing Normal the FPL is engaged, that being the safest default.

 

I think I've read about (and seen discussion on RMWeb about) FPL levers that stand Reversed when the FPL is engaged but I think that's much less common.