All-new Heljan 47 in 00 gauge

[Clive Mortimore]

Just now, Clive Mortimore said:

The shape will be wrong, the detail will be wrong and no room for the woofer speaker, after all it is only RTR.

 

 

 

 

It won't be in the right livery for my layout.

I'm pre-ordering one for everyone in my family, for their Xmas presents.

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, Ian J. said:

I am still amazed that we sometimes get models (from all 'manufacturers' and comissioners) with issues with basic body shape and dimensions. It's not rocket science to have a list of fundamental measurements to check CAD against when it come time to review it, and then to use those same measurements to check 3D prints and early tooling.

 

My fingers are crossed that Heljan can get the 47 right, as well as the 45 / 25 / anything else.

 

But isn’t that what Heljan are generally thought to have done, but badly? The width of their tubby duff is spot on when compared to the scale width of a real 47, but over the handrails...

 

Roy

[Legend]

4 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Well as we’ve seen with the 66, they won’t. They’ll drop profit margin on existing tooling and sell it cheaper.Bachmann seem to have no appetite for upgrading models, just wringing as much profit as they can out of ancient tooling.

 

this is the first time in a while their 47 has competition ( Vi out of production, Heljan  old version also )

 

its almost like they have decided to be the Tesco of the MR world, allowing others to be the Waitrose and Lidl respectively 

 

More like Waitrose I’d say as they’ve gone upmarket in pricing  and spec with Lidl and Aldi giving good quality at lower prices chipping away at their market. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Legend

[stewartingram]

Lidl, Aldi, & good quality all in the same sentence? Now that is what a call an oxymoron!. 

 

Stewart

[Ian J.]

2 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

But isn’t that what Heljan are generally thought to have done, but badly? The width of their tubby duff is spot on when compared to the scale width of a real 47, but over the handrails...

 

Roy

 

Maybe so. In theory, I would hope that a collection of fundamental measurements would have enough combinations that there would be confirmation of any one measurement against at least one other. It's difficult to explain what I mean with words, but I still think this kind of checking is not rocket science, and something that should be standard practice for all involved in this particular field of design work (models of prototypes).

[WisTramwayMan]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

Lidl, Aldi, & good quality all in the same sentence? Now that is what a call an oxymoron!. 

 

Stewart

The comparison with supermarkets is a pretty good analogy.

 

Using the currently available class 66s as an example:

Hornby is your Lidl/Aldi - does all the basics competently, albeit with limited features.

Bachmann is your Tesco/Sainsbury. does the basics competently, but has more bells and whistles (ie detailing)

Hattons looks to have ambitions to be the Waitrose/M&S Food - time will tell if it succeeds.

 

For me, I've little argument with the Bachmann version, the ones I have are perfectly well detailed for me + are reliable. I have a Hattons version on order, so will see in future if it lives up to the above.

 

Substitute "Hattons" with "Heljan" and you possibly have Heljan's intentions with their new 47. As above, whether it meets those targets remains to be seen, and Heljan should learn from their past if they wish to succeed in their future aims.

[MGR Hooper!]

Those who have their doubts with regards to body shape.....have a valid excuse to be worried. However the OO gauge Class 47 is being done based in the research of the O gauge Class 47. So if there's any 3D prints and/or EP samples of the O gauge one, we'll have a very good idea of what the OO gauge one is going to look like 

 

 

I'd also not base any judgement of the shape completely on CAD images. CAD images aren't the best source to judge. A physical sample is far better. Let's hope that Heljan are open-minded when it comes to sharing development information. They haven't been so in the past. But if modellers get to examine the EP samples, they'll get the feedback they need. Especially if it's a 3D printed sample. 

 

It's also quite hilarious to see people constantly bring up the tubby duff issues. We all know Heljan are aware of the tubby duff issues and the other inaccuracies of that model. They're re-tooling the OO gauge Class 47 for two reasons, one being the older tooling already being damaged and secondly it's not upto current standards. If they felt it was, they'd simply create new moulds from original CADs. BUT they're not. They're re-tooling it from the ground up. So please stop making assumptions that it's going to be an obese model.

 

I know feedback and errors have already been pointed out from the CAD images. After having a look at the photos, that angle is quite low. In CAD programs such an angle isn't a good way to determine accuracy. I suggest sending a polite PM to Ben Jones and asking him for more CAD images in a variety of angles for modellers to study and provide feedback on.

 

We've all seen how well Ben has been heading Heljan's UK wing. He's taken onboard feedback for the Class 86 and it now has one of the best OO gauge representations of a Stone-Faiveley pantograph. So we know they listen. But let's give Heljan feedback based on something solid. Not just assumptions.

[Wheres_Wally]

12 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Well as we’ve seen with the 66, they won’t. They’ll drop profit margin on existing tooling and sell it cheaper.Bachmann seem to have no appetite for upgrading models, just wringing as much profit as they can out of ancient tooling.

 

this is the first time in a while their 47 has competition ( Vi out of production, Heljan  old version also )

 

its almost like they have decided to be the Tesco of the MR world, allowing others to be the Waitrose and Lidl respectively 

 

Bachmann are concentrating on catching up on their programme and not announcing new stuff until it's nearly ready according to the stand staff. That's what people here have been telling them to do, now you want them to stop that and upgrade all the existing range? Make your mind up!

 

Nothing wrong with aiming to be Tesco either. They seem to take a big % of the grocery business. If Bachmann are doing that then they can't be doing too badly. Maybe you should wait for the DJM version.........

[Ian J.]

3 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

...They're re-tooling it from the ground up. So please stop making assumptions that it's going to be an obese model...

 

I don't think anyone has said they're worried this new model is going to have that same problem as the old one. I think the concern is that other errors will creep in. There are still some issues with the 25s according to comments on the 25 thread, and they're now in EP but the problems were seen in the CAD. So people's concerns about Heljan's reliability in this area are still valid.

 

Also, while it's not Heljan, Dapol still scaled down their Rails Terrier from the O gauge version which carried with it at least one notable error (the front of cab spectacle plate size and position) so if there are issues with the O gauge 47, Heljan may still copy those to their OO one.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Ian J.

[Waverley West]

Hmmm, just as I decide to standardise on Bachmann 47s, Heljan go and announce this.

 

It'll be interesting to see just how good the new Heljan one turns out. The Bachmann one is pretty good, but I've always felt that they have never capitalised on the tooling enough. There has for example still been no standard early Railfreight release (non-standard 47050 being the closest) or red stripe Railfreight, and the first domino headcode version won't be released until later this year. The Petroleum one, 47190, had flush headcode panels at both ends and so was useless for renumbering. Large logo 47535 did too if I remember rightly, greatly limiting its potential for renumbering, so I've never bought any, despite the popularity of the livery. They seem a little too obsessed with celebrity liveries as well (for my taste anyway), rather than covering the standard liveries and variants, of which there have been plenty over the years.

 

Personally, I think the new Heljan one is going to have to be pretty good to win a decent market share though. Any significant cock-ups over shape and I won't be buying any. On the other hand, if Heljan get it right and cover plenty of variations and different liveries, then it could be a real winner. Hopefully Ben will make sure it's the latter. I think he's been a brilliant addition to Heljan's staff and is both a good ambassador for the company and a knowledgeable guy. I think he's the difference at Heljan these days compared with when they did the 47 last time round. Hopefully, he'll make sure Heljan deliver the goods with the 25, 45, 47 and 86 and so on. 

 

Good luck to them. I'll be watching with interest, but quite happy for the time-being with my Bachmann ones and a few old Heljan favourites.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Waverley West

[YesTor]

14 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Lidl, Aldi, & good quality all in the same sentence? Now that is what a call an oxymoron!. 

 

Stewart

 

Slightly off-topic perhaps, but actually, I would argue that the fruit and veg from Lidl is in fact way superior to that available at the standard supermarkets, especially compared to some of the wilting, top price veg I've seen on some of Tesco's shelves.   Lidl is way cheaper too and therefore their fresh produce appears to fly off the shelf far quicker, is replenished faster, which again means fresher produce all round, and so the cycle continues...  

 

High-end supermarket 'snobbery' will certainly mean you pay higher prices but it is foolish to assume that it will necessarily translate to better quality.  Learn to shop around... 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by YesTor

[No Decorum]

On ‎06‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 15:00, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Phil

 

I see on Faceache there is someone asking for a class 48 as well.......I don't need one I done that conversion.

 

It would be nice that the unique radiator grille of D1500 was considered and of course the cant rail grilles with less dividing bars found on D1500-1509 (47 401 to 410) is another option.

 

 

You did a 48? Would you mind giving some more detail please? I believe the roofs had to be different to accommodate the engine but I have no idea what they looked like.

 

Just by the way, I don’t do Faceache so it wasn’t me asking for a 48. That means that there are two of us for a start, evidently. Ben’s going to slap us down. I feel it in my bones. 

[brushman47544]

On ‎06‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 15:00, Clive Mortimore said:

I see on Faceache there is someone asking for a class 48 as well.......I don't need one I done that conversion.

 

It would be nice that the unique radiator grille of D1500 was considered and of course the cant rail grilles with less dividing bars found on D1500-1509 (47 401 to 410) is another option.

 

1 hour ago, Waverley West said:

The Bachmann one is pretty good, but I've always felt that they have never capitalised on the tooling enough. There has for example still been no standard early Railfreight release (non-standard 47050 being the closest) or red stripe Railfreight, and the first domino headcode version won't be released until later this year. The Petroleum one, 47190, had flush headcode panels at both ends and so was useless for renumbering. Large logo 47535 did too if I remember rightly, greatly limiting its potential for renumbering, so I've never bought any, despite the popularity of the livery. They seem a little too obsessed with celebrity liveries as well (for my taste anyway), rather than covering the standard liveries and variants, of which there have been plenty over the years.

 

I'm with Waverley West on the question of specials, whether livery or tooling. The first priority should be to cover the standard, common versions that can be renumbered to our hearts content. Class 48 or the first batch of Generators can wait, especially a one loco choice of D1500. One loco to recover the unique tooling costs? These options are more for Extreme Etchings than mainstream models, or at least until the standard versions and liveries have been covered.

[Clive Mortimore]

24 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

You did a 48? Would you mind giving some more detail please? I believe the roofs had to be different to accommodate the engine but I have no idea what they looked like.

 

Just by the way, I don’t do Faceache so it wasn’t me asking for a 48. That means that there are two of us for a start, evidently. Ben’s going to slap us down. I feel it in my bones. 

Hi No Decorum

 

Here is a link to the class 48 conversion I done.

[dj_crisp]

I hope they just get the shape right... especially the front windows which'll make or break this release for me

[Clive Mortimore]

10 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

 

 

I'm with Waverley West on the question of specials, whether livery or tooling. The first priority should be to cover the standard, common versions that can be renumbered to our hearts content. Class 48 or the first batch of Generators can wait, especially a one loco choice of D1500. One loco to recover the unique tooling costs? These options are more for Extreme Etchings than mainstream models, or at least until the standard versions and liveries have been covered.

There is always another option for the one off oddities, but that does seem to be a sport not many want to partake in these days. Hence my suggestions of variations that could be produced. I am slipping I forgot to suggest D1529 with its vertical radiator grilles.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎07‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 12:46, WisTramwayMan said:

...Making sure the...motors don't self-destruct...

I'd like to know the proportion of failures of the standard 'large motor' that Heljan have employed in all their full body width twin bogie models, since they launched in the UK with the 47. If there's one aspect of these models that comes in for consistent praise it is the drive, and reports of motor problems are very rare. (As indeed they are for the similar motors Bachmann and Hornby have put in their similar models. If we can just stay away from coreless, and have good size iron core motors for evermore, then all will be well on this front...)

 

20 hours ago, rob D2 said:

...its almost like they have decided to be the Tesco of the MR world, allowing others to be the Waitrose and Lidl respectively 

Well, if your business aim is to have the largest turnover and profit, then that's a good decision. Doesn't bar the way to others aiming to be 'the best' in other respects.

[stewartingram]

4 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

Slightly off-topic perhaps, but actually, I would argue that the fruit and veg from Lidl is in fact way superior to that available at the standard supermarkets, especially compared to some of the wilting, top price veg I've seen on some of Tesco's shelves.   Lidl is way cheaper too and therefore their fresh produce appears to fly off the shelf far quicker, is replenished faster, which again means fresher produce all round, and so the cycle continues...  

 

High-end supermarket 'snobbery' will certainly mean you pay higher prices but it is foolish to assume that it will necessarily translate to better quality.  Learn to shop around... 

 

No snobbery here - just practical common sense.

We had a largish Co-op in town (the only supermarket really), there were (not any more though) a couple of other small ones. Co-op pulled out, Aldi moved in. Of course we went in a few times; the wife still occasionally visits "when she has to". I've tried the fresh stuff, doesn't appeal to me (We live in the Fens, get our vegetables fresh off the land), Packaged food, nowhere near the choice of the other supermarkets, so no reason to buy those. But the real killer for me is the "toy aisle" in the centre. What rubbish! In the early days I bought a few things, but they all turned out to be wasted money. So I have a very low opinion of the store.

I also am aware of a few other trade titbits.

Mother-in-law at one time worked in a large local vegetable packing place. There was absolutely NO difference in what was packed for each supermarket chain. They were given a box of bags to fill for one brand, when that was empty they were given a box of bags for another chain. The veggies in the same trays went in.

My daughter works at Tesco in Stock Control - she has told me of some of the things. Now I can't remember actual brands, but say Baked Beans or Corn Flakes, they sell a number of different brands in store; all supplied from the same place. Some have slightly different specs but the majority don't (she has been told this a number of times from Tesco offices higher up).

We had a Tesco store built in our town, then abandoned. Eventually they launched their new Jacks brand there in competition with Aldi & Lidl. Again I have another daughter working there. Jacks own brand stuff is usually Tesco own brand in a different carton but cheaper (due to the no frills operation of Jacks).

Also, a long while ago I was introduced to a "store" in Wisbech that sold stock in bulk at cheap prices. This stock was usually damaged (outer) boxes, store closures etc. He had a yard, with an entrance either end. I've turned up there when a lorry/van has backed into each entrance, and the boxes were being shifted from one to the other. Cans of (I forget the real names) Heinz beans in a damaged carton being taken to a repackaging place. Labels would be removed, and Nisa (or similar) labels put on, and placed into a new carton.

Stewart

 

 

4 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

 

[adb968008]

Now for off the wall suggestions...

but a Cuban 47, 47601 and 47901...

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Now for off the wall suggestions...

but a Cuban 47, 47601 and 47901...

Hi 968008

 

The Cuban "Clayton" type 4s were class 48s not 47.

 

Hope this helps Heljan when they make the 47/6. The 47/9 has a different roof and to date I have not scribbled a picture of it yet. 

 

 

And a class 48, again I haven't done the Cuban locos.

 

 

[MGR Hooper!]

I read somewhere that 2020 is the 60th anniversary since the introduction of the Class 47 and 100th anniversary for Hornby.

 

I wonder if Hornby have one in the works and if so, has this prompted Heljan to announce a OO gauge one as well???

[No Decorum]

9 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi 968008

 

The Cuban "Clayton" type 4s were class 48s not 47.

 

Hope this helps Heljan when they make the 47/6. The 47/9 has a different roof and to date I have not scribbled a picture of it yet. 

 

 

And a class 48, again I haven't done the Cuban locos.

 

 

This is brilliant stuff – thank you for the link. I’ve never found any clear details of the 48 roof before, although Brush-Sulzer Class 47 Diesel-Electrics, ed. Brian Ringer, Bradford Barton, says that that “From the outside there was little difference in appearance from a Class 47, except for a higher roof panel over the engine which gave a slightly greater overall height.” It seems that there was more to it than that. Very well done on your part for tackling such an obscure subject.

 

I particularly like your method of renumbering. Far easier than messing about with cocktail sticks, cotton buds or T-cut. 

[Pete the Elaner]

21 hours ago, dj_crisp said:

I hope they just get the shape right... especially the front windows which'll make or break this release for me

On a similar note, I had a chat with Ben at Crewe about the forthcoming O gauge class 50. I had similar concerns over the front windows for this.

 

I was impressed with Ben's enthusiasm & attitude for attention to detail. I am sure he will put the same into a new OO 47.

[No Decorum]

7 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

I read somewhere that 2020 is the 60th anniversary since the introduction of the Class 47 and 100th anniversary for Hornby.

 

I wonder if Hornby have one in the works and if so, has this prompted Heljan to announce a OO gauge one as well???

You might well be right. However, Hornby has a Railroad standard tooling (actually two) and, going by the undoubted success of churning out 66s, followed by 59s and 92s, all to Railroad specs, I fancy that Hornby will go for the quick profit. Still, you never know what Mr. Kohler might be planning. If he is planning a new 47, he’ll have to do a much better job on the lighting and providing for DCC than hitherto or my cash will go elsewhere.

[Ian Hargrave]

2020 sadly is not the 47’s 60th. IIRC it emerged 1962/63 ?