All-new Heljan 47 in 00 gauge

[Clive Mortimore]

32 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Or it catches the platforms...…………...

Hi Mick

 

If the body is catching the platforms then the platforms are too high.

Just saying......

[newbryford]

7 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Mick

 

If the body is catching the platforms then the platforms are too high.

Just saying......

 

That looks like the north end of P6 at Preston......

 

I have amended my post.

[Zunnan]

18 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

People should not bemoan Heljan for doing this. The company is back and looking to make a step change in accuracy and detail as it moves forwards, thanks due to a lot of Ben's input. Other companies have shown that they have the ability to enter the market and overtake both the leading companies for new models, with Dapol and the 68 and with Realtrack with the 156. Heljan could be about to join that list, but I would push for modern liveries to be done sooner rather than later.

 

I agree entirely. Lets not forget that Heljan were the first to market some 17 years ago with their (then) high spec centrally motored DCC ready Tubby duff by some years. At the time Lima had the best 47 on the market and the writing was on the wall for them, with the other alternative being that Hornby effort. 17 years is quite some production span, even though the model hasn't been produced for a while due to what I gather are worn tool issues. Its the model which stamped Heljans name on the UK market, and as the tools are spent its high time for a retool. I remember well my first Tubby Duff, and the several which followed...I kind of preferred them to both the Vi and Bachmann models, although the Vi one always looked better to my eyes.

 

Modern liveries too, but I think Bachmann have this sector well covered as it better fits their penchant for one offs rather than bread and butter common stuff. My lot may be in for plain old banger blues though.

[Pandora]

No excuses for Heljan now, they have retooled the 7mm version,  (JLtRT)

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

...The "tubby" isn't so noticeable until pointed out.

Maybe not to you, but it was instant for me on seeing the model, without having read a review. This because it didn't look like the prototype, in a way that strikingly failed to capture the main element of its character*. And the reason why this mattered to me was that the Brush type 4 was a really different looking loco from the other three high power diesel machines then in operation out of Kings Cross:

EE type 4 (40) a sprawling slab sided lump,

Derby type 4 (44/45) a sprawling and plug ugly lump,

EE type 5 (55) huge and bulgy, although very impressive in other respects,

Brush type 4 (47) neat petite, the exterior treatment was a class act.

 

Despite the very desirable centre motor drive - and I ran in quite a number for friends, usually with decoder fitting to follow - I just couldn't go for a model that was so wrong and thereby failed to capture the most essential aspect of the prototype's character. The prospects for reworking were not appealing, so the money went on the flood of other products then coming to market.

 

*Not long after, Hornby managed the same deed with the Brush type 2, inflicting on it a shape error that destroys it as a model. (My first criterion, does it convincingly look like the prototype? If the answer is no, and there is no way to easily correct it; that's it, not a model, don't purchase. By rigorous application of this criterion, I accidentally missed out on the two major Mazak rot incidents: truth is beauty and all that.) How long before this one comes in for an upgrade model?

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

13 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Modern image ? Yeah, I’m sure they’ll do a BR blue one, don’t panic !

 

Maybe 853 would be a good one to do as it's still on the mainline and now in BR Blue. Also ex DRS so now doubt the interest is their in this particular loco from it's previous career. 

 

13 hours ago, rob D2 said:

It’s a never ending debate, but are “ modern “ ones good sellers ?

the anglia 47 doesn’t appear to be for Bachmann.

 

Everything seems to change so quick , and what are the chances of seeing a real one these days unless you actually chase after them ?

 

I see your point. Personally I think some different West Coast 47s would sell well. There are differences between the West Coast 47s and I know that JDM Models offer the Bachmann ones with mods done to cater for customers who didn't want the Bachmann 245 and wanted accurate and correct detail. 826 could be done with Scarborough Spa Express branding and maybe I don't know 851 and/or 854. I think all three of these are still in service. These particular three would interest me as they are 47/8s. As I say accounting for particular details of specific locos may also make them more appealing because they are different in their own unique ways. So maybe a couple/a few West Coast ones would be good sellers. 

 

As for other modern 47s I'm not sure. ViTrains have produced 501 & 802 in DRS as well as the Rail Exclusive five 790, 810, 813, 832 & 853. Bachmann have also produced 805 in DRS. So that doesn't leave that many DRS examples not already modelled. 

 

ViTrains have produced all three Colas versions 727, 739 & 749, whilst Heljan have also modelled 749 I think themselves and more recently Bachmann have done 727. 

 

Personally as much as I would love these particular models to be produced I just don't think that they would sell in sufficient numbers. FL 830 & ROG 812, 813, 815, 843, 847 & 848. The latter three haven't seen use in a while and are currently stored. ViTrains have already produced 813 in DRS. I can't see say 500+ models of 812 or 815 selling. It doesn't help because they mainly work with DMUs and EMUs and most of them aren't available in ready to run form in OO Gauge currently. 

 

As nice as the LSL ones are I'm not sure that they would sell, just because 501, 790/593, 805, 810 & 853 have all been modelled previously by ViTrains & Bachmann. The only LSL 47 that hasn't been modelled is 841 which has recently been repainted into Intercity livery but hasn't yet entered service. 

 

Along with the West Coast 47s I think the GBRf 47s would sell. 727 is in Caledonian Sleeper Teal & 739 in GBRf Blue & 749 in BR Blue. Accurascale are producing CS MK5 stock so 727 maybe of interest to those modellers. Not really sure what 739 and 749 are going to be used for yet but I reckon they would sell based on their livery. Was it 727 & 749 that were used on a GBRf charter a few weeks ago? If so with the range of MK2s currently available by Hornby and Bachmann their is scope to form a rake of coaches either prototypical or nearly prototypical. 

 

Just to sum up I think the West Coast & GBRf 47s would be the most popular. I'm not saying that other ones couldn't be modelled but maybe Heljan might want to avoid duplication loco numbers at least to start off with. I suppose it all really depends upon how many modern 47s they intend on producing. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by DRS Crewe On A Mission

[rob D2]

If it’s good, I’d be pleased if they went down the route of some common ones , without numbers to do yourself .

[dj_crisp]

No number or nameplates would be great.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

26 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

If it’s good, I’d be pleased if they went down the route of some common ones , without numbers to do yourself .

 

That's a good idea. Good for the BR Green & BR Blue examples. As for modern examples an un-numbered DRS Compass 47 maybe a good seller. Maybe even an un-numbered West Coast 47/8. Although that would depend upon the individual detailing/features on the real life locos as I know that they differ. Although I suppose if a few are the same, or very nearly identical this could be an option. 

[Zunnan]

They did un-numbered models before, and they didn't do too well from what I gather, bit of a slow burner. I remember my then local shop passing on a fair few to the box shifters as they just weren't moving. As much as I'd like to see this too, I think past experience will mean it's unlikely to happen again. Having said that, Dapol seem to have done well with their un-numbered 08s, but then the O crowd are quite different to the mainstream 00 buyers.

[adb968008]

29 minutes ago, Zunnan said:

They did un-numbered models before, and they didn't do too well from what I gather, bit of a slow burner. I remember my then local shop passing on a fair few to the box shifters as they just weren't moving. As much as I'd like to see this too, I think past experience will mean it's unlikely to happen again. Having said that, Dapol seem to have done well with their un-numbered 08s, but then the O crowd are quite different to the mainstream 00 buyers.

Dapols class 52’s are effectively that, aside of a few limited editions, everything is fit yourself... Theyve sold many times over now.

 

Heljan seem to have unnumbered 45’s as an option in their 2019 announcement....

Unless hattons are doing it...

https://www.hattons.co.uk/464300/heljan_45107hel_class_45_0_peak_in_br_with_no_yellow_panels_and_split_centre_headcode_unnumbere/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by adb968008

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, Zunnan said:

They did un-numbered models before, and they didn't do too well ...

The winning solution is surely Bachmann's. Print numbers and other unique identifiers in a paint readily removed by a solvent which has no effect on the main body colour. That way every model is both numbered (majority of market covered) and unnumbered, because any of the minority up for renumbering can surely remove the numbers. A forward thinking manufacturer might even include such information in the documentation; recommended solvent is XXX.

[Phil Bullock]

3 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The winning solution is surely Bachmann's. Print numbers and other unique identifiers in a paint readily removed by a solvent which has no effect on the main body colour. That way every model is both numbered (majority of market covered) and unnumbered, because any of the minority up for renumbering can surely remove the numbers. A forward thinking manufacturer might even include such information in the documentation; recommended solvent is XXX.

 

And combine that with easily changed headcodes for an even better option.

 

 

[cravensdmufan]

22 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Maybe not to you, but it was instant for me on seeing the model, without having read a review. This because it didn't look like the prototype, in a way that strikingly failed to capture the main element of its character

 

Very much agree.  I didn't like it as soon as I saw it.

 

Not only the body width but the shape of the front windscreens looked too square IMO.

 

So I'm looking forward to this all new version.  But having said that I don't like mixing different manufacturers' locos of the same class on the same layout,  Problem is, I have 15 Bachmann 47s which look good to me......

 

Edited July 11, 2019 by cravensdmufan
Spelling

[dj_crisp]

It's probably fair to say that there hasn't been a 47 released with the front looking right. (It's really obvious when you try to stick on some shawplan frames and the amount of filing needed for window frames). Otherwise I don't think Heljan will have bothered releasing this. I think both Bachmann and Vitrains can be made to look ok - but as I'm finding there is a fair amount of work needed!

 

Really hoping Heljan pull this off this time and they release a few NSE examples

[Waverley West]

14 minutes ago, cravensdmufan said:

Problem is, I have 15 Bachmann 47s which look good to me......

 

I think this is the biggest challenge the new Heljan 47 will have to face. I have a similar sized fleet of Bachmann 47s and am very happy with them. 

 

It's going to have to be good and have some kind of wow factor which will make people switch over. I doubt just being a good model is going to be enough.

 

I was never totally convinced by the old Heljan 47 either, especially once the Bachmann version came out, as it highlighted the main errors of the Heljan one for me - the excessive body width and the overly square windscreens. It was still a good model for its time though, not to mention very smooth and powerful. I still have a few old favourites which I'm reluctant to part with.

 

Probably my biggest gripe with the Bachmann version is the over-sized domino dots in the headcode on certain models/ends.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

37 minutes ago, Waverley West said:

...It's going to have to be good and have some kind of wow factor which will make people switch over...

Quite so. I have one (1) Bachmann Brush type 4, D1500 as I first saw it burbling away at KX in 1962. (That brings down the curtain on my modelling march through time, the diesel that is going to complete the killing off of ECML steam.)

 

But then again. I do like trains and give occasional runs to represent a broad spread of UK railway history. I haven't a representative BR diesel period freight at present, and some very fine wagon models have been made available.

 

It is over forty years past, I was on a platform with a railway knowledgeable friend, and a Duff was very audibly approaching: when it came in view it was on oil tankers and it ran through at a speed I have not seen in freight working before or since. Greg had the wit to time it on wagon lengths passing, and came up with 85mph, so somewhere in the 80 -90 range. Now that I might fancy as a model, if there's a knock out, bob on, class 47 on offer...

[rob D2]

21 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Quite so. I have one (1) Bachmann Brush type 4, D1500 as I first saw it burbling away at KX in 1962. (That brings down the curtain on my modelling march through time, the diesel that is going to complete the killing off of ECML steam.)

 

But then again. I do like trains and give occasional runs to represent a broad spread of UK railway history. I haven't a representative BR diesel period freight at present, and some very fine wagon models have been made available.

 

It is over forty years past, I was on a platform with a railway knowledgeable friend, and a Duff was very audibly approaching: when it came in view it was on oil tankers and it ran through at a speed I have not seen in freight working before or since. Greg had the wit to time it on wagon lengths passing, and came up with 85mph, so somewhere in the 80 -90 range. Now that I might fancy as a model, if there's a knock out, bob on, class 47 on offer...

85 mph on oil tankers ? I doubt it greatly.

IIRC limit is 60 mph 

[cravensdmufan]

29 minutes ago, dogbox321 said:

Whilst the cad-cams look promising (second time lucky perhaps), unfortunately I have developed a dislike to Heljan after the first Class 47, Class 33's, Class 52, Bayer Garratt, Clayton, Class 58 & Class 86, where there have all been issues

 

Unfortunately, I have to agree with that.  Earlier Heljan stuff never looked quite right to me (and I include O gauge in that statement e.g their 47, Deltic and Mk1s looked very wrong and the 37 bodyside windows are set at the wrong level).  Quite how they got so many things looking weird I don't know,  That's why out of my fleet of some 75 4mm diesels and electrics, only 2 are Heljan (a 26 and a 58).

 

They really needed someone to check things out thoroughly before final production;  now that  Ben is on board I reckon future releases will be much better.

Edited July 12, 2019 by cravensdmufan
Spelling

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, dogbox321 said:

Whilst the cad-cams look promising (second time lucky perhaps), unfortunately I have developed a dislike to Heljan after the first Class 47, Class 33's, Class 52, Bayer Garratt, Clayton, Class 58 & Class 86, where there have all been issues.  So not bothered!  Would have much preferred someone else to have a go.  For the same reason, the Class 11/Class 12 won't bother either. 

 

Regards,

 

C. 

Hi C

 

There have been some really great models from Heljan, the Gloucester parcels car, the Hymek, the NBL D84xx, the BRCW Type 2, the Wagonbasher railbus and Lion. What else have I got, DP2, the BTH, Baby Deltic........perhaps you do have a point.

 

Seriously some of their models have been wonderful and others, well DP2 put me off of pre-ordering anything. Sad in many ways because when the do a model that looks right they can't be beaten. All we can hope for is the Peak and the 47 are good ones.

[WisTramwayMan]

5 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi C

 

There have been some really great models from Heljan, the Gloucester parcels car, the Hymek, the NBL D84xx, the BRCW Type 2, the Wagonbasher railbus and Lion. What else have I got, DP2, the BTH, Baby Deltic........perhaps you do have a point.

 

Seriously some of their models have been wonderful and others, well DP2 put me off of pre-ordering anything. Sad in many ways because when the do a model that looks right they can't be beaten. All we can hope for is the Peak and the 47 are good ones.

At  least when a model looks wrong then you can tell before you buy it (via either pre-release pics or physical inspection) whether you can live with that. It's when it looks right but has substandard mechanisms that's worse. You buy it, full of hope, and days, weeks, months later it self destructs (motor/gear tower issues on some models and fragile valve gear on the L&B locos being prime examples). I refer to my earlier comment, test the things thoroughly, don't leave the product development and QA to the customers....

[adb968008]

8 hours ago, dogbox321 said:

Whilst the cad-cams look promising (second time lucky perhaps), unfortunately I have developed a dislike to Heljan after the first Class 47, Class 33's, Class 52, Bayer Garratt, Clayton, Class 58 & Class 86, where there have all been issues.  So not bothered!  Would have much preferred someone else to have a go.  For the same reason, the Class 11/Class 12 won't bother either. 

 

Regards,

 

C. 

That glass is half empty, but there is another way of looking at it...

 

At the time of their inception, the models on offer were superior to their predecessors... your comparing the above to their “at the time” market Peers.. Lima 33,47,52 and Hornby 47, 58 and no equal for a garratt and 17... indeed the pricing of the Garratt was very good, the 17 has been done dozens of times and consistently sell out, so they cant be that bad. 

 

With most modern image types previously modelled, and at high detail, the bar in the future has to be higher in the past.. It would appear Heljan recognised that with their recent staff hires, and having met the man in person twice I am giving the benefit of doubt to the future.. plus he's a fellow ex-northerner too.

 

Give the future a chance.

[The Ghost of IKB]

Heljans problem in years gone by was not to respond to criticism and correct flaws that were pointed out in development. Hopefully with Ben on board this wont be such a problem.  

Looking back at the models there have been some excellent models,  and others that were flawed in some way, often a misunderstanding of a basic shape or dimension, but usually in comparison to what was available they have still raised the bar, eg helj 47 competed with lima, which needed a lot of detailing and a new mechanism and the ancient Hornby 47, which i think at that point still had two horizontal 3d painting guides along the body.  Heljan 33 compared with lima, even the 76 was better than went before.(although was tarnished by sheffield money grabbing) 

Lets hope this one will be spot on. A definitive 47 or two (or 10)  would have a place on many many layouts.

[MGR Hooper!]

Recently I've had my faith restored in Heljan based on a few instances...

• Firstly, their Class 07 shunter, to say it's a remarkable model is an understantement. That little model is an absolutely stunner and if I had the money I'd buy as many as I could.
• The Class 86's pre-production samples shown off recently are certainly an improvement over the first samples released a few months prior and certain a vast improvement over their older Class 86s.
• Secondly, not only did I think Ben Jones would make a difference, he actually proved it. Best example is the Class 86. I was quite vocal about the incorrect pantograph in the CAD images and the pre-production sample that followed.
• The fact that they decided to re-tool the Class 47 and Class 86 says a lot. They could've just as easily created new tools from existing CAD and re-released the model with little or no improvement. But they've gone through the trouble of re-tooling fully.

Top marks to Heljan, my faith in company has been restored. Be it because of Ben Jones or the entire company awakening from their slumber.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Bachmann owing to a number of faulty models and what's IMO weird design logic, so I've always had ViTrains to look to for a Class 47 (and they're quite rare now). Thankfully Heljan have come in. I'll gladly buy a few Heljan Class 47s.

[Roy Langridge]

I am in the wait and see camp, probably the 25 being the first test for Ben’s influence. As has been said Heljan have produced some cracking models alongside some absolute mares. That said, news that parts of the Manning Wardle have been redesigned for the next batch shows promise. 

 

The still need to up their game though. Yes the 07 is good, but DCC provision is poor. Getting into one is rather a game of luck as you can be left with a jigsaw puzzle of bits to reattach. 

 

But I am hopeful, but won’t be pre-ordering yet. 

 

Roy