Looking for Hayling Signals Prototype Advice

[DLT]

Diagram of an FPL with Fouling bar here:  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/19013-facing-point-lock-operation/&do=findComment&comment=191369  Showing that the bar is part of the mechanism to unlock the FPL.  Any wheels over the bar, no unlocking!

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

44 minutes ago, DLT said:

Diagram of an FPL with Fouling bar here:  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/19013-facing-point-lock-operation/&do=findComment&comment=191369  Showing that the bar is part of the mechanism to unlock the FPL.  Any wheels over the bar, no unlocking!

 

 

Like me, you are calling that a fouling bar (anti-fouling). Others here are calling it a locking bar. Is this just that some of us are LMS and others are GWR? Or something more specific. I know that New St had lots of them because of the complexity of the track layout in a constricted space.

 

According to the OPC book, most major changes at South Hayling / Hayling Island occurred around 1900 with the creation of the bay platform. Only minor amendments thereafter.

 

Another oddity that strikes me about Hayling is that the runround point at the end of platform 2 is locally controlled by a point lever. Nothing unusual in that but there should be a release lever in the box interlocked with the approach signals.

 

And just another thought. On one of the layout planning threads, someone has stated that having a bay platform on a model railway is a meme - something that did not happen much in reality. But Hayling, and so many other busy resort termini, show that it did occur often even if not at the majority of termini.

[RailWest]

Fouling bars and locking bars may look the same, but do different things. Locking bars will rise and fall, so the 'fouling' is only transient and detects the presence of a train momentarily. A fouling bar will rise and stay up for the duration of whatever it is provided for.

 

FPLS locking bars, by virtue of their action, function both when locking AND when unlocking a FPL.

 

Different railways companies adopted different approaches to whether FPLs stood normally IN or OUT, but I would suggest that the latter was marginally more common. It was not unknown for both to occur in the same lever-frame! In the case of un-manned ground-frames that were normally locked-up, then it tended to be the case that they stood IN so that all the levers were normally when the GF was locked.

[The Stationmaster]

Having looked at one of the photos on the 'Bigbee Line's' Hayling Island layout thread I think the bar in question is probably a split facing point locking bar which could be in one piece because of the presence of a check rail.

[bécasse]

Some more issues with the signalling at South Hayling/Hayling Island:

 

1) The signal box dated from the early years of the 20th century when what had been a loco shed siding was replaced by the bay platform (and an extended main platform), prior to that there had just been a home and a starter worked, I suspect, from a ground frame.

 

2) The LB&SCR seems to have always(?) used 4-wheel stock on the branch and the locking bars for the two facing points would, in consequence, have been short. Once the Southern started to use bogie stock (as it did quite quickly) the locking bars would have had to be lengthened. This explains the separate third bar (because the layout didn't allow the inner locking bar to be lengthened per se but the third bar provides the same functionality) and is almost certainly the reason why the outer FPL was altered so as to be worked by lever 1.

 

3) The homes and the advanced starting signal were all renewed onto a new steel bracket signal by the Southern Region, probably in the late 1950s. I think that they may have been moved out slightly at the same time.

 

4) The loco release point at the country end of the platform was biased (in much the same way as catch points) to the run round loop and wasn't normally worked. A lever was provided so that it could be held in the other position towards the platform if required (again much as with catch points).

 

5) The whole layout was on a slight down grade toward the buffer stops. When the daily mixed train (there wasn't normally a separate freight working) arrived the train stopped short of the platform and the wagons were uncoupled from the train, held on the guard's brake. The passenger part of the train then continued into the main platform (2). The siding points were then reversed and the guard released his hand brake allowing the wagons (and van) to roll gently into the siding, being stopped once clear by reapplication of the guard's hand brake. The loco then ran round and shunted the passenger vehicles into the bay. Leaving the passenger vehicles there, the loco then started shunting the freight, first placing the van in the main passenger platform and then building up the wagons for departure against it. Finally, the passenger vehicles were shunted again, this time on to the wagons and van in the main platform so that the mixed train was ready for departure back to Havant.

If, for any reason (wind, snow, etc), the initial gravity shunt proved impractical, the arriving mixed train entered the main platform in its entirety and was run round, the wagons and van then being shunted to the sidings before the passenger vehicles could be shunted to the bay. The gravity shunt saved timed and effort, of course, and does seem to have been officially sanctioned.

 

6) An interesting feature of the line is that it was always worked by staff and ticket, although the use of tickets would have been unusual.

[KenB]

Lots of excellent detail on the specific signalling system at Hayling Island  written here.  I would like to offer a a few pointers regarding basic signalling and locking systems.  A facing point need only be locked for the passage of a passenger train. A trailing point does not have to locked.  The locking lever (blue) is usually pulled out the frame to release the point lever (black).  The point is pulled and the blue lever replaced in the frame locking the point.  Once the correct levers are set for the road this will release the signal lever (red).  A locking bar if attached to a locking lever will ensure no rolling stock or locomotive is foul of the clearance point.  It is a mechanical track circuit which prevents bashing trains together.

The levers are badged with the same info as displayed on the diagram.  Studying the diagram I read this as follows:-to operate lever 10  you would first pull 4 to release the points 5, pull 5 and replace 4 to lock points 5 and with 7 fully out the frame pull 10 this will lock levers 1, 4 and 7.  Pulling lever 8 would then also lock 1,4 and 7.  To releasae lever 8 would require the signal box in advance to release that lever.  Once 10 then 8 are put back in the frame all levers are released with seven being centred.  What is not clear to me is how the Tyers staff and ticket system affects the frame locking for down trains , which I believe it must because the regulation 440yd clearing point beyond the down home signal appears to be the buffer stops.  This in turn raises a question of operating in fog and falling snow where 880 yards is required.  The up trains advanced starter must be released by the Tyers system by the box i advance as mentioned. The key to operating this box will be sight of the signal box special operating instructions.

 

[RailWest]

>>>The locking lever (blue) is usually pulled out the frame to release the point lever (black)...

 

Which may be true for Hayling Island, but I would contend that more usually the FPL lever was pulled to LOCK the points.

 

>>> A locking bar if attached to a locking lever will ensure no rolling stock or locomotive is foul of the clearance point....

I must disagree. The 'clearance point' for a point applies on a converging line and would - if deemed necessary - have a mechanical fouling bar (MFB) worked in conjunction with the point not the FPL.

 

>>>What is not clear to me is how the Tyers staff and ticket system affects the frame locking for down trains , which I believe it must because the regulation 440yd clearing point beyond the down home signal appears to be the buffer stops.  This in turn raises a question of operating in fog and falling snow where 880 yards is required. 

For a terminal station/platform AIUI the clearing point was 'usually' the buffer-stop under Reg 4, regardless of the actual distance.

 

>>>To release lever 8 would require the signal box in advance to release that lever.  .......The up trains advanced starter must be released by the Tyers system by the box i advance as mentioned.

 

I would disagree. AFAIK 'line clear' release was never used on single-lines with TS&T working, nor does the diagram state that 8 was locked by the block. Such sophistication really only happened with electric train/staff/tablet/token systems.

 

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, DLT said:

Diagram of an FPL with Fouling bar here:  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/19013-facing-point-lock-operation/&do=findComment&comment=191369  Showing that the bar is part of the mechanism to unlock the FPL.  Any wheels over the bar, no unlocking!

 

That's a facing point lock (or locking) bar - usage of the words lock and locking varied around the railway and probably between Companies/BR Regions.  As 'Railwest' has explained the locking bar, which is a rising bar,  is part of the mechanism to ensure that a facing point does not move underneath a passing trains, thus it has to be as long as the wheelbase of the longest vehicle likely to pass over the points it is locking (the GWR with 70ft coaches had some very long FP. lock bars) which would explain what 'bécasse' says would have happened at Hayling Island when bogie coaches arrived on the branch.

 

The mechanism works by the rodding from the signalbox driving the rise and fall of the bar and the bar in turn drives the bolt which engages with the front stretcher bar in order to stop the point moving.  When the points are locked and bolted the bar is in its lower position and the presence of a wheel passing over it prevents the bar from rising thereby unbolting the points and leaving them liable to move.

 

In contrast a fouling bar works in effect the opposite way round in that it is a depression bar and its purpose is to detect the presence of a vehicle in the fouling point at a divergence - thus it will be found at the heel end of a point instead of the toe end.  In this case the presence of a vehicle will depress the bar which will prevent the lever which works it (or the electric circuit it controls) from being moved thereby preventing (usually) any points being moved under the rear end of a train.  It can only be moved to unlock whatever it is locking once the vehicles involved are clear of the fouling point.

 

Referring to 'Railwest's post above I have checked the Southern Railway Train Staff & Ticket Block Regulations and at a terminal station the Regulation read as follows (relevant excerpts only, their bold) -

 

( .... the Is Line Clear Signal must not be acknowledged and permission given for train to approach in accordance with Regulation 3 (Mode of Signalling) 

 

(iii)  At a  Train Staff Terminal Station, if the line on which the approaching Train has to run be clear, and the facing points are set for that Line.

 

The latter is perhaps a little ambiguous and I suspect - as with the GWR Regulation - that it was not clarified until, the issue of the 1960 Regulation which read -

 

(ii) At a terminal station, if the line for which the facing points are set is clear to the buffer stops or other specified point.

 

For folk not used to such wording when it says 'the facing points are set' it means not only that they are set towards the correct line but they have also been locked by the facing point lock.

Incidentally as Tyer's block instruments were used to block signal trains on the Hayling Island branch I don't know to what extent any controls normally associated with them were present but judging by the drawing I doubt if any of them, such as a Line Clear release, were.  The ultimate security and separation between trains was enforced by the Train Staff being handed to the Driver (or the Driver being showm the Train Staff before being given a Ticket 

Edited July 5, 2019 by The Stationmaster
Addendum re reason for not having a Line Clear release

[bécasse]

15 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

(ii) At a terminal station, if the line for which the facing points are set is clear to the buffer stops or other specified point.

 

 

On the Southern, and possibly elsewhere, at terminal stations where the line continued on beyond the end of the platform to buffer stops, the (buffer stop) end of the platform was taken as being the effective clearance point, not least because the driver would be expecting to stop at that point anyway. This would have been the case at Hayling Island. In practice it is unlikely that any vehicles would be present between this point and the buffer stops (certainly at Hayling Island), but there would have been no certainty as to the lay of the release points which were typically hand-worked (and biased to the loop anyway at Hayling Island).

[Echini]

Thank you to everyone for such a wealth of information and detail. Just brilliant!

I am still a bit confused on one point:

The "Locking" requirements of levers 7, 8, 9 and 10 seem to confirm that the FPL on 1 and 4 are both "Locked" when In the Frame (which Railwest said is unusual). However, when wanting to pull lever 5 or lever 6 Out of the Frame, there is no mention of Levers 1 or 4 in the "Release" section. Would you not have to pull Lever 1 Out of the Frame to unlock the FPL before pulling Lever 6 Out of the Frame? Same with levers 4 and 5. Or am I missing something in the sequence?

I can see that you have to return Levers 1 and 4 In to the Frame before the signals can be released, but there is no mention of pulling Levers 1 or 4 Out of the Frame.

Thanks again,

Echini.

[RailWest]

20 minutes ago, Echini said:

Thank you to everyone for such a wealth of information and detail. Just brilliant!

I am still a bit confused on one point:

The "Locking" requirements of levers 7, 8, 9 and 10 seem to confirm that the FPL on 1 and 4 are both "Locked" when In the Frame (which Railwest said is unusual). However, when wanting to pull lever 5 or lever 6 Out of the Frame, there is no mention of Levers 1 or 4 in the "Release" section. Would you not have to pull Lever 1 Out of the Frame to unlock the FPL before pulling Lever 6 Out of the Frame? Same with levers 4 and 5. Or am I missing something in the sequence?

I can see that you have to return Levers 1 and 4 In to the Frame before the signals can be released, but there is no mention of pulling Levers 1 or 4 Out of the Frame.

Thanks again,

Echini.

>>>However, when wanting to pull lever 5 or lever 6 Out of the Frame, there is no mention of Levers 1 or 4 in the "Release" section. Would you not have to pull Lever 1 Out of the Frame to unlock the FPL before pulling Lever 6 Out of the Frame? Same with levers 4 and 5.

 

Ironically that caught my attention too and I had to think long and hard before deciding on the probable reason for the apparent omission :-)

 

Yes, as both 1 and 4 were normally 'in' , then you would have to pull one or other of those levers in order to then be able to pull 5 or 6. However....if you simply wrote in the table (say) "5 released by 4", then that would mean also - by the reciprical nature of mechanical locking - that once 5 had been reversed then 4 would be locked in the reverse position as well, but of course we know that 4 would have to be put back to lock the point before you could clear 7PULL.

 

I would have expected to see the 'Released By" column for 5 to contain something like " (Released by 4 from either position) " (and similar for 1 and 6) , which is the sort of wording often found on lever description plates these days. (Stationmaster may be familiar with Combe Jcn No 1 GF :-) )

Edited July 5, 2019 by RailWest

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, RailWest said:

>>>However, when wanting to pull lever 5 or lever 6 Out of the Frame, there is no mention of Levers 1 or 4 in the "Release" section. Would you not have to pull Lever 1 Out of the Frame to unlock the FPL before pulling Lever 6 Out of the Frame? Same with levers 4 and 5.

 

Ironically that caught my attention too and I had to think long and hard before deciding on the probable reason for the apparent omission :-)

 

Yes, as both 1 and 4 were normally 'in' , then you would have to pull one or other of those levers in order to then be able to pull 5 or 6. However....if you simply wrote in the table (say) "5 released by 4", then that would mean also - by the reciprical nature of mechanical locking - that once 5 had been reversed then 4 would be locked in the reverse position as well, but of course we know that 4 would have to be put back to lock the point before you could clear 7PULL.

 

I would have expected to see the 'Released By" column for 5 to contain something like " (Released by 4 from either position) " (and similar for 1 and 6) , which is the sort of wording often found on lever description plates these days. (Stationmaster may be familiar with Combe Jcn No 1 GF :-) )

It's all rather roundabout on the Locking Chart but simple when you get to it - 7 Pull is a leading disc and thus it leads (or releases when pulled 2 (or 3 when 5 is also reversed).  And 7 pull locks 1 and 4 so therefore 2 (or 3 when 5 is reverse) is in fact locking 1 because 7 has done that before it releases the Home Signal levers.

 

Compared to what I'm used to on Western Locking Charts with FPLs standing normally out it seems a rather convoluted way of going about things but it is really a result of the FPL bolts standing in and 7 pull being a leading disc. 

[RailWest]

Out of curiosity, I had a brief look to see what there might be amongst my SRS records for Hayling Island. Not a lot, obviously a quiet place!

 

The Down Distant was converted to yellow arm and light in February 1929 (Signal Instruction 7 of 1929).

 

There is an Index entry (but no actual Notice copy) for Notice 21 of 1950 regarding replacement of the Down Homes bracket (apparently on 24th May). The new signals were 15' high and located 86 yards further out. There was also a new Up Advanced Starting 10' high also 86 yards further out. Although not specifically stated as such, I get the impression that this was a separate post, NOT on the bracket. It is noteworthy that BR(S) diagrams shows this signal as a separate post on the Up side.  I wonder whence George Pryer got the idea that 8 was on the bracket - maybe that was an earlier arrangement - do any photos exist?

 

Interestingly the Notice apparently stated that the Down Distant was then only 240 yards from the Down Home !  That would match with the details on the OP's diagram. Although that shows the DD on the Up side of the line, a later version of the same diagram (last amendment date 30 Nov 59) shows it on the Down side at 1000 yards (possibly after a renewal?).

 

There is another Index entry (only) to Notice 47 of 1959 regarding replacement of the No 2 Road Up Starting (16th December?)  15' high and 3 yards further out. So I would suggest that the OP needs to think carefully about the period that he is modelling as to what form to make this signal.

 

I did wonder whether the use of 7PULL as a 'running shunt' might date from the 1950 alteration, as prior to that the DHs would have been much closer. However the yardage quoted on the diagram would suggest that the earlier DH location would still have been ~32yards in rear of the shunt, so maybe not? (I've tried to find the old DHs location on old OS maps, but for some annoying reason they seem to mark only the starting signals :-( ) Of course, whenever 7PULL became a running shunt might - or might not - actually be the same time as when the shunt was provided in the first place.

Edited July 5, 2019 by RailWest

[Echini]

Thanks Railwest. Interesting that the change of the No 2 Road Up Starting was as late as 16th December 1959, just four years before the line closed. I guess that the frequent comments about the "unusual" configuration with one starter being upper quadrant and the other lower results from the huge increase in photographs, films and interest in the last year or so of operation.

Echini, the OP, lived on Hayling Island close to the station and spent a happy summer aged eight breaking large BR coal with a sledge hammer on the Hayling coal stage so that it would fit into the Terriers' small fireboxes. I went home dirty but happy every evening having often been given a ride on the engine as a reward, generally as the engine returned to pick up its coaches and, if they were running two trains, shunting the coaches into the bay platform. If I am faithful to that date, then both starters would be lower quadrant, it was 1955. We shall see. 

Regards

Echini

[Echini]

Just checked and found that this photograph shows the No 2 Road Down Home, No 1 Road Down Home and the Up Advanced Starting in the background. The photograph is undated but appears to have been taken after the line was closed as the rails are quite rusty.

 

The signals are just in this one too.

 

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, RailWest said:

"The Down Distant was converted to yellow arm and light in February 1929 (Signal Instruction 7 of 1929)."

• This would have freed up lever 1 thus allowing the operation of the two FPLs to be split. This might have happened at the same time (as it would not have needed to be mentioned in the Signal Instruction) or a little later. The SR had a major contemporary programme of eliminating unnecessary worked signals.

"There is an Index entry (but no actual Notice copy) for Notice 21 of 1950 regarding replacement of the Down Homes bracket (apparently on 24th May). The new signals were 15' high and located 86 yards further out. There was also a new Up Advanced Starting 10' high also 86 yards further out. Although not specifically stated as such, I get the impression that this was a separate post, NOT on the bracket. It is noteworthy that BR(S) diagrams shows this signal as a separate post on the Up side.  I wonder whence George Pryer got the idea that 8 was on the bracket - maybe that was an earlier arrangement - do any photos exist?"

• The post-1900 bracketed down homes and up advanced starting signal (on a straight post) were precisely opposite each other on their respective sides of the line. There exists a photo taken by the late Sid Nash in 1949. 

"Interestingly the Notice apparently stated that the Down Distant was then only 240 yards from the Down Home !  That would match with the details on the OP's diagram. Although that shows the DD on the Up side of the line, a later version of the same diagram (last amendment date 30 Nov 59) shows it on the Down side at 1000 yards (possibly after a renewal?)."

• The fixed distant was definitely well out at the time of closure.

"I did wonder whether the use of 7PULL as a 'running shunt' might date from the 1950 alteration, as prior to that the DHs would have been much closer. However the yardage quoted on the diagram would suggest that the earlier DH location would still have been ~32yards in rear of the shunt, so maybe not? (I've tried to find the old DHs location on old OS maps, but for some annoying reason they seem to mark only the starting signals :-( ) Of course, whenever 7PULL became a running shunt might - or might not - actually be the same time as when the shunt was provided in the first place."

• The 7PULL running shunt appears in photos which show the pre-1950 LB&SCR bracketed down homes, always as a standard SR Westinghouse disc -- which could have been installed at any time from c1929 onwards. It was indeed quite close beyond those homes.
• Old 25" OS maps do show the position of the down home and up advanced starting signal - note the legend "SPs" although the relevant dots tend to be difficult to see.

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by bécasse

[DLT]

16 minutes ago, Echini said:

Just checked and found that this photograph shows the No 2 Road Down Home, No 1 Road Down Home and the Up Advanced Starting in the background. The photograph is undated but appears to have been taken after the line was closed as the rails are quite rusty.

 

 

I was about to say much the same thing, from looking through the photos in Branch Line to Hayling (Mitchell & Smith, Middleton Press)

From the photos above the later signals are seen to be alongside the left-hand curve.

Photo 94 in the above book is a northward view of a train passing the original signals (all Brighton Saxby & Farmer LQs) dated 1949, showing the signals at the south end of the straight section between the curves, and well south of the leaning telegraph pole. So they must have been just beyond the nearer telegraph pole in the photo above. 

One possible explanation for moving the signals further out was that sighting them was becoming difficult in the original position, due the tree growth on the inside of the curve?

Not sure why the advance starter (old and new) was on such a short post, other than it was situated right underneath the telegraph wires?

 

Interestingly, the online OS 25inch/mile map here:  https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18&lat=50.7940&lon=-0.9941&layers=168&right=BingHyb   dated 1892 - 1914 shows the original layout with short platform and engine shed, whereas the same map in Mitchell & Smith is dated 1910 and shows the later layout. 

 

Thanks very much for all this guys, I've looked far more closely at Hayling Island in the last few days than ever before!

 

Cheers, Dave.

[RailWest]

>>>>Not sure why the advance starter (old and new) was on such a short post......

 

Well, 'Terriers' were quite low down weren't they, so the driver's eye-level would not have been as far above rail height as on some engines, so an arm about 10' above rail would probably have been about right for optimum sighting?

[Joseph_Pestell]

I suspect that we may see a lot of layouts based on Hayling when those Dapol LBSC coaches arrive. So the info here is going to be useful to many.

[DLT]

3 hours ago, RailWest said:

>>>>Not sure why the advance starter (old and new) was on such a short post......

 

Well, 'Terriers' were quite low down weren't they, so the driver's eye-level would not have been as far above rail height as on some engines, so an arm about 10' above rail would probably have been about right for optimum sighting?

 

Well, nearly all the other signals on the line were a more "normal" height (if there is such a thing as normal) including the platform starters.

[Martin Shaw]

Hi Guys

 

Only just picked up this thread. I've had a look in Wagstaff and his diagram for Hayling Island shows two separate posts for the home signals with the advance starter on one of them. The distant signal is shown as fixed and 1 is the FPL on 6 points. The diagram is dated 1920 so predates yellowisation of the distant signal. I think, as others have commented, lever 4 originally worked both FPLs and 1 would/might have worked the distant. I think that the arrangement of the homes/advanced starter may well have been the original installation and it has been incorrectly perpetuated in drawings ever since. It is likely that the LB&SCR renewed the signals on the line, perhaps in the 1890's or thereabouts, and is apparent that separate home and advancd starting signals were provided by then. I have a book titled "Branch Lines of the Southern Railway" by Reeve and Hawkins published by Wild Swan in 1980, which helpfully has a section on the Hayling Railway which includes 3 very useful photos of signals. A front and rear view of the down home signals, a bog standard Brighton equal doll with absolutely no sign of a former up advanced starting signal ever having been there, and more importantly a front view of the advanced starting signal, again standard Brighton desing but somewhat short in stature. All the posts of theses signals have been sistered which suggest the posts themselves were badly rotted and I would suggest the renewals by rail built versions was for no other reason than life expiry of the wooden ones. 7 pull existed in 1920 and probably from whenever the line had its signals renewed, it provides a measure of route holding, both the Brighton and the Southern were quite fond of this arrangement.

 

I was bemused by Becasse's comment about the use of tickets being unusual, there are plenty of photos showing two trains at Hayling Island, at least one of them must have got there by using a ticket, which occured on a daily basis, at least during the summer timetable.

 

I can also confirm that there was no connection between the block or staff and signals. It relied totally on the integrity of the signalmen and drivers obeying the rules.

 

Hope this helpfully supplements others comments.

Regards

Martin

Edited July 7, 2019 by Martin Shaw

[RailWest]

>>>7 pull existed in 1920 and probably from whenever the line had its signals renewed, it provides a measure of route holding, both the Brighton and the Southern were quite fond of this arrangement.....

 

Whilst Martin may well be right, I remain cautious about assuming that 7PULL was initially a running shunt simply because of its apparent location in advance of the Down Homes - it might not have become one until some time after its initial installation. However it's probably all rather immaterial for the OP's choice of the 1950s for his model.

 

The post-1950 arrangement reminds me of Seaton with its second (1936) box, although in that case the Down Homes bracket was 50 yards further out than the Up Advanced Starting.

Edited July 7, 2019 by RailWest

[Echini]

Hi Martin,

When they were busy, the Hayling Branch ran two trains in each direction per hour using three engines. A train would be waiting in the Bay platform at Hayling as another train arrived from Havant with the staff. The train in the Bay platform would take the staff and leave immediately for Havant. The engine at Hayling would run round its coaches and pick up coal from the coal stand, then it would shunt its carriages into the Bay platform. Meanwhile the train that arrived at Havant would disconnect from its coaches and pull forward to the water point. A third engine would have been waiting on the run around loop and it would pull forward and pick up the coaches from the Havant platform along with the staff and head off to Hayling, where the whole process was repeated. This was how they managed two trips each way in an hour with a single journey time of 13 to 14 minutes! They only stopped at the intermediate stations every other trip.

So, in normal operations, they would not have needed to use tickets. However, at the start and end of the day, tickets would have been needed. On busy days, they would typically arrive at Havant from Fratton with three engines and the coaches that they needed but, because of weight restrictions, they could not take two engines across the bridge so, to get both trains to Hayling to start the sequence, they would have had to use the ticket system.

This is a picture of two engines arriving at Havant from Fratton with the coaches for the day.

Similarly, at the end of the day, they would have needed a ticket to get both trains back to Havant. Three engines were only used if they were really busy, but two was quite normal. They sometimes ran as many as four coaches, the maximum that the bay platform could accomodate, but they more usually ran with two coaches on each train. Any reminiscenses by Hayling drivers and fireman always remark that after a day on the Hayling run you knew that you had done a day's work!

Regards

Echini

 

[Echini]

Just found this picture of the two Down Home signals and the Up Advanced Starter taken in 1963 just before the closure.

Regards

Echini

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, RailWest said:

>>>7 pull existed in 1920 and probably from whenever the line had its signals renewed, it provides a measure of route holding, both the Brighton and the Southern were quite fond of this arrangement.....

 

Whilst Martin may well be right, I remain cautious about assuming that 7PULL was initially a running shunt simply because of its apparent location in advance of the Down Homes - it might not have become one until some time after its initial installation. However it's probably all rather immaterial for the OP's choice of the 1950s for his model.

 

The post-1950 arrangement reminds me of Seaton with its second (1936) box, although in that case the Down Homes bracket was 50 yards further out than the Up Advanced Starting.

Being used for route holding is rather different from being a running shunt.  It sounds logical to me that with the splitting Home Signal some distance from the facing points there would have to be something for route holding purposes because it would otherwise have meant a very long locking bar indeed.  Whether or not it released the Home Signal in earlier years would only be apparent from the locking chart and while I know that John Wagstaff had copied the locking charts for many Brighton line 'boxes at the same time that he checked his own diagrams against the originals I don't know if they were all published.  

 

I know that he drew a number of tBrighton  'box diagrams while still in his teens and before he started work but from what he said he'd checked tham all against the originals after he'd begun working at Croydon plus I'm fairly sure he also went though a lot of the original contractors' records.   All his drawings and other records lived in several large cupboards which followed him round during office moves (especially during his time at Reading, and probably to the consternation of the folk who had to assist with moving them!